Separate Engine Survey?

We're preparing for a survey on a DF 44 next month. What's the consensus on the usefulness of a separate engine survey on Ford Lehman 135s? I have djmarchand's excellent summary of things to look at (http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/engine-survey-checklist-13125.html).

Just wondering what a mechanic would be allowed to do that my experienced hull surveyor and I can't accomplish. The surveyor routinely pulls oil for analysis and we can perform most of the things on a checklist for these non-turbo engines. Is there significantly more peace of mind with a dedicated engine survey?

Thanks.

It really depends on how knowledgeable that surveyor is on those engines. Someone who specializes in working on and surveying that particular engine will be typically be more thorough and familiar with odd-ball low percentage issues that a generalist may not be aware of or know how to diagnose. Kind of like your GP being able to tell you a lot about your heart's health from a physical, but needing to defer to a cardiologist for the most accurate and complete evaluation.

IMHO, I'm not sure what a specific engine survey could do without really digging into the motor, and that would likely be a tough sell to a seller. There are some basic things that can be checked for as shown in your linked list, but you also need to be careful that engine surveyors (and even the regular ones) would be putting current standards on an old boat. Yes, the argument could be made that a seller that has nothing to hide would allow it (and I probably would), but a good oil analysis says a lot. In fact, sometimes TOO much.

Still, while I don't want to paint with too large of a brush, you can almost tell the condition of a motor by looking at two things: the condition of the rest of the boat and how clean the engine is. A well-maintained boat USUALLY means a well-maintained engine too. Not always though. Liveaborards that don't leave the dock very often will sometimes just ignore the engine space, but keep the living space nice. Moreover, a clean engine and engine room almost always indicates a well cared for motor. But look out for overly or freshly painted motors. Sellers with ugly motors sometimes try to polish a turd with a fresh and heavy coat of paint.

One thing is for sure, no matter how you slice it, the old Lehman and Perkins motors are tough old birds. Give them food, water and a little TLC once or twice a year and they will do their thing for a very long time. However, if it were ME, let the regular survey go through and see if ANY red flags are raised from their engine analysts. THEN decide if you need to dig deeper into an engine-specific survey. That's the best advice I can give you.

I agree that if you are somewhat mechanically oriented you don't need a seperate enigne survey for those engines.
A MUST though, would be to make a call to Bob Smith at ADC (American Diesel Corp) and get a list of specifics to look at for that engine.
Take lots of pics.

Thanks, guys. I forgot to mentions few things in my rush to get out the door this morning.

Engines purportedly have 3250 hours on them, but the hour meters broke and I believe were replaced a long time ago. Maintenance on the rest of the boat appears exceptional.

A Westerbeke 12.5 KW generator would be part of the survey. Same late 80s vintage with about 2500 hours.

I don't think I would bother with a separate engine survey on lehmans. Like everyone said, you should be able to tell the general health of the engine by looking at a number of symptoms likely addressed in DJ's list.

I would have the mechanical survey. Between the engines and the generator, having a qualified mechanic could be money well spent. How much time will your other surveyor have to spend crawling around the generator and engines? During the sea trial is maybe a good time to have to mechanic in the engine room monitoring things. Considering the size of the purchase your about to make...

Take a look at Marine Survey 101. Scroll way, way down to the section headed "Engine Compartment". You'll find a few tips about what to look for before making a decision on an full engine survey which could hit close to $1,000 including compression testing.

I had it done, if for no other reason - peace of mind. In the overall cost of boat ownership the fee for the inspection by a diesel mechanic is pretty much unnoticeable.

And, your survey goes much faster as you have 2 guys working simultaneously if you schedule properly.

Greetings,
Mr. T. I agree with your observations regarding ER conditions as being an indicator of overall vessel conditions. Although not in the market to buy at this particular time I do browse boat ads on and off this site. Usually the first photos I look at are ER's (IF POSTED AT ALL). No ER pic's, no further perusal of the ad. A "Hmmm...moment" for me is rattle can over-spray.
That being said, appearances alone should not determine the necessity of a good engine survey. As Mr. Lurker said. It might add to piece of mind.

When I bought my Willard 40 with single Lehman, I had oil samples taken and inspected the engine with my surveyor -- what we thought was a simple valve adjustment turned out to be a "piston slap" in the #6 cylinder (result of over heating). The hour meter read 3900 hours. Regrettably, I didn't learn this until a month after buying the boat. We ended up repowering with the American Diesel Corp N6-140 (Lehman). No regrets just wish I knew at time of purchase because I could have negotiated a lower purchase price. My recommendation -- spend the money and hire a professional mechanic who is familiar with the older Lehmans.

Larry M said:

I would have the mechanical survey. Between the engines and the generator, having a qualified mechanic could be money well spent. How much time will your other surveyor have to spend crawling around the generator and engines? During the sea trial is maybe a good time to have to mechanic in the engine room monitoring things. Considering the size of the purchase your about to make...

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Larry is absolutely correct. Just get the right engine guy. Me, I'd question a surveyor or internet friend who says a good mechanical guy isn't needed, unless of course you are that very smart mechanical guy.

Four other things:

• A spot oil analysis is largely worthless unless you know for sure the age of the oil in terms of both time and hours. Some very smart diesel guys even question the wisdom of putting too much stock into spot oil analysis on a used vessel. If your surveyor says otherwise I'd not trust him.
• Be sure to do an underway full RPM test. Hold it there for about 5 minutes to check things out, especially any signs of overheating and shaft wobble/vibrations.
• Let the genset run for about 15 minutes at about 80% maximum amp draw to insure it doesn't overheat.
• Insure every water, sewage, electric etc system on the boat works.

• A spot oil analysis is largely worthless unless you know for sure the age of the oil in terms of both time and hours. Some very smart diesel guys even question the wisdom of putting too much stock into spot oil analysis on a used vessel. If your surveyor says otherwise I'd not trust him.

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Agree completely, take a look at "Oil Analysis, worth the money ?"

Re the OP an engine survey would be not seem very necessary. I thought that when I bought Willy but I had one come out and found out about wet liners and leaking O rings. That and our move to Alaska resulted in a repower. So you never know what you're going to find.

One yardstick to help decide is to find out roughly how many boats/engines like the one you're looking at have been repowered. And of course the reason for the repower would be very usable information. Also the guy you may be dealing w may seem like a great PO but the ove before him could have been a jerk and a mechanical "Careless Carl". Re the OP the well known Lehman may seem dependable and durable. But perhaps the PO overheated it numerous times and made no record of it. Also angus99 reading the discussions in the past about repowering options and cost may very well lead you straight to a good engine survey.

The cost of the engine surveyor was easily worth the lower renegotiated price. He actually did all of the mechanical systems, made recommendations, and gave cost estimates for repair. The engine was a fairly oddball BMW. I ended up repowering shortly after purchase. But did it knowingly.

Well I am the author of the referenced checklist. I am a decent shade tree mechanic and after owning marine diesels for 20 years and following boatdiesel religiously for half of that time I think I can do it myself.

But.... If I found anything suspicious that I didn't understand I would either walk away from the deal or hire a real engine surveyor to get to the bottom of it. But I would quiz him carefully about his approach and skills before doing so.

Whether you do it yourself or hire a mechanic largely depends on your level of understanding of the issues. If you understand the checklist and more importantly the rationale behind them, then you can probably do it yourself.

I am working with a guy right now that I met on boatdiesel. He recently did an engine survey on a boat with twin Yanmar 4LHs. He insisted on his surveyor removing the exhaust elbow to look inside the turbo. He found years of seawater intrusion and corrosion. That survey will save him thousands of $.

You will probably never get a seller to agree to such disassembly by yourself; only with a qualified engine mechanic.

Older Lehmans and Perkins can run almost forever but they do have their own problems like manicooler leaks.

David

djmarchand said:

Well I am the author of the referenced checklist.

David

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Checklist ? did I miss one ? I can't see it in this thread. Always looking for more info.

boatpoker said:

Checklist ? did I miss one ? I can't see it in this thread. Always looking for more info.

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It was in post #1, anyways here ya go- http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/engine-survey-checklist-13125.html

If you are unfamilier with the mechanical sytems

This your golden opportunity to learn from an expert. Ask the surveyor up front to explain the systems and what to watch for. It's your dime get the most from it. When I was looking for my current boat. I paid for a survey on a boat that I backed away from. It needed new heads on both engines. I didn't pick up on the miss. I wanted the boat bad enough that I paid him to
To trouble shoot the miss. We even set the rack on one of the engines. He let do the actual work while supervising me. With the owners permission. I ended backing away for the same boat in better condition. That time spent helped me understand my boat much faster. It also showed me what to look for when I bought my boat. One of my gennies is difficult to get parts for .that knowledge helped negotiate the final selling price.

Look in the lockers and see if Diesel oil , and if needed, Diesel antifreez (with SCA) is onboard.


See if the operator had Da Book , for the engine and tranny , otherwise how does he know the maint requirements.

Ask for the engine maint log. Ask for the oil sample returns for the past decade.


Start it COLD and see what smoke comes out , and for how long.

Thanks, all, for the great advice.

I've learned that the owner has installed air compressor filters on the valve covers to manage, I suppose, blow by.

I've read that a certain amount of blow by is typical for these older engines, but don't know if I should insist on a compression check or not. I will use a mechanic in addition to the surveyor if this proceeds to survey and will try to contact Brian or Bob Smith at American Diesel for an opinion.

Will let you know how it turns out.

Be careful on who you select, get references from others. They must have depth of experience working on the engine involved, and they must have surveying as part of their professional portfolio. That will mean they have a form and format for their surveys, ask to see a few. The really good ones are very articulate and happy to teach you about the engines and how to take care of them. Some will include an after-purchase orientation in their fee, and provide phone support. Good luck!

Angus

It seems you have this well figured out. Let us know how it all turns out after getting our collective "Lehmans need a Swiss watch kinda guy to survey them" knickers in a twist.

We chose to have a engine survey. It was around $500. We took the diesel mechanic and the surveyor along on the sea trial. It proved to be a good choice. During the trial, one of the high pressure lines to an injector failed. The mechanic was the first to notice the smell of fuel. We shut the engine down and found fuel sprayed liberally around the engine room. The seller paid for the repair and cleanup.

Another twist.

I spoke with Brian Smith, at American Diesel, (a guru on the Ford Lehman) who said he would NOT recommend an engine survey unless the sea trial showed problems with either engine reaching or sustaining full RPMs, running hot or having poor oil pressure. He said any competent surveyor should be able to identify if there is a problem in any of these areas because the Lehmans are such basic, naturally aspirated engines. (he wasn't speaking for all diesels.) He also did not recommend a compression test because they are "intrusive," requiring partial disassembly on the Lehman, and compression problems would likely evidence themselves elsewhere. If either engine fails the sea trial, that would be the time to call in a mechanic.

He strongly advocated oil analyses on the crank cases of the engines and generator as well as the two transmissions. Most important, he said: read the analyses, compare them to prior analyses and ask questions.

So, the world turns and the stomach churns . . .

This is what I know about a diesel compression test:

Measured values are highly variable for several reasons: cranking rpms, but just as importantly diesel rings don't seal unless significant ie combustion pressures are applied. Many manufacturer's refuse to publish a spec.

Paul Foulston a former Cummins developmental engineer said on boatdiesel that diesels can show good compression almost up until the day they croak (my words). He believes that compression testing is a total waste of money and is promoted by the uninformed.

A compression test can be useful to isolate one bad piston. But there are easier ways like cracking the injector pipes and watching the rpms change.

A blowby test IF THE MANUFACTURER GIVES A PROCEDURE AND SPEC is much more useful. Cummins does this. The blowby test is not very invasive and can be done with an hour of mechanic time. But it takes a specific procedeure- orifice sizes, etc and the manufacturer has to publish a spec.

I suppose that it could be done on any engine, spec or no spec, procedure or no procedure using the Cummins procedure and making adjustments for displacement.

Blowby will definitively tell you if the rings are bad. A related test is leakdown- pressure up a cyinder and see how long it takes for the pressure to bleed down.

I suspect that both are done by smart mechanics and the results are interpreted based on their experience.

David

Taking a measurement doesn't make any sense if there is no standard to judge it by. And I certainly would take American Diesel's Brian's advice very seriously. My personal experience with surveys, most recently with Detroit 2 stroke 8v92Tis is that there is a raft of standards, and the complete surveys were absolutely invaluable when done by specialists in same. So i wouldn't/shouldn't make generalizations about surveys. My personal bent would be to hire a mechanic to give the initial once over unless the hull surveyor has a deep experience in the engines at hand, with plenty of boater references.

If the engine starts easily when cold it doesn't have a compression problem.

angus99 said:

So, the world turns and the stomach churns . . .

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Ahh, the acid reflux due to over analyzing. It is not our decision, not our money, not our "why didn't I" thoughts after the fact - all these are yours.


And, you can not do a pre purchase engine survey after you buy the boat.

RickB said:

If the engine starts easily when cold it doesn't have a compression problem.

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The voice of reason speaks. Thanks.