On demand hot water?

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Wilson

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2014
Messages
67
Location
USA
Vessel Name
COWBUOY
Vessel Make
1974 chb
Is there any reason why a person would not want to use an on demand type hot water heater for their boat? I'd like to have some hot water, but I really don't need very much of it at all, hand washing, dishes... Pulled out the generator, electric stove, electric water heater. Probably put in a propane stove, water heater if necessary, but the on demand heater seems like a good idea to me. Feel free to tell me why I am wrong in wanting something that simple cause I don't know better, just yet.
 
Is there any reason why a person would not want to use an on demand type hot water heater for their boat? I'd like to have some hot water, but I really don't need very much of it at all, hand washing, dishes... Pulled out the generator, electric stove, electric water heater. Probably put in a propane stove, water heater if necessary, but the on demand heater seems like a good idea to me. Feel free to tell me why I am wrong in wanting something that simple cause I don't know better, just yet.

On demand is nice for light usage- as long as you're dockside. Once you are away from land, you're SOL, as you have no genset, nor do you have the heat exchanger found in a marine water heater. Propane is an option, albeit a spendy one.

Any reason why you're shying away from the standard marine water heater?
 
Don't want to get into "fried my engine cause of my water heater" type issues that I have been reading about. Hot water is just not that important on this boat. I just want some at times. I'll have a fairly decent amount of batter power on board, couple big D's and a few deep cycle. I don't see why I couldn't run an on demand system off battery power seeing as how the alternator should be charging the batteries as we go along anyway. I could be wrong, thats why I asked is all. On demand systems are pretty cheap as well. My parents run an entire house off battery power in baja, find it hard to believe I couldn't run a boat the same way...
 
The small propane units do work, but have a problem when showering.

It tales observed water flow for the HW burner to come on , so when taking a sailor shower , wet down , stop the water, lather up, scrub , then turn on the water for a rinse.The burner will be off while scrubbing so the first shot of water will be cold. None of the propane units are marine grade , there are loads of thin parts to each.

An all conditions vent must also be installed

IF you have enough propane a shower/tub diverter can be installed and the heated water piped back into the FW tank rather than running down the drain.

The Std metal HW heater with an engine loop is fine and will seldom if ever do harm to the engine. And its nice not to have to light a device ,just to wash your hands at night.
 
I'd like to have some hot water, but I really don't need very much of it at all, hand washing, dishes... Pulled out the generator, electric stove, electric water heater. Probably put in a propane stove, water heater if necessary...


Just put the kettle on...

-Chris
 
Don't want to get into "fried my engine cause of my water heater" type issues that I have been reading about.

I don't understand this? Energy-wise, there are very few free things in life, and hot water heated off a running engine is one of them. And I've never heard of an engine being damaged by an attached hot water heater.

Getting back to propane, FF covered a bunch of the idiosyncrasies of on demand water heaters. Another consideration is that a lot of standards have been developed over the years to protect against explosions from leaking propane. One of them, embodied in the ABYC standards, is that BOTH the intake air and the exhaust need to be connected exclusively to the outside of the boat, and away from other openings to the boat. That way of the burner malfunctions in some way (like it doesn't light), the spilled propane will dump outside the boat, not inside. An on demand heater doesn't meet this requirement, and would likely get flagged by an insurance surveyor. Consider this not only for the safety of your own boat, but for the safety of all the boats around your that are at risk if yours has a problem.
 
I looked into this option and will be doing the on demand. Although I have lots of space top side for the exterior tank and bottles and 1k gallons of fw to run. I would think the need would dictate what direction you would go.
 
I installed a Takagi TK3 tankless water heater in our home
4 years ago. We Love It. We are Never out of hot water.
Temperatures are easy to adjust. Intake air and exhaust travel
thru 4" stainless steel combo pipe. Easy to install, but it does
require both propane and 120 volt power. They are rather expensive
and when I'm ready to drop that extra cash, we will have one on
our trawler.
 
Don't want to get into "fried my engine cause of my water heater" type issues that I have been reading about. Hot water is just not that important on this boat. I just want some at times. I'll have a fairly decent amount of batter power on board, couple big D's and a few deep cycle. I don't see why I couldn't run an on demand system off battery power seeing as how the alternator should be charging the batteries as we go along anyway. I could be wrong, thats why I asked is all. On demand systems are pretty cheap as well. My parents run an entire house off battery power in baja, find it hard to believe I couldn't run a boat the same way...

That water heater needs a lot of electrical power. You would need a bilge full of batteries and a humongous inverter to power it and the engine's alternator would take many hours to recharge the batteries. It's simply not practical on most boats unless you have a genset.

There is nothing wrong with heating water using engine coolant and it's "free".

Look around at other boats, especially production boats. These people have figured out what works and what doesn't. They have already considered what you are proposing and figured out that it's not the best solution.
 
I don't understand this? Energy-wise, there are very few free things in life, and hot water heated off a running engine is one of them. And I've never heard of an engine being damaged by an attached hot water heater.

I'll second that. It is hardly a concern. There are many engine installations that use the "waste heat" from coolant to perform work elsewhere and none of them are a threat to the engine, except on boating forums.
 
Had a propane one on our last boat and it's in a dumpster in Norfolk. Would never have another one. Problem was trying to control temperature because the burner is either on or off. Most miserable showers ever.

Bob
 
Water heaters plumbed to engines can cause engine cooling problems. Rare, but I have seen it happen.

But just a few common sense precautions eliminate the risk. Just make sure circuit is bled and hoses warm with engine. And keep a close eye on coolant level until engine has gone through a couple thermal cycles. Critical when adding the WH or if coolant is drained for any reason.

If you pay mind to the above, it will not hurt your engine. Way better system than propane. That stuff is dangerous in a boat no matter how you do it.
 
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Well this all good information thanks guys. The water heater that I just pulled to check out its condition was a 3 gallon capable of being plumbed to the engine coolant. The PO had hoses on the tank, but it looks like it was never plumbed to the engine. I'm gonna guess that he could not figure out where to tie it in at. I would also have to look around a bit to figure it out. The tank looks nice inside its rusted box! Of course I can't vouch for the internals of the tank, when I drained it lots of white chunks came out, looked like a crack head was living in my ER... I think I'll try and reuse this tank for now, if I can figure out how to plumb it to the engine.
 
I can't speak to shipboard use, but I know something about it on the land-based side and some things are just down to the laws of physics.

Bottom line is that it takes quite a bit of energy to rapidly heat something, water included. To heat it rapidly enough to allow a shower...?

On land that often means up-sizing your gas manifold and piping quite a bit. Or, hooking into a fairly significant electrical circuit; at least 30-35amp and maybe more than 50amp, depending on how much flow you want.

FWIW, electric is more efficient at pretty much 100% or as close to it as physics lets you get. Gas is more like 80% or so, although since you'd be talking propane on a boat and not NG, you'd get more out of it. Plus of course, if you go electric on a boat you've got the generator to supply electricity as long as you have fuel.

I'm neither arguing for or against anything here...
As I said... I can't even begin to speak to what works on boats instead of land since I am still pretty much at the beginning of my learning curve.


I will say this however...
If you have room for it a solar hot water panel might be something to look at. I know that Heliatos makes them for marine use and I doubt they are the only one.

I grew up with solar hot water and it is amazing how well it works.
 
......... FWIW, electric is more efficient at pretty much 100% or as close to it as physics lets you get. Gas is more like 80% or so, although since you'd be talking propane on a boat and not NG, you'd get more out of it. Plus of course, if you go electric on a boat you've got the generator to supply electricity as long as you have fuel............

I'm not buying that for a minute. Short of actually burning dollar bills, running electricity through a resistor to make heat is the most expensive way to make heat. People heat their homes with gas, oil or heat pumps because they are all less costly ways of doing it. Electric resistance heat is the last resort. Nobody uses an electric water heater if gas is an option.

You may make the argument that 100% of the electricity used to heat water (or a building) goes into making heat, but how was that electricity produced? In most parts of the country it is produced by burning fuel to make heat to make steam to turn a generator to produce electricity. Then, it is delivered over hundreds of miles of wire with some loss to be converted back to heat.

Now think of the your last sentence - You advocate burning diesel or gasoline to produce heat to rotate a generator to produce electricity to run through a resistor to produce heat to heat water. Think about that for a minute.

Simplest and most efficient - put the flame under the water and be done with it. Only when that cannot be done should another solution be considered.
 
Greetings,
Mr. Wilson. That crack head may be your sacrificial anode in the water tank. Any oxidation of the anode (either magnesium or aluminum) will produce those white chunks. Good time to check it while the tank is out. Might just need a good wipe down with an abrasive pad (scotchbrite) if it's not too wasted. The anode, NOT the crack head.
 
I had the plastic inlet tube of my home's water heater fail and send little pieces of white plastic all through the water system. I had to clean all the screens and flush all the pipes. This is a possibility here as well.
 
Well this all good information thanks guys. The water heater that I just pulled to check out its condition was a 3 gallon capable of being plumbed to the engine coolant. The PO had hoses on the tank, but it looks like it was never plumbed to the engine. I'm gonna guess that he could not figure out where to tie it in at. I would also have to look around a bit to figure it out. The tank looks nice inside its rusted box! Of course I can't vouch for the internals of the tank, when I drained it lots of white chunks came out, looked like a crack head was living in my ER... I think I'll try and reuse this tank for now, if I can figure out how to plumb it to the engine.

Why reuse an undersized rusty WH with white flakes coming out of it? A new marine WH is not that expensive. It'll come with directions for installation or hire a pro to install it.

Three gallons sure isn't much. I think I spent $300 when I replaced my 11 gal WH with a Force/Kuuma. That was in August 2008.
 
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I have seen quite a few problems related to engines plumbed to water heaters some caused by what I would consider inappropriate applications such as aluminum nipples plumbed to raw water cooled engines. I know of a 3208 that was toasted due to a blown off hose. I suggest valves at the engine so it can be shut off when not needed. You know it won't be a problem until you are pushing hard and at that moment the least of your concerns would be whether there was hot water in the tank or not.

Most of the hands-on guys who lurk around here probably have nothing to worry about. They are paying enough attention to not get caught with bad hoses and clamps on their water heater plumbing.
 
One name the "rag & stick" fraternity here use for powerboats is "hot water boats". Let`s not disturb that. Doriana heats water using coolant from both engines(OP`s Admiral addicted to hot showers?) and the HWS is also served by the genset. Here`s to hot showers, however brief.
 
I'm not buying that for a minute.

Sorry but, that's not my opinion... that's physics. As you yourself observed later in your response, all of the electricity used goes into making heat.



Short of actually burning dollar bills, running electricity through a resistor to make heat is the most expensive way to make heat.

Apples and Oranges. I said electricity is more efficient, which it is. Cost comparisons are a completely different and rather complex analysis.



Electric resistance heat is the last resort. People heat their homes with gas, oil or heat pumps because they are all less costly ways of doing it.
Nobody uses an electric water heater if gas is an option.


That depends on the price of fuel available fuels and the cost of a Kilowatt; both of which have a great deal of regional variance.
Someone living in Arizona and drawing power from Hoover Dam might well come to a different conclusion than someone living in the OH/PA/WV region.

More importantly, I believe we are talking about a BOAT, not a house. I'll come back to that.




You may make the argument that 100% of the electricity used to heat water (or a building) goes into making heat...

Not MAY make. DID make. And it's not an argument, it is a simple statement of fact, no more remarkable that observing that the Earth's gravity at sea level is approximately 9.8 Meters/Second/Second.



...but how was that electricity produced? In most parts of the country it is produced by burning fuel to make heat to make steam to turn a generator to produce electricity. Then, it is delivered over hundreds of miles of wire with some loss to be converted back to heat.

As I said, we're not talking about use in a building on dry land, we're talking about use in a boat. There is therefore, no production of steam, no "Grid Production" generator to turn, and no "Hundreds of Miles" of wire loss to contend with. Nor, for that matter are there transformers, switch yards and all the other accoutrement of a land based power grid.

I was very clear that my understanding of the marine application of this technology was limited and I wished mainly to point out that regardless of whether you use combustion or electricity that it would take quite a bit of energy to heat water quickly enough to give a flow rate of several gallons per minute.




Now think of the your last sentence - You advocate burning diesel or gasoline to produce heat to rotate a generator to produce electricity to run through a resistor to produce heat to heat water. Think about that for a minute.

I did think about it. Respectfully, you should follow your own advice.

In the first place, I didn't "advocate" anything. I merely made a few simple and (I thought), non-controversial observations.

In the SECOND place, if YOU would "think about that for a minute" it might occur to you that unless you are on a sailboat without any backup motive power or electrical generation capacity at all, that you are ALREADY carrying gasoline or diesel and you ALREADY have a generator on board.




Simplest and most efficient - put the flame under the water and be done with it. Only when that cannot be done should another solution be considered.

You know, I am practically a complete land-lubber whose only boating experience has been on a lake; but it seems to me that adding an electrical tankless water heater to a boat that ALREADY has electrical generation capabilities and is ALREADY carrying liquid fuel for that purpose is a lot simpler than adding ANOTHER tank to carry a gaseous fuel to fuel a propane powered "on demand" heater.

Not to mention that a tankless water heater isn't a BBQ. It needs quite a bit more flow capacity to do it's job, which a 20lb BBQ won't provide. At a minimum you'll need a 100 pound tank, and even there... as it gets lower the pressure and flow volume drop. Which will happen faster than you think, because a hundred pound tank holds less than 20 gallons of propane.

So NOW we're talking about adding propane tanks to hold the fuel. Probably three or four 100 pound tanks on a manifold system. Which of course will need to be refueled on a regular basis.

Now as I said, MY only experience with boats in on a Lake. So I don't know... Is a propane pumping station a common thing at the marina's you frequent?



Now that THAT is done with, I am curious as to what I did to earn the dressing down you gave me.

If I have inadvertently done something since arriving here that has offended you, I offer my sincerest apologies and ask only what I can do to make it up to you.

If you were in a bad mood when you responded to my post, I forgive you. It happens.

If you had no intention of coming off as hostile as you did and this is simply a function of the medium; no worries... The written medium can be misleading as to mood and intent.

If all of this is simply my imagination and I was reading a hostility into your post that was never there, then once again, I apologize. As I said, the medium can be misleading.
 
Electric water heat from a gennie is not efficient. A good diesel is about 40% efficient at converting fuel energy into electrical energy. A little boat gennie is probably around 25%. So only 25% of the energy in the diesel makes it into heat in the tank.

But the gennie/elec water heater is simple. And its use is limited. Take a cruising boat and look at the fuel consumed pushing it through the water (lots of gallons) and the amount running the gennie to heat water, however inefficient (few gallons). There are places to save fuel, but heating water with the gennie is not one of them. Keep it simple.

If you can capture heat from a main engine, better yet. But spending a few hundred extra for that heater pays for a lot of gennie fuel. That was my calculus, resulting in a simple electric water heater.
 
I don't see why small electric tankless heater would not work for sporadic needs if boat can generate 25A 120V AC or 3kW over required time of use. Here is the smallest, simplest, and cheapest example I could find in 1 google search: Stiebel Eltron 220816 Mini 3 Point-of-Use Tankless Electric Water Heater - 3.0 kW, 0.40 GPM

But one bummer, "It is designed to be fed with cold water only rather than with hot water flowing into it"

Just wanted to make a note of this,...and follow the discussion.
 
Electric water heat from a gennie is not efficient. A good diesel is about 40% efficient at converting fuel energy into electrical energy. A little boat gennie is probably around 25%. So only 25% of the energy in the diesel makes it into heat in the tank...
If you already run the genset to recharge batteries, or the eutectic fridge/freezer, or to cook, as many do, it can heat water at no or little extra fuel use or genset hours.
 
That was rather my point, made in further paragraphs... It costs very little to heat water with the gennie even though it is not very efficient.
 

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