RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Worth giving some thought to... Netherlands closing 19 prisons due to lack of criminals - endoRIOT
Worth giving some thought to... Netherlands closing 19 prisons due to lack of criminals - endoRIOT
Interesting concept...
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
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Xsbank
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Nope, you guys incarcerate too many folks. That would be entirely your business except our moronic government has a hang 'em high attitude (we don't have capital punishment) and is copying your lead. Our government likes mandatory minimum sentences - fortunately for us, our Supreme Court doesn't.
OP
OP
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. MC. I will be the first to admit I know little about the prison system. The two items in the article that interested me were: Electronic tagging instead of incarceration and reform rather than, or in addition to, punishment as such.
In the first case (tagging), might it not be better to allow non-violent offenders to remain in open society? Monitored of course.
The impression I have, either correctly or incorrectly, is that a person sent to prison in the US comes out a better "criminal" rather than a better "person". I have no idea how much "reforming" is attempted under the DOJ.
I somewhat lean towards the 3 strikes your out idea but only if sufficient attempts at "reform" are available and applied. Meaning don't just take a 1st time offender and jail them, release and repeat then execute. Some people can change with help.
There will always be some percentage who should be eliminated.
This approach will certainly decrease profits for the prison operators but could easily increase profits to society.
Mr. MC. I will be the first to admit I know little about the prison system. The two items in the article that interested me were: Electronic tagging instead of incarceration and reform rather than, or in addition to, punishment as such.
In the first case (tagging), might it not be better to allow non-violent offenders to remain in open society? Monitored of course.
The impression I have, either correctly or incorrectly, is that a person sent to prison in the US comes out a better "criminal" rather than a better "person". I have no idea how much "reforming" is attempted under the DOJ.
I somewhat lean towards the 3 strikes your out idea but only if sufficient attempts at "reform" are available and applied. Meaning don't just take a 1st time offender and jail them, release and repeat then execute. Some people can change with help.
There will always be some percentage who should be eliminated.
This approach will certainly decrease profits for the prison operators but could easily increase profits to society.
What else would you suggest be done with them? Most of these people are career criminals. Out of prison they sell drugs, rob people, rape people, kill people, etc. They can't be rehabilitated. The only way the public is safe from them is if they are locked up.
What would your feelings be if your wife or daughter was raped and killed by someone who was let out of prison by a soft hearted judge?
Steve
Guru
From what I see most of the serious crimes are committed by criminals with long arrest records, they are not worried of going back to jail, indicating the jails are not tough enough. These people are not stealing "food for their families" but money for drugs, good times, etc. And escalating a robbery to killing the victims as sometimes happens again shows they are not afraid of the punishment.
The oil industry companies and others in this area pay well but are complaining because they cannot get enough workers who they can depend on to show up for work as scheduled, or can pass the drug tests.
The oil industry companies and others in this area pay well but are complaining because they cannot get enough workers who they can depend on to show up for work as scheduled, or can pass the drug tests.
OP
OP
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. Wes, Mr. S. I'm talking more along the lines of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice
rather than "traditional" justice which appears to contribute to the "career" aspect of criminality and supports the idea that prisons are simple schools for criminals. Jails are not tough enough in the wrong areas.
Mr. Wes, Mr. S. I'm talking more along the lines of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice
rather than "traditional" justice which appears to contribute to the "career" aspect of criminality and supports the idea that prisons are simple schools for criminals. Jails are not tough enough in the wrong areas.
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Xsbank
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Most of these guys get out eventually and if they have been taught nothing nor rehabilitated they will be worse. Yes, they are off the streets for a few years, but what happens when they get out?
The US jails a huge percentage of its citizens and disproportionate numbers of blacks and disadvantaged minorities. Jail doesn't fix anything, it just warehouses people. Then they get out.
The US jails a huge percentage of its citizens and disproportionate numbers of blacks and disadvantaged minorities. Jail doesn't fix anything, it just warehouses people. Then they get out.
windmist
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Now you've opened a can of worms. The reason a disproportionate number of blacks are in prison is that they commit a disproportionate amount of crime.
A simple search "black crime statistics" brought up this:
A 2012 study by the Department of Justice’s Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention revealed that in 2010 black youths committed six times more murders, three times more rapes, 10 times more robberies and three times more assaults than did their white counterparts.
Similar statistics were released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in the “Uniform Crime Reports.” They determined, “In the year 2008, black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58% for homicide and 67% for robbery.” By contrast, the only categories where white youths surpassed blacks were in liquor law violations and driving under the influence.
Crime Stats Alarm Black Leaders | American Free Press
If you really want the facts, do the search and you will find a wealth of information on this problem. This of course begs the question of WHY?
My take is racial discourse is big business in the US. We have people like Jesse Jackson and Al Shrapton and the NAACP who foster racial hated whenever given the chance. Instead of encouraging the disadvantage youth to change their behavior, these people and organizations encourage racism as the cause for their status in life.
You hit the nail right on the head!!
Bill Cosby did some real interesting and insightful dialogue on this exact subject some time back, and has been very outspoken regarding the family unit and it's effect on young blacks. There have been other true "black leaders" (this of course naturally excludes the idiot hate mongers such as Sharpton and Jackson), such as Dr. (M.D.) Ben Carson and General Colin Powell, who have offered positive commentary on the subject.
Change is going to have to happen from the inside out.
Now, back to the jail population...I firmly believe that there are a few people that should remain in jail for most of their natural lives. These are the true hardcore types who cannot be rehabilitated.
For many of the others, white collar types, hackers, small time dopers, etc., there are better ways to have them pay their "debt" to society, without being such a draw on the taxpayer.
If they are a professional, use their skills to benefit society. Have them teach, help people better plan finances, offer medical assistance to the homeless and "underfunded." Another thing is simply decriminalize some of the crap that we still have cluttering up our statute books! Do away with the tax code as it stands, and make it understandable by the layman with an IQ above "duh!"
Hell, we used to (and still on occasion) spend copious amounts of taxpayer funds chasing whores from one county to another
I could go on, but what's the use?
OP
OP
RT Firefly
Enigma
Mr. Xs, I have a solution to this problem and you can be a big help in getting it started. It's called "Adopt a Lifer". Here's how it works.
Once you have applied to the program your application WILL be approved. Upon approval you will be assigned a violent career criminal and you and your wife will become his adoptive parent(s). Your CC (Career Criminal) may have a history of violent crimes including murder, felony assault, rape with violence, burglary and other serious felonies. But rest assured, all CC's who apply to this program must sign a pledge that they will not do that any more.
A black Suburban with several heavily armed guards will deliver your CC to your residence. He will be in handcuffs and leg irons but these will be removed when he is introduced to you and your family. At this time you will be paid the sum of $4,550 for taking on this small responsibility. You also will be provided a resume of your CC that will include reports of his childhood, his own family, his school history (this is often the shortest part of the report) and his criminal history (this is often the longest part of the report).
He's then your family's to take care of, to love and cherish, to feed and clothe and to provide a safe, loving environment for. You will be paid a small monthly stipend (tax free, I might add) that you can use for additional clothing items, personal toiletries, etc.
Your CC will be expected to report every two months to his PO (Parole Officer) and since he won't have a driver's license we expect you to facilitate these meetings. You will be paid mileage at the rate of $.415/mile for transporting him to these meetings.
Please feel free to make your very own CC welcome to your home and your community. He expects to get to know your family intimately and will likely become involved in your children's school activities.
Sleep well, Sir, and thank you for participating in this Adopt A Lifer program.
Jail does fix something. It protects the rest of us from these criminals for a few years.
If you believe people shouldn't be punished for their crimes, where is their incentive not to commit crimes?
As for a disproportionate percentage of minorities in prisons, you do the crime (and get caught), you do the time. It doesn't matter what color your skin is or where your ancestors came from.
The cost of keeping these people in prison? It's less than the cost to society of the crimes they would be committing if they were freely roaming the streets.
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Xsbank
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I'm not defending the creeps and jerks out there, I'm just saying that if the US has such a huge number of people in jail, this can't be good, there certainly isn't any decrease in the quantity of folks you guys are throwing in jail, so the process doesn't work.
To me, that's obvious.
What you really want is no crime, ergo bingo no jails. How are you going about getting to that result?
The part that I'm pissed about is it is obvious to the world that you have a huge social problem that causes so many of your citizens to end up in jail. Those people would be far better for the country if they were contributing, not being parasites. My government, however, thinks your solution is enviable and is trying to emulate your solution, which is stupid, short-sighted, has no redeeming social value and is very expensive.
To me, that's obvious.
What you really want is no crime, ergo bingo no jails. How are you going about getting to that result?
The part that I'm pissed about is it is obvious to the world that you have a huge social problem that causes so many of your citizens to end up in jail. Those people would be far better for the country if they were contributing, not being parasites. My government, however, thinks your solution is enviable and is trying to emulate your solution, which is stupid, short-sighted, has no redeeming social value and is very expensive.
Steve
Guru
Here is quote from the Winnipeg Sun
"Despite that, there’s been very little public attention paid to the skyrocketing increase in the number of black Canadians sent to federal prisons.
In 2000-01, there were 766 black inmates in federal prisons. That number jumped to 1,294 by 2010-11, according to Sapers’ 2011-12 annual report.
That’s a 69% increase over 10 years.
Black people make up about 2.5% of Canada’s population. Yet they now represent just over 9% of the federal inmate population, the report says. The majority of black inmates are incarcerated in Ontario — 60% — followed by Quebec at 18%."
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Xsbank
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I said my government is following the footsteps of the US, so your point is?
"(August 2012) Since 2002, the United States has had the highest incarceration rate in the world. Although prison populations are increasing in some parts of the world, the natural rate of incarceration for countries comparable to the United States tends to stay around 100 prisoners per 100,000 population. The U.S. rate is 500 prisoners per 100,000 residents, or about 1.6 million prisoners in 2010, according to the latest available data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).1
Men make up 90 percent of the prison and local jail population, and they have an imprisonment rate 14 times higher than the rate for women.2 And these men are overwhelmingly young: Incarceration rates are highest for those in their 20s and early 30s. Prisoners also tend to be less educated: The average state prisoner has a 10th grade education, and about 70 percent have not completed high school.3 Incarceration rates are significantly higher for blacks and Latinos than for whites. In 2010, black men were incarcerated at a rate of 3,074 per 100,000 residents; Latinos were incarcerated at 1,258 per 100,000, and white men were incarcerated at 459 per 100,000.4 Since 2007, however, the incarceration rate in the United States has tapered slightly and the 2010 prison population saw a decline—of 0.3 percent—for the first time since 1972, according to the BJS."
"(August 2012) Since 2002, the United States has had the highest incarceration rate in the world. Although prison populations are increasing in some parts of the world, the natural rate of incarceration for countries comparable to the United States tends to stay around 100 prisoners per 100,000 population. The U.S. rate is 500 prisoners per 100,000 residents, or about 1.6 million prisoners in 2010, according to the latest available data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).1
Men make up 90 percent of the prison and local jail population, and they have an imprisonment rate 14 times higher than the rate for women.2 And these men are overwhelmingly young: Incarceration rates are highest for those in their 20s and early 30s. Prisoners also tend to be less educated: The average state prisoner has a 10th grade education, and about 70 percent have not completed high school.3 Incarceration rates are significantly higher for blacks and Latinos than for whites. In 2010, black men were incarcerated at a rate of 3,074 per 100,000 residents; Latinos were incarcerated at 1,258 per 100,000, and white men were incarcerated at 459 per 100,000.4 Since 2007, however, the incarceration rate in the United States has tapered slightly and the 2010 prison population saw a decline—of 0.3 percent—for the first time since 1972, according to the BJS."
FF
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What you really want is no crime, ergo bingo no jails. How are you going about getting to that result?
Easy ,,,end prohibition. Legalize drugs . Merc & Lilly et all will assure purity.
Many of the folks in jail are there for drug offenses.
Drugs were legal till the early 1900s and not a source of crime.
Easy ,,,end prohibition. Legalize drugs . Merc & Lilly et all will assure purity.
Many of the folks in jail are there for drug offenses.
Drugs were legal till the early 1900s and not a source of crime.
The reason there is a higher percentage of black and latino males in prison is that a higher percentage of black and latino males commit crimes (and get caught).
The answer isn't to eliminate the laws that are being broken, the answer is to find a way to convince these people to obey the laws. These people fall behind in school, drop out of school, join gangs and their future is pretty much crime, jail, crime, jail, etc.
If they decide to be career criminals, the only way to protect society from them is to lock them up.
The answer isn't to eliminate the laws that are being broken, the answer is to find a way to convince these people to obey the laws. These people fall behind in school, drop out of school, join gangs and their future is pretty much crime, jail, crime, jail, etc.
If they decide to be career criminals, the only way to protect society from them is to lock them up.
IMO a large part of our crime problem stems from the fact that we have created an entitlement society. There is a large segment of our population that "wants it" and they don't want to work for it, and they want it now.
Take a look at what happened in New Orleans after that hurricane ripped through there a few years ago....rioting, plundering, murders, stores being stripped of merchandise....much of the population of New Orleans was out of control.
Compare that to the central US states that have been devastated by tornadoes. You didn't see the people acting like savages. No rioting, murders, rapes, etc. People got their butts out on the street and started cleaning up their own mess and helping neighbors to clean up their messes.
This entitlement society has been given so much free sh!t in the form of welfare, food stamps, free medical, free this, free that, that they no longer feel they should have to work for "it". "It" could be a new big screen TV, drugs, food, clothing, etc. "It" can be anything they don't have that they want.
And they still want "it". Doesn't matter if "it" costs money they don't have, they'll steal the money to get "it". If you have "it" they'll take it from you because they deserve to have it. The world's not fair, they've been mistreated and unfairly denied, but they still want "it". If they have to murder, rob, burglarize your home or whatever, they'll do whatever it takes to get "it".
So, IMO, until we can reduce or eliminate that entitlement thinking in this country we're never going to get close to the concept of reducing our crime problem.
Moonstruck
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A few years back, I got a limited window into our criminal justice system. When I was a volunteer teacher of adult literacy courses, I was asked to do some tutoring at halfway houses and with some troubled teenage drop outs. There was some success, in fact one of my students went on to get a degree from Georgia State University. However, there were many failures. I learned a lot. It was amazing how glib they could be. They would tell you anything. There whole purpose was to convince the parole board to let them back on the streets. After that it was over. Most went back to their old ways. The heart breaking part was mothers with children to raise. Even most teens only stayed long enough to convince a judge to let them have their drivers license back.
Talk about banging your head against the wall!
Talk about banging your head against the wall!
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Moonstruck
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Too late to edit, so here is another maybe success story from my tutoring. The local Navy recuiters sent me a student that had passed all but the reneral knowledge test to get into SEALS training. I tutored and mentored him along. He passed the test, and shipped out. I don't know what happened to him. He like most of the rest would say they would let me hear from them in the future, but few did.
Regardless, be content in knowing that you had a hand in forging his future for the better. Bravo-Zulu...Job Well Done!
FF
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The answer isn't to eliminate the laws that are being broken,
The drug laws were created to be able to arrest Chinese , and deport them after the RR was built.
The only folks served by drug laws are the many cartels , US customs , local police and the screws union at the local jail.
WE waste billions on catching folks , and more sticking them behind bars.
As always the question is Who Profits , Follow the Money.
The drug laws were created to be able to arrest Chinese , and deport them after the RR was built.
The only folks served by drug laws are the many cartels , US customs , local police and the screws union at the local jail.
WE waste billions on catching folks , and more sticking them behind bars.
As always the question is Who Profits , Follow the Money.
RickB
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Considering that a million people evacuated N.O. and the scale of the disaster is nearly beyond belief, the fact that a microscopic portion of those effected turned to looting should not come as a surprise or be used to condemn and entire portion of society.
File:Katrina FEMA declarations narrow.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Midwest tornado tornadoes are nothing compared to Katrina. The number of people impacted and the scope of damage is so much smaller that unless you were a victim, it amounts to nothing more than a few heavy news days and a windfall for the Weather Channel.
Considering that your house may have been destroyed in a tornado while your neighbor's is untouched might effect how willing you will be to go out and loot vs an entire region that is abandoned, without law enforcement and quite literally destroyed in an apocalypse.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Joplin-tornado-map.jpg
Compare the area and number of people ... and look up looting after the Joplin tornado which is considered the worst tornado to hit the Midwest in a very long time.
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Sorry Rick, but I ain't buying your line of crap that the rioting, looting, murders, etc., were due to the numbers of people involved in that disaster. It also wasn't a microscopic portion of the people who were looting unless you use the total numbers of people affected by the hurricanes to put a slant on your "microscopic" number.
Yes, a million people were evacuated from NO before the hurricane hit and many more afterwards. But it seemed to be those who were too lazy to leave that were left behind. Many of those were in the entitlement society and they stayed to reap their own rewards following the cleanup.
About 3 years after that happened I spent a couple of hours talking with a N.O. cop who had been there when the hurricane went through. The scenario he described to me indicated that it was not a small number of people involved in the criminal activity, but rather huge numbers. Entire neighborhoods were involved and the cops were so vastly outnumbered there was no way they could have stopped it.
Now compare that to my own experience having gone through hurricane Camille, a Cat 5 hurricane, in 1969. I was in the USAF and stationed in Biloxi, MS, which took a direct hit from Camille. Keep in mind this was before our entitlement society was created.
There was no rioting, very little looting, no murders, no rapes. What there was were neighborhoods of people out cleaning up, dragging debris to the street so it could be hauled away. I spent a week after the hurricane helping with the cleanup, much of that time in the neighborhoods near the city center in Biloxi.
People were helping strangers with cleanup. People were friendly, albeit a bit shell shocked by the damage.
So Rick, I ain't buying that line of BS you've provided those elegant charts and graphs to support.
Yes, a million people were evacuated from NO before the hurricane hit and many more afterwards. But it seemed to be those who were too lazy to leave that were left behind. Many of those were in the entitlement society and they stayed to reap their own rewards following the cleanup.
About 3 years after that happened I spent a couple of hours talking with a N.O. cop who had been there when the hurricane went through. The scenario he described to me indicated that it was not a small number of people involved in the criminal activity, but rather huge numbers. Entire neighborhoods were involved and the cops were so vastly outnumbered there was no way they could have stopped it.
Now compare that to my own experience having gone through hurricane Camille, a Cat 5 hurricane, in 1969. I was in the USAF and stationed in Biloxi, MS, which took a direct hit from Camille. Keep in mind this was before our entitlement society was created.
There was no rioting, very little looting, no murders, no rapes. What there was were neighborhoods of people out cleaning up, dragging debris to the street so it could be hauled away. I spent a week after the hurricane helping with the cleanup, much of that time in the neighborhoods near the city center in Biloxi.
People were helping strangers with cleanup. People were friendly, albeit a bit shell shocked by the damage.
So Rick, I ain't buying that line of BS you've provided those elegant charts and graphs to support.
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RickB
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No point in letting the truth spoil a good preconception.
Debunking the Myths of Hurricane Katrina: Special Report - Popular Mechanics
MYTH: "They have people ... been in that frickin' Superdome for five days watching dead bodies, watching hooligans killing people, raping people."--New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin, The Oprah Winfrey Show, Sept. 6, 2005
REALITY: Both public officials and the press passed along lurid tales of post-Katrina mayhem: shootouts in the Superdome, bodies stacked in a convention center freezer, snipers firing on rescue helicopters. And those accounts appear to have affected rescue efforts as first responders shifted resources from saving lives to protecting rescuers. In reality, although looting and other property crimes were widespread after the flooding on Monday, Aug. 29, almost none of the stories about violent crime turned out to be true. Col. Thomas Beron, the National Guard commander of Task Force Orleans, arrived at the Superdome on Aug. 29 and took command of 400 soldiers. He told PM that when the Dome's main power failed around 5 am, "it became a hot, humid, miserable place. There was some pushing, people were irritable. There was one attempted rape that the New Orleans police stopped."
The only confirmed account of a weapon discharge occurred when Louisiana Guardsman Chris Watt was jumped by an assailant and, during the chaotic arrest, accidently shot himself in the leg with his own M-16. When the Superdome was finally cleared, six bodies were found--not the 200 speculated. Four people had died of natural causes; one was ruled a suicide, and another a drug overdose. Of the four bodies recovered at the convention center, three had died of natural causes; the fourth had sustained stab wounds.
Anarchy in the streets? "The vast majority of people [looting] were taking food and water to live," says Capt. Marlon Defillo, the New Orleans Police Department's commander of public affairs. "There were no killings, not one murder." As for sniper fire: No bullet holes were found in the fuselage of any rescue helicopter.
NEXT TIME: "Rumors are fueled by a shortage of truth," says Ted Steinberg, author of Acts of God: The Unnatural History of Natural Disasters in America. And truth was the first casualty of the information breakdown that followed the storm. Hardening communications lines (see page 3) will benefit not just first responders, but also the media. Government officials have a vital role in informing the public. Ensuring the flow of accurate information should be part of disaster planning at local, state and federal levels.
Read more: Debunking the Myths of Hurricane Katrina: Special Report - Popular Mechanics
https://tinyurl.com/n3uynm6
"Moving across the timbered inlands of Mississippi, Camille is downgraded to a tropical storm with maximum wind speeds of less than 74 MPH (118 km/h) by midafternoon of August 18. Amid growing reports of looting, Mississippi's governor declares martial law."
Debunking the Myths of Hurricane Katrina: Special Report - Popular Mechanics
MYTH: "They have people ... been in that frickin' Superdome for five days watching dead bodies, watching hooligans killing people, raping people."--New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin, The Oprah Winfrey Show, Sept. 6, 2005
REALITY: Both public officials and the press passed along lurid tales of post-Katrina mayhem: shootouts in the Superdome, bodies stacked in a convention center freezer, snipers firing on rescue helicopters. And those accounts appear to have affected rescue efforts as first responders shifted resources from saving lives to protecting rescuers. In reality, although looting and other property crimes were widespread after the flooding on Monday, Aug. 29, almost none of the stories about violent crime turned out to be true. Col. Thomas Beron, the National Guard commander of Task Force Orleans, arrived at the Superdome on Aug. 29 and took command of 400 soldiers. He told PM that when the Dome's main power failed around 5 am, "it became a hot, humid, miserable place. There was some pushing, people were irritable. There was one attempted rape that the New Orleans police stopped."
The only confirmed account of a weapon discharge occurred when Louisiana Guardsman Chris Watt was jumped by an assailant and, during the chaotic arrest, accidently shot himself in the leg with his own M-16. When the Superdome was finally cleared, six bodies were found--not the 200 speculated. Four people had died of natural causes; one was ruled a suicide, and another a drug overdose. Of the four bodies recovered at the convention center, three had died of natural causes; the fourth had sustained stab wounds.
Anarchy in the streets? "The vast majority of people [looting] were taking food and water to live," says Capt. Marlon Defillo, the New Orleans Police Department's commander of public affairs. "There were no killings, not one murder." As for sniper fire: No bullet holes were found in the fuselage of any rescue helicopter.
NEXT TIME: "Rumors are fueled by a shortage of truth," says Ted Steinberg, author of Acts of God: The Unnatural History of Natural Disasters in America. And truth was the first casualty of the information breakdown that followed the storm. Hardening communications lines (see page 3) will benefit not just first responders, but also the media. Government officials have a vital role in informing the public. Ensuring the flow of accurate information should be part of disaster planning at local, state and federal levels.
Read more: Debunking the Myths of Hurricane Katrina: Special Report - Popular Mechanics
https://tinyurl.com/n3uynm6
"Moving across the timbered inlands of Mississippi, Camille is downgraded to a tropical storm with maximum wind speeds of less than 74 MPH (118 km/h) by midafternoon of August 18. Amid growing reports of looting, Mississippi's governor declares martial law."
