Melt Down Anybody??

rochepoint said:

Yes they do.......SmartPlug Systems 50 Amp Products

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Don't see a cord? I meant a cord with there outlet molded on it like there're 30 Amp cord.

Delfin said:

appropriate standard as Mr Smith seems to suggest. For example, here is a locking plug system that is UL approved that isn't a twist lock: Spec Sheets

Why would UL approve this, and not the SmartPlug unless the SmartPlug fails to meet some UL standard?

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That may be Mr. Smith's problem, his smartplug is like the example you show a 15 amp plug and not marine rated for 30 amp service.

I suspect the issue is UL wants to see a NEMA L5 - 30 or NEMA L5 -50 compliant connector to approve it for marine use. That would be a good question to ask Mr. Smith?

I would surmise that the issue is that a SmartPlug doesn't conform to either UL pin standards, NEMA wiring devices standards or some other aspect that speaks to polarization of the plug pins.

Edit: New info

According to Smart Plug VP Mike Miller, NFPA has told the company they want to see the already accepted NEMA plug configuration design employed. NEMA has told Smart Plug they would consider accepting the new design if the company would be willing to give up its patent rights for the design.

Sounds like they need a friend on the NEC Code Writing Committee. NEMA won't budge for a little guy like this.

Edelweiss, Northern Spy, that makes perfect sense. The standard they chose not to meet is the pin configuration. My concern remains the fact that they advertise a thermal cutoff capability which clearly does not work, and I wonder whether it isn't the cause of the problem in the first place.

I'm intrigued about the thermal protection as well as I can't find any information on it, but not sure if it is a weak link. If there were resistance that created heat (over time) then it would probably work fine. This may have been an arc or a quick amp draw.

Northern Spy said:

I'm intrigued about the thermal protection as well as I can't find any information on it, but not sure if it is a weak link. If there were resistance that created heat (over time) then it would probably work fine. This may have been an arc or a quick amp draw.

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I can only go on their what they say on their website, which is that at the first sign of heating, the current is interrupted. I suppose the only way they could do that would be to cause the CB to trip. I have no idea how that would work, but it seems kind of sketchy to me, never mind apparently not working.

I just read their website and although they allude to heat protection, they merely say the plug has better connectors and weather protection. Nowhere does it say the plug will interrupt power if it heats up. A change, perhaps? Maybe a new site?

It's in the inlet, not the plug.

Overheat Protection. The 30 Amp Inlet contains a trip thermostat which cuts power in the unlikely event of overheating. It’s set to trip at 200ºF (93ºC) - just before
wire insulation begins to soften - and restore the power once it has
cooled back down to a safe temperature of around 120ºF (49ºC).

here

Ok, thanks for showing that - the one part of the site I missed. Maybe it's past my bedtime...

Edelweiss said:

The Insurance Company is concerned that the SmartPlug product is targeted at DIY sales, yet it has an inherent DIY flaw. When installed on an old cord by a boat owner, failure to follow the exact instructions will cause catastrophic failure and exposes the insurance Co. to greater risk. That said, one of these plugs was purportedly installed by an electrician??

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The fact that they are an electrician makes them an expert in electrical principles, not following manufacturers instructions. In my experience it seems to make them less likely to since they "already know how".

Northern Spy said:

It's in the inlet, not the plug.

Overheat Protection. The 30 Amp Inlet contains a trip thermostat which cuts power in the unlikely event of overheating. It’s set to trip at 200ºF (93ºC) - just before
wire insulation begins to soften - and restore the power once it has
cooled back down to a safe temperature of around 120ºF (49ºC).

here

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So, after all this discussion it comes down to a simple high resistance connection, coupled with a high current draw.

Thats the exact same problem the standard NEMA connectors have.

Thats the same risk that ANY connector has.

I'm going to repeat myself here, but alas nobody is going to listen.

If you want to reduce the risk of a fire...

LIMIT YOUR LOADS. Just because its a 30 amp shore power setup does not mean that you can draw power up to where the breaker on the shore power pedestal trips.

You know what I did at my harbor?

I paid, out of my own pocket to have the harbor's electrical contractor install a 50 amp outlet at my slip last fall. Over $1300 I paid.

How did I get them to do it???

I wrote a e-mail to the harbormaster indicating that I was afraid of fire and wanted to take any steps I could to mitigate that risk. With an e-mail like that in hand, the harbormaster had little choice but to allow the installation.

ksanders said:

If you want to reduce the risk of a fire...
LIMIT YOUR LOADS. Just because its a 30 amp shore power setup does not mean that you can draw power up to where the breaker on the shore power pedestal trips. .

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Great advice.

I read the Smart Plug website and testimonials for the first time. Interesting how they have used safety as a marketing tool, until their own house burned down anyway. I'm still puzzled as to the logic of a non sealed 6 finger owner jobbed after market connection that requires an E cord investment 3X the cost of a Marinco, or more. Plus requiring permission from the marina to redo their dock outlet on a one off basis.

Even a bigger hard sell than Rocna. Glad to see it brought Delfin back.

ksanders said:

So, after all this discussion it comes down to a simple high resistance connection, coupled with a high current draw.

Thats the exact same problem the standard NEMA connectors have.

Thats the same risk that ANY connector has.

I'm going to repeat myself here, but alas nobody is going to listen.

If you want to reduce the risk of a fire...

LIMIT YOUR LOADS. Just because its a 30 amp shore power setup does not mean that you can draw power up to where the breaker on the shore power pedestal trips.

You know what I did at my harbor?

I paid, out of my own pocket to have the harbor's electrical contractor install a 50 amp outlet at my slip last fall. Over $1300 I paid.

How did I get them to do it???

I wrote a e-mail to the harbormaster indicating that I was afraid of fire and wanted to take any steps I could to mitigate that risk. With an e-mail like that in hand, the harbormaster had little choice but to allow the installation.

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Absolutely...this summer I charred the prongs on my cords while running A/C ...they were cleaned and not full of salt....

And that's why I want to go to a 50 125/250 cord because I believe the whole setup connects more securely than 30A connectors...I rather underutilize a 50A (really 100A) service than overtask 30's.

And yes I could auto or manually load shed...but like I used to say to mommy "I don't wanna!!!"

The advice in the last few post are the best. I'm moving to a new dock this year and I will wire it for 50 amp service with 30 amp breakers. I have burned a few 30 amp cords in the past by drawing to much to long.

One thing missing in this conversation is the condition of the dockside receptacle. All it takes is one instance of a poorly fitting male blade or pin to burn or pit the female contact and even a new plug may be the victim of a high resistance contact until that receptacle is replaced or repaired.

Make a habit of feeling the shore connection whenever you walk past it. If the plug is hot or unusually warm, find out why. If the internal wiring connections in your plug are tight, the wire is not hot but a prong is hot or the socket is warm tell the marina.

RickB said:

One thing missing in this conversation is the condition of the dockside receptacle. All it takes is one instance of a poorly fitting male blade or pin to burn or pit the female contact and even a new plug may be the victim of a high resistance contact until that receptacle is replaced or repaired.

Make a habit of feeling the shore connection whenever you walk past it. If the plug is hot or unusually warm, find out why. If the internal wiring connections in your plug are tight, the wire is not hot but a prong is hot or the socket is warm tell the marina.

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You mean that the sockets mounted in the cheap plastic that's broken and dangling might be a cause of concern? NO WAY....even funnier is try and get it fixed before I have to leave for the North again let alone before I leave the next day...

So far on my trip it seems like the 50A services in general are in better condition and there's a much more positive lock and connection than many 30's...that's a big part of me just throwing in the towel and paying the difference too...they just feel like less of a hazard (the ones that aren't dangling) even if I'm only dreaming...

ksanders said:

So, after all this discussion it comes down to a simple high resistance connection, coupled with a high current draw.

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Or, a high resistance connection, coupled with a low current draw through the circuitry of whatever device is supposed to sense heat and disconnect current in the SmartPlug. 1 amp will do it if the printed circuit is small enough.

sunchaser said:

Great advice.

I read the Smart Plug website and testimonials for the first time. Interesting how they have used safety as a marketing tool, until their own house burned down anyway. I'm still puzzled as to the logic of a non sealed 6 finger owner jobbed after market connection that requires an E cord investment 3X the cost of a Marinco, or more. Plus requiring permission from the marina to redo their dock outlet on a one off basis.

Even a bigger hard sell than Rocna. Glad to see it brought Delfin back.

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It just seems like the SmartPlug is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I suppose shoving a plug into a socket would save me at least 5 seconds compared to screwing the watertight lock collar down on my Marinco and that could add up to a couple of minutes over the course of a year, but that just doesn't jump out in my mind as a compelling advantage. Add to that what I think is a silly use of electronics, i.e. using delicate and apparently unfused circuitry to indirectly interrupt 50 amps of current and you end up with, well, melt-downs. Especially questionable design when the circuitry doesn't frigging work, at least twice. In one marina area.

For years I have used CorrosionX on electrical connections of all types. I apply to my AC power plugs and sockets a couple of times a year and they always seem to be clean and serviceable. I also use it on DC battery terminals and power distribution connections and again, they remain clean and corrosion free. Obviously, it has many other uses around a boat. You might want to give it a try.

Larry

Larry,

I'm with you on corrosion control. I am going to have my first permanent slip this year and will put corrosion control on electrical connections on the maintenance list. Dielectric compounds are pretty inexpensive protection. We use compounds like Corrosion X in underground cable TV vaults in Hawaii. There they water the grass with brackish water and the aluminum cases on the components corrode away in a couple of years without it. There's not much difference between those vaults and a dock.

Tom

Using a 50 amp service for a 30 amp boat and power cord won't solve anything, in fact it can create a problem that wasn't there before, namely a 30 amp shorepower cord protected only by a 50 amp circuit breaker.

I suggested earlier using an infared thermometer to check the connections for excessive heat. I should have clarified that it should be done both at the boat end and at the dock end.

Gentlemen, are you suggesting the cord and plugs should be cold? How warm is "warm?"

Xsbank said:

Gentlemen, are you suggesting the cord and plugs should be cold? How warm is "warm?"

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Warm is warmer than they are when current isn't flowing through them. More specifically warmer than ambient temperature or adjacent surfaces. I'll make an off the wall guess of twenty degrees warmer indicates a problem that should at least be investigated.

Since the same current is flowing through both ends of the cable, the temperature would be expected to be about the same at both ends. If one is hotter than the other, again, find out why.

Mine is warm to the touch, enough to know its working, and it's the same at both ends. I will investigate anyway.

I'm not sure warm all along the cord if it's at max rating is an issue...I'd be much more worried about hot spots or if an area is warm with just minimal current passing...

psneeld said:

I'm not sure warm all along the cord if it's at max rating is an issue...I'd be much more worried about hot spots or if an area is warm with just minimal current passing...

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It's ok for it to be mildly warm at full load over hours of steady use. If it gets much hotter than bathwater, about 55 C or 130F, I would be concerned and look into a heavier gauge cord. I wouldn't trust a hot power cord, especially on these wonderful boats.

As a follow up. . . . A representative of SmartPlug has examined the damaged plug and cord installed by the electrician and determined that it was installed properly. He acknowledged it appeared there was a failure in the binding mechanism of the plug. The company offered to replace the damaged plug with a complete 50' cord with molded plug, so long as he surrendered the damage plug. (I don't know if he accepted the offer. HA!) The rep also mentioned that they were looking at an upgrade to resolve the problem.

Mr. Smith CEO SmartPlug will be attending the boaters seminar, May 12th in Anacortes, Wa. (at the Port of Anacortes, Cap Santa Marina office building)

sunchaser said:

Is that kind of setup ABYC compliant?

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Yes, it is ABYC compliant

Hmmmm, seems to be some more posts suddenly vanished. Where is the one suggesting hardwiring? That is a very common and useful method where it is physically possible as it eliminates virtually all concerns caused by plug and socket problems.

But, like the man said jokingly (that post - and its wink - is now gone for some reason) hard wiring does reduce cruising range.

(There used to be a quote here but it vanished with the post it came from.)


I guess you have longer shorepower cords than most ... about 4000 miles longer I'd say.

Notice the wink? In mystery stories and internet postings a wink is sometimes called a "clue."

Do I have this correct - for 3X or so the cost of a 30 amp 110V Marinco I can buy a Smart plug with cord setup that requires the same care and attention?

Further, mine like most marinas will not allow me to mess around with the dock end as only BC Hydro can do that.