Rescue bill for "rescue"

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Having watched two excellent, but heavy movies the last few days, “Lone Survivor” yesterday and “Blackfish” Friday, and just finishing the book, “When Thunder Rolled” by Ed Rasimus (probably one of the best non-fiction narrative of a pilot I have ever read [right after the Robin Olds book]), I am again reminded of the stupidity of the bureaucracy in the U.S. military and the greediness of American corporations (SeaWorld). What is also unsaid in “Lone Survivor” (the book is far superior and a must read, if you really care), is that the powers to be, both political and military, ignored special operations as much as they could until 9-11. It was a career ender for any officer and never given the resources they really needed. And when they were really needed (Iran Rescue Attempt) the idiots in the White House, let the bureaucrats in the military divide the operation like it was a birthday cake, so no one’s feelings were hurt (Navy) and we ended up with mine sweeping pilots and helicopters flying over the dessert.
Enough said, thank you for indulging me.

Richard, ready to get back to Dauntless and out of the cold
 
RickB said:
.. let the CG do what they do really well - rescue people in distress. ...
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Ready to help when you're in distress:

img_207446_0_c71d0e3b66323614f88cd9f421794938.jpg


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N4712 said:
Can I get one for personal pleasure? :D Just yank those Hondas off, and throw some verados on. ;)
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Sure man, and all you'll need a quick $180k (MOL) to do it:thumb:
USCG Defender Class... | BoatTEST.com
And, if you'll make it 2 I'll buy the trailers:D

USCG: About Us - Aircraft & Cutters
Length: 25ft
Engines: 2X225 HP Four-stroke Gas Honda engines
Max Speed: 45+ knot
Cruising range of 50NM at 35 knots
Minimum crew of 2
Max seas of 6 ft
Survivable in up to 10 ft seas


I found this part to be a bit on the humorous side:

The Standard SAFE Boats Collar system has been proven, says the builder, to stop small arms fire from penetrating the side plate of the hull. With the addition of ballistic material either behind the collar or laminated in the collar, it can stop up to 7.62 mm.
 

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Enlisting is way cheaper (for the short run):D
 
psneeld said:
Oh you mean the Steamship Inspection Service...or was it the Lighthouse Service...I forget which one of those came right after the Revenue Cutter Service...
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Who really cares? I don't know who or why the first original purpose or name of the CG came into the discussion. My point before it was deflected is that it is time to disarm the CG, remove its LE role along with its regulatory duties and let it be a SAR service ... that is the single thing it does exceedingly well that no one else can or wants to do.

That "pantywaist" saw the light and could have saved the taxpayer billions in stupid boat designs that don't work. We have enough military and cops to assign one to every citizen and at the rate we are going, probably will.
 
RickB said:
Who really cares? I don't know who or why the first original purpose or name of the CG came into the discussion.
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Uh, it was the point of the OP thread I think?

My point before it was deflected is that it is time to disarm the CG, remove its LE role along with its regulatory duties and let it be a SAR service ... that is the single thing it does exceedingly well that no one else can or wants to do.
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:rofl::rofl: So noted...

That "pantywaist" saw the light and could have saved the taxpayer billions in stupid boat designs that don't work...
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I will give you the one point RickB, that being the "stupid boat designs."
We saw the fiasco with the Island Class Cutters, and I'm sure there's been others. That's what happens when bean counters (no offense to CPA's, you are my best friends, especially as we draw closer to April 15th:eek:) get involved in vessel design!

And no, what that "pantywaist" saw a way to reduce the Coast Guards budget to a level where it would likely have become ineffective altogether. :( I'm sure that's not what he was thinking. Then again, I'm not real sure WTF he was thinking???:whistling:

As psneeld stated, the Coast Guard is funded as a fully operational organization prepared to fulfill all of their stated duties. Start taking out pieces of the pie, and after while, there will be no pie left. Then you can start paying BIG bucks for the "real military" as I think you said, to step in and try to figure out how to do what the USCG does everyday. ;) And once they get it figured out, then we can "simply" change the Constitution to allow them to do it:D. That out to place us one step closer to a National Police Force...how's that work for ya?

As for the "real military", you might want to review your combat history, as it pertains to the USCG. I'll know it, so rather than burden everyone with chest thumping, I'll leave it to you to do your own research.

We have enough military and cops to assign one to every citizen and at the rate we are going, probably will
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:banghead:I think I see the issues.....

Have a good evening Rick:thumb:
 
Off Duty said:
Uh, it was the point of the OP thread I think?
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Uh, no. As the OP my point and suggestion was that there should be a mechanism by which the taxpayer can recover the costs of a "rescue" in certain situations. The situation described in the OP is one such.


...what that "pantywaist" saw a way to reduce the Coast Guards budget to a level where it would likely have become ineffective altogether.
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No great loss. The near coastal SAR mission can be handled by a lifesaving service like that of the UK. The distant water portion could be managed by voluntary transfer of skilled CG personnel to "seed" military aviation units. It would give the zoomies some needed training while performing a more useful task.

As for the "real military", you might want to review your combat history, as it pertains to the USCG.
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The actions of a handful of Coasties during WW2 does not obligate the nation todishonor a single part of its history or the actions of its former members, it just stops the pointless waste of our treasury. Our history is filled with deactivated agencies and military units that outlived their purpose.


I think I see the issues.....
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I think you may have missed the point by a wide margin.

Full List of Armed Federal Agencies | The Truth About Guns

Federal law enforcement in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I could go on nearly forever listing the water cops, duck cops, cat cops, county cops, city cops, library cops, airport cops, port cops, bank cops, park cops, parking lot cops, grocery store cops, private cops ... the list won't stop growing until the each of us is assigned an armed handler.

I understand that as an ex cop of some sort, you are sensitive to anyone critical of any police organization so let's just stick to the point that taxpayer money is wasted providing free transportation to nautical fools by an agency that has more on its plate than it can handle or, in my opinion, should even be assigned.
 
RickB said:
The actions of a handful of Coasties during WW2...
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LOL- Ok, you can have it your way:thumb:
U.S. Coast Guard World War II Combat Victories

Ok, upon review I guess you're right. Their role was pretty insignificant I guess...
Douglas Albert Munro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Douglas Munro[edit]

In the Second Battle of the Matanikau, part of the Guadalcanal Campaign, Munro was in charge of a detachment of ten boats which landed U.S. Marines at the scene. After successfully taking them ashore, he returned his boats to their previously assigned position and almost immediately learned that conditions ashore were different than had been anticipated and that it was necessary to evacuate the Marines immediately. Munro volunteered for the job and brought the boats to shore under heavy enemy fire, then proceeded to evacuate the men on the beach. When most of them were in the boats, complications arose in evacuating the last men, whom Munro realized would be in the greatest danger. He accordingly placed himself and his boats such that they would serve as cover for the last men to leave. Among the Marines evacuated that day was LTC Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC.[2] It was thus that Munro was fatally wounded—protecting the men after he had evacuated them. He remained conscious sufficiently long only to say four words: "Did they get off ?".[1]
Munro is buried at Laurel Hill Memorial Park in Cle Elum, Washington
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Douglas Albert Munro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Navy destroyer escort, USS Douglas A. Munro (DE-422), was named in his honor in 1944. The cutter USCGC Munro (WHEC-724) was commissioned in 1971, and is still on active service.
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Of course theres:

Vietnam?
THE COAST GUARD IN VIETNAM

Desert Shield/Storm, OEF, Afghanistan, et al...
History of the United States Coast Guard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On 24 April 2004, Petty Officer 3rd Class Nathan B. Bruckenthal, 24, from the USS Firebolt (PC-10), became the first Coast Guardsman to die in combat since the Vietnam War. He was killed in a suicide boat attack on a Basra oil terminal off the coast of Iraq. With his death, all branches of the U.S. Armed Forces had seen at least one death in that war. At the height of the conflict, the Coast Guard deployed over 1,200 men and women,including about 500 reservists, 11 ships(two large cutters, a buoy tender, eight patrol boats) 4 port-security units, a law enforcement detachments and support staff to the Central (CENTCOM) and European (EUCOM) Command to the theater to conduct maritime interception operations and coastal security patrols in Iraq and Kuwait.[41] During Operation New Dawn, Coast Guard Reserve units have deployed to the Middle East. The Coast Guard is charged with providing harbor defense and security to ports, seaward approaches, and waterways within U.S. Central Command’s area of responsibility and ensuring the free flow of personnel, equipment and commerce in the region.[42
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and we could go on, but why?

I think you may have missed the point by a wide margin.
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I didn't miss your point Rick.
I understand that the cost of doing business is high, and that there's useless spending in ALL areas of government, from law enforcement, to the "real military", on down to the desk jockey's and "thinkers" (politicians).
We need a major overhaul to get it together, and it's probably not going to happen in our lifetime.

Full List of Armed Federal Agencies | The Truth About Guns

Federal law enforcement in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I could go on nearly forever listing the water cops, duck cops, cat cops, county cops, city cops, library cops, airport cops, port cops, bank cops, park cops, parking lot cops, grocery store cops, private cops ... the list won't stop growing until the each of us is assigned an armed handler.
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Again, no disagreement from me. Poor fiscal management abounds.

I understand that as an ex cop of some sort, you are sensitive to anyone critical of any police organization
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That's an irresponsible assumption IMHO, but you're welcome to it:thumb:
Frankly, the opposite is true, and I've been quite vocal about it for years.
You will find that in fact, due to my background, I'm highly critical of a lot of what we do (and do not do) in law enforcement.

so let's just stick to the point that taxpayer money is wasted providing free transportation to nautical fools by an agency that has more on its plate than it can handle or, in my opinion, should even be assigned.
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A lot of money is spent on stupid across the board.

Have a great day Rick:thumb:
 
Off Duty said:
Ok, upon review I guess you're right. Their role was pretty insignificant I guess...
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Why does that make me right? I never wrote or even implied that "their role was pretty insignificant" those are your words and your sentiments alone. You wrote 'em, you own 'em.

I wrote: "The actions of a handful of Coasties during WW2 does not obligate the nation to dishonor a single part of its history or the actions of its former members, it just stops the pointless waste of our treasury. Our history is filled with deactivated agencies and military units that outlived their purpose. "

Perhaps the wording is a bit convoluted but it means that deactivating a duplicated and surplus military component does not dishonor the men and women who served it in the past.

Don't even think about attributing that sentiment to me in order to discredit my firm belief that we are overloaded with cops and an obscene military budget that serves no one in this nation other than "big brother," defense contractors and their uniformed accomplices.
 
When the job gets tough enough...the costs of civilian contractor or military get very close. Sure...lot's of jobs are cheaper farmed out...but when the doo doo hits the fan, civilian wages skyrocket. Several USCG missions (I was involved in the Aids to Navigation one) were test bedded for civilian takeover...after a year with only a partial takeover the civilian contractors were more expensive.

I'd like to see the comparison done now with a lot of the aids and lights totally reengineered for longer life and aids being less important for instant fixing with GPS now....maybe the civilian contracts would become competitive again.

Then again...there are just some jobs that the USCG and all military outfits have to keep because you can't keep a guy at sea for 24/7/365 for a 30 year career or in combat/high threat areas for the same. So you have rotational jobs which by definition might be wasteful but necessary to keep the machine working.

Sure there are other ways...but no one really has a model that I know of that truly works.

As previously mentioned....if you just eliminated bad decisions and waste, plus really cut back the garbage equipment shoved down the military's/USCG's throats by politicians and bad military contractors....that waste alone would pay for what you did keep and I swear cut the total cost of the military juggernaut by 50%.
 
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Blue Heron said:
The English are getting out of the SAR business ...
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And turning it over to a Texas based company ...

British search and rescue services to be run by US company | UK news | theguardian.com


"Bristow Group Inc. in Houston, TX has a long history of SAR services through its UK subsidiary, beginning in 1971 and extending to 2007, when CHC took the Coast Guard’s contract away from them. Over that history, their helicopters have flown more than 44,000 SAR operational hours in the UK, and conducted over 15,000 SAR missions."
 
RickB said:
Why does that make me right? I never wrote or even implied that "their role was pretty insignificant" those are your words and your sentiments alone. You wrote 'em, you own 'em....
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It was a reference back to your "real military" (soldiers/sailors) comment.
Told you to check your history, and that's what you gave me back. So your call man.

I wrote: "The actions of a handful of Coasties during WW2 does not obligate the nation to dishonor a single part of its history or the actions of its former members, it just stops the pointless waste of our treasury. Our history is filled with deactivated agencies and military units that outlived their purpose. "

Perhaps the wording is a bit convoluted but it means that deactivating a duplicated and surplus military component does not dishonor the men and women who served it in the past.
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Perhaps? Heck man, I read that thing a dozen times, and still couldn't figure out what you meant. That's why I asked (read my response).

Don't even think about attributing that sentiment to me in order to discredit my firm belief that we are overloaded with cops and an obscene military budget that serves no one in this nation other than "big brother," defense contractors and their uniformed accomplices.
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Your concern over BB is going to give you a heart attack. I agree that we spend too much on insignificant things and personnel. Just like the Federal Shutdown recently. It wasn't a popular thought, but if we have that many "non-essential-personnel", then we probably have too many people!:mad:.
I don't "hate" our government, and I don't necessarily blame the cops or military personnel (the boots on the ground types) for it's problems within those agencies. I do blame the administration from top to bottom, for allowing it to become and stay this way. One BIG SUCKING/BLEEDING/FESTERING WOUND on the pocketbook of society.

Look my friend. Your belief is your belief, and I'm not going to change it, very much like you probably won't change mine. That said, if you'd stop for a moment and read, you'd see that we actually agree on more than a few points regarding duplication, budget (especially budget!), and services.:thumb:

Right now, you have CG small boats, Navy Small Boats, Army Boats, hell, even the freaking Air Force has a Navy!:rofl::rofl: ...Why?
While they can all be "justified", why should they?

FWIW, if the CG were contracted out, I'd sign up in a millisecond if I could.:thumb:
 
Blue Heron said:
Hehe. Yea I learned that there are actually THREE different Coast Guards... White Hulls, Black Hulls and Red Hulls..
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usually surface, air and staff...but those are 3 subdivisions....:thumb:
 
I will admit to not reading this entire thread.

But I dare ask..............does the military have a union?
 
No ....but a couple thousand retired snipers must have some pull when it comes to dealing with matters going against the military/retirees....:D
 
Blue Heron said:
Hehe. Yea I learned that there are actually THREE different Coast Guards... White Hulls, Black Hulls and Red Hulls..
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Racists and insensitive! I doth protest!:rofl:

psneeld said:
usually surface, air and staff...but those are 3 subdivisions....:thumb:
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Aw hell! Another subdivision! Now my wife's gonna want to look at the houses....

SaltyDog said:
I will admit to not reading this entire thread.

But I dare ask..............does the military have a union?
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Smart man...and no:D
 
AMSA(Aust Marine Safety Authority) has co-ordinated some extraordinary rescues in the southern waters of Australia, the most memorable involve solo sailors on round the world voyages. Every time there is discussion about "user pays". It costs so much, deploying the Navy, search helicopters, long range search aircraft, most could never pay, but we celebrate a successful rescue. I wonder if sailors can insure the risk, probably not. When someone has to be rescued, they have to be rescued.
We just rescued pax. off a chartered Russian small ship caught in ice while researching in Antarctica, with help from a Chinese icebreaker (it got stuck too) helicopter. Cost Aust. around $2.5M, the ship was eventually freed by ice movement. Will the cost be recovered? Here`s hoping.
 
Civilization will probably always have a mechanism for rescuing even fools...the trick is to make it as cost efficient ass possible..I understand Rick's point and would have loved to been in charge of cutting fools and waste..maybe I would have been first on my list...but I know the suggestions I made through the years more than paid my salary, retirement and med plan for the next 100 years so I feel pretty good...I wish I could say the same for all I served with.

The real costs come when a helo or plane and crew is lost....just the wasted man hours alone in investigations, safety standowns, bad safety idea implementation after the fact, hearings, hand wringing...etc...etc...

I think I enjoyed the reputation from my crews that I would always bring them home.....risking a great SAR resource worth millions and a crew of 4 to possibly save one or two idiotic boaters at extreme risk to the helo crew never added up to me...I would try...and I worked my butt off at being good at what I did so any attempt was a valiant one...but I refused to kill 4 good souls and a helo to possibly save a few knuckleheads. Kids, women and children, hundreds going in the water...sure...maximum effort and that's what we trained for and paid for...the public would have expected no less...but turn the table and even heroic rescues are plain stupidity when the odds are against the rescue crew from the get go and the rescues did nothing in their powers to save themselves.
 
...even heroic rescues are plain stupidity when the odds are against the rescue crew from the get go and the rescues did nothing in their powers to save themselves.
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Very true, and if you have to rescue the rescuer, you haven't helped anyone, and then what have you accomplished?

Thanks:thumb:
 
Off Duty said:
Very true, and if you have to rescue the rescuer, you haven't helped anyone, and then what have you accomplished?
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In the recent incident I quoted in #56 above, at one time the Aust vessel tried to free the Chinese ship also involved in the rescue attempts. Special rescue obligations apply in the Antarctic. Often it becomes "whatever it takes" but no way should rescuers endanger themselves. In offshore sailboat races there are obligations to assist competitors in trouble (with allowances for time spent) but not if it puts the rescuer in danger. Most will help, as much as circumstances allow.
 
psneeld said:
Civilization will probably always have a mechanism for rescuing even fools...the trick is to make it as cost efficient ass possible..I understand Rick's point and would have loved to been in charge of cutting fools and waste..maybe I would have been first on my list...but I know the suggestions I made through the years more than paid my salary, retirement and med plan for the next 100 years so I feel pretty good...I wish I could say the same for all I served with.

The real costs come when a helo or plane and crew is lost....just the wasted man hours alone in investigations, safety standowns, bad safety idea implementation after the fact, hearings, hand wringing...etc...etc...

I think I enjoyed the reputation from my crews that I would always bring them home.....risking a great SAR resource worth millions and a crew of 4 to possibly save one or two idiotic boaters at extreme risk to the helo crew never added up to me...I would try...and I worked my butt off at being good at what I did so any attempt was a valiant one...but I refused to kill 4 good souls and a helo to possibly save a few knuckleheads. Kids, women and children, hundreds going in the water...sure...maximum effort and that's what we trained for and paid for...the public would have expected no less...but turn the table and even heroic rescues are plain stupidity when the odds are against the rescue crew from the get go and the rescues did nothing in their powers to save themselves.
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Concur
 
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