Is this a Willard?

I couldn't get a stern shot but it has that Willard molded in stern detail at the top.

Wow...sure looks like it could be but have never seen theri sailboats and all of the Willard sailboats that come up on YW don't look anything like that.

Not being a sailor, I have to say that I really like the boat! I'll leave the "what is it" up to Eric.

Didn't see the activity down here.

It's a Willard all right * * .. a 30' Horizon. It's not a sail boat actually. Below the WL it's exactly like my Nomad so the sails are sort of a get me home thing. Willard made a real sail boat called the 8 ton. It also is the same as all other 30 footers with a big exception * * *.. it has it's keel extended downward about 15". It's cabin is low like typical sailboats. You will notice Doug's 30' Fales w the black hull right above this message. It is like Daddyo's pics of the Horizon but a knock off from a Willard mould. It may be a better boat than the Willard but as you may guess the Willard owners on the Yahoo Group don't think so. They seem to have an attitude about the Fales. You will notice the small windows in this Horizon. Mostly for this reason the Horizon has a reputation as the most seaworthy of the 30' Willards.


Eric

Biggest visable differences from a stock Horizon motorsailor are that there are three shrouds instead of two and the attach to chainplates on the hull rather than coming thru the pilothouse roof near the after corner.* Possibly the three shrouds are due to a larger mast,* but hard to say from these photos.

The other big difference is the lack of combings aft of the pilothouse.* The original had very high combings just shorter than the pilothouse.* These made up a sort of center cockpit up on top of the lower level cabin roof.

Also no big side window in the lower trunk cabin.*

All three of these things could have been done way down the road.* I have moved my chainplates aft of the house due to to opportunity for water to enter the cabin as any thru deck chainplate is prone to do.

I also cut down my combings and deleted the center cockpit in favor of an after steering,* lifeboat style.

I also did away with the picture window as it had leaked and caused a lot of damage below.* I would be interested to contact these folks to hear about their rig.

Dan Pease

Audition (modified W-30 Vega Horizon

Rockport, Maine

Thanks for the pics Dan. Looks like a fun boat to be out on deck with.*Is any of the green/blue color original gelcoat? Most or all the W30s were originally grey.
At one time mine was so grey it was named "Grey Whale".
My new propeller didn't go as well as planed. Going to take it off and send it out.

Hi Eric and others,

We have made short trips the last two weekends, two nites each.* First trip was a huge success,* no mechanical breakdowns at all.* Very nice.* Second trip went well except for a small lube oil leak that I thought I was fixing blead for about four hours and I didn't check on it til we stopped,* my bad, and there was about a quart of oil in the bilge.* Leve and learn.* I felt like I was at work cleaning up after some detroit diesels!

So other than the engine still leaking oil somewhere, the transmission leak at the coupler, the fuel leak at the injector pump and the cooling water pump leak the engine is running fine.

We have found the boat as rolly as predicted, but are having fun.* I am working on flopper stoppers first for at anchor, and then will be designing fish.

And looking for a taller mast.

The paint is Awl-Grip, a custom color I came up with.* I was looking for a blue green that was cool and easy on the eyes for glare that is.** Nothing in their color chart suited me, so here it is.** The "white" is also tinted to match.* Just the two colors, both hull and deck.** You are right, it was originally GREY.

Your colors are green cove strip and the cabin side Buff?** Around here we call that buff "Jonesport Varnish"** named after the color used on the deck of lobsterboats famously built in that town Downeast.

Sorry to hear about the prop.* Are you going to take pitch out?

Apropos of that subject,* When I repower, I plan to go with the smaller, shorter tranmissions that I have had good luck with before.* With the new engines turning up at a fair amount higher RPM* than the Perkins,* I will probably choose the highest reduction , 3:1? that I can get.* That way I can keep swinging a good sized wheel.* And at that I may still have to take some pitch out.

Right now, at 2400 rpm the boat is going as fast as I ever see neccessary.* I think most of the newer diesels want to be run around 3000 or better.* What did you say you run yours at?* I need to go back over our conversations and take notes.

Dan

Does that make sense to you?

Dan,Yes it does. Beware those short gear boxes require one to mount the engine 2 to 2.5" above the original position. I don't consider that acceptable. I advise to retain the BW. I had mine rebuilt ($1500). My engine is a 4-107 Mitsubishi rated by Mitsu at 37hp but it is exactly the same engine as the Vetus 42hp and the Westerbeke 44hp. Mine is rated as an industrial eng complete w a big white plastic fan on it for radiator use. I get max power at 3000rpm, cruise at 2300 (6.15 kn) or 2500rpm (6.4 kn). These #s are w the old prop that I'm going to put back on. Max rpm at WOT was 3025. PERFECT.
So the British engine leaks * * ..what else is new.
If I had to do this repower again I'd be thinking hard about an Aqua Drive. And I'd probably put in the same engine I've got except the shorter stroke version (33 hp) and (like you are thinking) a 3-1 gear. I had vibration problems w a 3 cyl before and I kinda don't want to go there. However I once had a very very smooth 3cyl engine it did have counter ballancers and a counter rotating flywheel. Not available on small diesels * *..too bad. Have you seen my post on WBO about 3-1 gearing * * .... no response. Have you seen my recient pics hauled out in Craig. Did you give me your phone # ? Please do.


Eric

Eric,

Phone number is 207-975-3491 but give it a few days as I recently took my cell for an accidental swim, and it faired not very well, so a replacement from ebay is on the way. I may not have it by the time we go out for a 5 day cruise starting Tuesday Evening, to return on Sunday. Cell reception is a bit sketchy in the coastal area. I should be back on track by a week from tomorrow. Love to talk.

Is the Borg Warner transmission coupler in line with the crank on the 4-107? I thought you the hurth type transmission was available either in line or as what I call a drop gear where the prop shaft is several inches below the crank shaft of the engine..

I did read your thing about 3:1. I tried to get three to one for my schooner yawlboat in a drop gear but they could no get one with heavy duty rating, and as I needed a drop gear due to boat configuration, I had to settle for less reduction but heavier duty rating.
I will look for your pics.

I just got back from a couple days aboard during the time when the remnants of Hurricane Earl came by Maine. It was anti-climatic (pun intended) in a good way. One nite of solid rain, and two days of good strong wind. I brought the Audition to a little Hurricane hole called Pulpit Harbor on North Haven Island for the storm. Friends were also there and we had a good Hurricane party.

Today I brought the boat back to Rockport against 25 knot SW wind and a good 4-6 foot chop. I was able to carry the mainsail, such as it is, and make a close hauled fetch home. Not real comfortable, but didn't roll too much. Everything else held up very well. I had really wanted to try her out in something rough, and I am fairly pleased with the result. And glad to have done it without my wife aboard. I was also glad to be at my after steering as the motion there is less than forward.

Dan Pease

Audition

Eric,* I am not finding the pictures,* only the one of your boat on the grid, bow on,* (nice Eagle)** Are the pics at WBO or on this site?

Dan

Eric,

Sorry to be a pain,** but I did not check the box that will notify me if you have replied.* I will check it on this post.** There done.

As for the forward engine room W'30 that was discussed here earlier, it is the same as the one named "Abenaki" which has a few launch photos on WBO.* I have seen her but not been aboard.

She is in Round Pond Maine.

Thats 3 w-30s here withing 30 miles of coast.** The other is a searcher* called VEGA moored in Rockland for the summer.* I visited them last weekend,* nice folks.

Dan Pease

Hi Dan,Not a pest at all. I'm even thinking we may some day we should trade visits. I'd vove to come to Maine (never been on the east coast) and see all the lobsterboats, boatyards and other boat stuff. Consider it the meca of the small boat world and some of the wonderful maritime things in Maine don't exist here at all. That reminds me * * * ... were the old lobster boats powered by flathead sixes like Red Wing, Nordberg and Grey of 75 to 125hp?
The monster engines I see in lobsterboats (4-500hp) in National Fisherman are a recent development RIGHT??? The pics I refered to are on the Voyagers page. But I have 5 photo albums on Facebook. Find me there if you can. Eric Henning of Thorne Bay Alaska 99919.
You don't have a land line? I'll call the number you gave.


Eric

Hi Eric,

I did get your phone message.* You are welcome to try again.* My phone took a salt water bath a couple weeks ago,* before I went on the five day cruise east,* and I dragged my feet getting* a replacement as I tried to get a deal on ebay,* which didn't work out,* anyway,* I have another phone now,* same number.


I hear you about the Velvet drive,* but really want to shorten up the engine/transmission unit so I can get at the front of the engine without working blindfolded.* As most of these engines I am looking at are really "sailboat engines"* they are all set up to be worked on from the front,* which is sometimes the only easily accessible place on many sailboats.* Unfortunately, on the Horizon, as the Perkins sits, everything from the front of the valve cover forward is under the wheelhouse deck, and even with the access holes I have expanded to get at the front from the forward cabin, access is limited.* For example, working on either fresh or sea water pumps are sketchy at best.* Belt tension and Alternator work is also limited.

Is the engine in your boat a bit further aft?

The only way I can see to do this is to gain space at the transmission.

Yes that Aqua drive gizmo would be a nice addition,* But my wife is behaving well enuf about my desire for a new engine,* so I better not push that issue.* And I am sure that they are quite proud of that Aqua Drive, dollar wise that is.* And The installation can't be cheap or easy,* as that requires some sort of solid bracket/mount for the new thrust bearing.** Do to the length of the intermediate shaft between the transmission and the thrust bearing, that would have to be back under my cabin sole,* where there is not that much extra space,* or a good place to bolt anything solid to.

On the subject of shaft,* to eliminate the possibility of the vibration originating from the shaft and wheel,* I am going to have both analized after* haul the boat this fall.

And, since the shaft will likely have to be longer, and in the event that my vibration has damaged the shaft where it enters the coupler,* I have a plan.

I plan to cut the shaft about three feet back,* which will have the prop shaft end about two feet aft of the second support bearing from the stern.** I will have a coupler here theat will attach to a coupler on the stub shaft that goes thru the second bearing and attaches to the coupler at the transmission.

This will have several benefits that I see.

1.* Whenever cutlass bearing or stuffing box work has to be done,* only the after section of the shaft needs to be moved.

2.* If I ever am in some remote location and need a new shaft shipped in,* there will be shorter pieces,* which might come thru shipping better.

3.* The coupler under the cabin sole,* between the two support bearings, will be stiffened by having the coupler in the middle of that length.

4.* I won't have to buy a new longer shaft for this change,* just have a new stub shaft made, and have the old shaft cut short, and have on the new forward end..a new end machined on the forward end of the old shaft.

I hope my new engine installation,* which I plan to do myself goes a lot better than what the company I work for is going thru.** They finally decided to replace a GM 12V71. in a small tug that we have.* They chose a six cylindar Cat, and have taken one lump after another.** First, the engine that was supposed to be deliverewd in one week took three.* Then Cat dragged their feet* in working out how much keel cooling was needed, 2 more weeks.* Then they decided a manufactured keel cooler would be needed instead of just using steel channel welded to the bottom.* Then the rush order for the new keel cooler was misplaced by Cat and another one week turned into 3,* after a two week delay in the original figuring.

Good thing work has been slow and they were able to shuffle work around between the two other tugs that we have.** Good news or bad,* the other tugs each have 12V71s in them,* and we had hoped that this new engine would be a for-runner of maybe getting the others replaced.* With all the SNAFU they may have a bad taste in their mouths about doing this again.* Or maybe they will just be able to plan things ahead a bit better.

Things in Maine are finally starting to cool off.* After Labor Day and the start of school,* traffic starts thinning out.** The good days out on the water are nice, but a rainy day can get pretty raw.** But I don't have to tell you anything about cool or damp or cold weather.** You have enuf of that.

Dan Pease

Hi Dan,Been watching for your post. Kinda forgot about the phone. I'll call you tomorrow. Hope I get good w timing.
Sounds good about the shaft and coupling. Are you lookin at the sleeve type or the flange type. I'm thinkin sleeve would be better.
My Mitsu has service on the stbd side. H ballancer, raw water pump and alternator only on the front end. I could remove the RW pump and work on it anywhere. My filters are aft and stbd. My raw water pump is off to the side stbd. You can get the 33 or 37 hp Mitsu w/o gear for $6K (as I recall) from Klassen. They also have the 32hp Isuzu 3 cyl. You may want to consider the 40 hp 3 cyl Yanmar JH but I'm sure it would cost much more. I don't know Dan * * *....I sure like that BW VD.
Ask me about engine hatches. See my photos I took on our skiff trip out west on "voyagers ..." Caught some magic weather.


Eric

Just a note on the Aqua Drive.

The unit can be a problem replacing a std shaft IF you do not intentionally create an angle in the drive line.

The car parts rely on the angle to move the lubricant and will wear out rapidly if no angle is present.

I would get the softest mounts from Aqua , set the engine flat in the boat , and be sure All the attachments , fuel in & out , exhaust , and wiring and controls are extra long., and flexible.

With a good water lift muffler ,& some soundown 2 lb /sq the boat will be very enjoyable

That's true Fred. AD recommends (I think) 2 or 3 degrees misalignment for longest life and recommends against straight alignment. I had the smallest AD in my Albin and it was good but did'nt solve my vibration problems in that boat. A light boat seems to shake w a diesel aboard. I've got plastic motor mounts now and am quite pleased. Enough that I'll probably not change * * but if I was to do a refit and had the time * * ...you bet.

Fred and Eric,

Just out of curiosity,* how much does this Aqua Drive cost?** Really just for my info so I can feel good about saving some bucks.

Eric,* What kind of "plastic engine mounts"? are you using.* I am familiar with the Yanmar type, and the covered type, I think vetus makes.* I'm thinking they are covered to keep oil out.** Mine certainly have had the oil treatment, which has probably hastened their demise.**

BTW,* What is an H ballancer?

Still considering the Mitsu 33 frfom Klassen.

Dan

Dan,H ballancer is basically the pulley on the front of the crankshaft.
My Aqua Drive cost $1500 as I recall 10 yrs ago.
The S4L2 is 37hp w 78 X 92 mm
The S4L is 33.5hp w 78 X 78.5 mm
The Mitsu's are rated with a big wihite plastic fan on the front. The S4L2 (37hp) is the EXACT same engine that is 42hp in the Vetus line and 44hp in the Westerbeke line.
All three are the same.


Eric

I love Overkill, so the drive in our 90/90 was way oversized ,OK for 60HP in a boat burning 3/4 gph.

But at the time I was OEM , so it too was about $1800.

FF,Is a Python Drive any better, cheaper ect.
Wat's a 90/90? You've used that expression before

FF,

Now I am curious,* were you the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM), or in the Office of Emergency Management (OEM)?

Dan

Eric,

I have been looking at PolyFlex.** Do you recall which type mounts you are using?* There are many,* PD, PF, PM, PH, P, .5F, .5CTF* for starters.


Also,* Have you tried one of their flexible couplings,** and do they make the orange "drive-saver"?

Thanks,

Dan

Hi Dan,I think they make all their stuff and I have'nt used the flexible couplings. I think if one has a mount that actually absorbs vibration only a small amount of movement is required and my engine dos'nt move to the extent that it can been seen * *...even at slow speeds. With very little movement I don't think flexible couplings are of any benefit. I have experience with the PYI flexible coupling. They can be good but one must be careful which one you choose or you can damage your transmission. Ask me. And I don't know what model of engine mount I have. I'll try and find out. There is a WBO member that also has Poly Flex mounts.

Hi Eric,

I have been corresponding with beta marine and they are suggesting the beta 38.* They also suggest that I spruce up the BWVD and use it as it is quite strong.* They also suggest having the rear engine mounts on the tranny.* They also have suggested a prop of 18 by 12.* And the exhaust manifold is solid.

Sounds like a good direction to me.* I am trying to get a price from them.* To include 2 panels, remote oil filter set up, 100 amp alternator, adaptor for BWVD transmission including oil cooler, and my own engine mounts.

I will contact poly-flex and se what they recommend for engine mounts.

Dan

Looks like a really good engine Dan. The Kabota I had the hots for was 113 cu in 42 hp at 2800 and weighed about 550#. Marinized by Universal I wanted to come back to it but they dropped it * *... prolly didn't make tier ll. Anyway The beta 38 is a 4cyl and if you use the BW your eng/trans will be as long as mine AND as long as the Perkins (I think but maybe a bit shorter). The Beta has the water pump on the front of the engine but I assume your'e thinking to put it off to the side like my Jabsco. Yes * ...the BW is strong. It's not uncommon to see them hooked up to 300 hp engines. Does the B38 have an iron exmanifold? That would really be good. I'll look in my paperwork today and see if I can find out what Poly Flex mount I have on the Willy. Later

Hi Eric,

Pretty sure it has the cast exhaust man.* All looks good so far as I can see.* And I will check out the jabsco issue too.

We brought some folks out for the afternoon yesterday, six in the cockpit pretty cozy.* Today we had another nice day and brought Audition to Rockland where I get hauled.* (They haul me on a tavel-lift, then bring me to my house on a Brownell Hydraulic trailer)* After we got to Rockland a friend helped me lower the mast (on the tabernackle) and we got that all tied down on the house-top.

Sad to see the season come to a close, but the BW is making bad noises and getting hard to shift sometimes, and spewing more from the rear end, and I am having trouble keeping coolant in her.* I must remember to run her with antifreeze before I mothball the old girl.

Thanks in advance for the research on the engine mounts.* I am finding prices from $40 each to $140 each, but also find a lot of part numbers that don't correspond.

Dan

Dan

OEM , Orig equip mfg, (AKA BOATBUILDER) equals a 50%+10% +2% discount on marine gear direct from the mfg.


A 90/90 is a motorsailor that only compromises the sail portion because of the weight of engine ,fuel and batts.

Only compromises as a motorboat by pushing a sail rig thru the air.

Foam core construction allows custom builds with minimal weight, so a motorsailer can perform well.

There is extra complexity as an indexing prop brake is required , as is a 2 blade prop .

The Herrishoff rule of 7-1 LWL to Draft allows a 33ft boat with 28 ft LWL to go most shallow places , and the full keel helps if the water gets too thin .

Sails are a far simpler way to get ocean cruising range with a smaller boat.

A Windhorse is nice , but the price tag isn't.

FF,I figured it was a sailboat/powerboat thing. Perhaps a 90/10 being a 90% sailboat and 10% powerboat and then the other way around. Dan's boat being a 10/90. But how do you get over 100 * ...percent that is.

Dan,Went through two stacks of old papers and nothing on mounts. Chris says she has more upstairs somewhere and will get out tomorrow.


Eric

But how do you get over 100 ...percent that is.


The vessel is able to operate at the 90+% of the std boat.

90/90 is descriptive of the boats ability.

The old 50/50 WAS descriptive of the old motorsailors..

50% as good as a real sailor due to the usual tiny M/S rig as no one expected a M/S to ghost in light conditions or point high , due to shallow keel and massive weights , hull, fuel , engine, toys.

50% as good as a motor boat , as the house structure could not soar 30 ft in the air 2,3,4 levels high , not a desirable Roomaran.
And in the larger sizes the 7-1 depth kept them further from shore , and out of shallow anchorages. 49LWL needs a 7 ft draft , or the extra complexity of a center board.

Many of today's cruising auxilaries would rate 90% in the sail side (with folding prop) and do well as motor boats too.

The ICW is filled with "sail" boats that haven't had the cover off the mainsail in years , a roller jib is all they use on rare occasions.

-- Edited by FF on Tuesday 5th of October 2010 08:41:13 AM