Remove old AC thru-hull?

psneeld said:

Unfortunately...Marinco probably states that the 15amp boat inlet that's designed for charging bassboat batteries after a tough day on the lake is adequate if all that's attached is a batt charger and an extension cord to the boat inlet.

Not what I would like to see...and a much better setup for a boat on a trailer in your driveway but I'm not sure if that's the total 110V electrical system on a boat that it's dangerous. Especially as I posted before if adequate safeguards are in place only a few feet away.

Many marinas I have the displeasure of working out of have far more dangerous setups than what we are talking here....year after year with no issues.

I would like to see an ABYC compliant setup as we are starting fresh with a minimal system so minimal pieces and parts are required...but I also can't get too excited about something akin to an extension cord running to a batt charger on the boat not needing space travel safety levels.

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Psneeld, your position surprises me. An extension cord to a bass boat in the driveway is significantly different than a boat in water plugged into a shore pedestal. We are talking about $20 bucks for a breaker, hardly space travel safety level.

I am involved in a law suit at the moment over a similar condition. Unfortunately the guy without a proper grounding system lost his boat but so did three innocent neighbours.

boatpoker said:

Psneeld, your position surprises me. An extension cord to a bass boat in the driveway is significantly different than a boat in water plugged into a shore pedestal. We are talking about $20 bucks for a breaker, hardly space travel safety level.

I am involved in a law suit at the moment over a similar condition. Unfortunately the guy without a proper grounding system lost his boat but so did three innocent neighbours.

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I'm in between...I see the justification...but I also think it's pretty ridiculous to break the AC system into a bunch of pieces then justify having a breaker at each piece...

In the big scheme of things...explain why a boat on a trailer is any bigger an electrical hazard than one floating in a slip? I know the basics..but really...at which piece and part does what danger exist? And how is it different in the 2 scenarios?

Remember...we are only talking about a single batt charger that is basically plugged directly into a dock receptacle that is protected by a CB.

If he has a typical batt carger plugged into an extension cord, plugged into the dock power post...how is that dangerous and how is his proposed setup a lot different?

psneeld said:

Unfortunately...Marinco probably states that the 15amp boat inlet that's designed for charging bassboat batteries after a tough day on the lake is adequate if all that's attached is a batt charger and an extension cord to the boat inlet. Not what I would like to see...and a much better setup for a boat on a trailer in your driveway but I'm not sure if that's the total 110V electrical system on a boat that it's dangerous. Especially as I posted before if adequate safeguards are in place only a few feet away. Many marinas I have the displeasure of working out of have far more dangerous setups than what we are talking here....year after year with no issues. I would like to see an ABYC compliant setup as we are starting fresh with a minimal system so minimal pieces and parts are required...but I also can't get too excited about something akin to an extension cord running to a batt charger on the boat not needing space travel safety levels.

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Yep, it's ashame. One of these kits would be good for him also. http://boatwiringstore.com/boat-wiring/ac/

psneeld said:

I'm in between...I see the justification...but I also think it's pretty ridiculous to break the AC system into a bunch of pieces then justify having a breaker at each piece... In the big scheme of things...explain why a boat on a trailer is any bigger an electrical hazard than one floating in a slip? I know the basics..but really...at which piece and part does what danger exist? And how is it different in the 2 scenarios? Remember...we are only talking about a single batt charger that is basically plugged directly into a dock receptacle that is protected by a CB. If he has a typical batt carger plugged into an extension cord, plugged into the dock power post...how is that dangerous and how is his proposed setup a lot different?

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Exactly, what I'm trying to justify here. Thanks.

Remember.... I'm not convinced there's any big safety issue to justify hundreds in a system like that or a $39 Marinco batt charger inlet.

But with Fire/Electric and expensive diesels I tend to spend and worry less....

Ok I surrender .....

and this is the charger (without a circuit breaker) that caused it ...

boatpoker said:

and this is the charger (without a circuit breaker) that caused it ...

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What kind of charger, was it marine grade?

I have not been able to identify the charger (yet) but the idiot also mounted it directly over the batteries.

boatpoker said:

idiot

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Exacly, he was dumb about it, he deserved it, but it's ashamed he had to bring two other down with him. just don't be dumb about it, as long as you use the proper wire, and connectors, your fine.

N4712 said:

Exacly, he was dumb about it, he deserved it, but it's ashamed he had to bring two other down with him. just don't be dumb about it, as long as you use the proper wire, and connectors, your fine.

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And a circuit breaker !

boatpoker said:

And a circuit breaker !

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Again, you could just use an existential cord with a GFCI built in!

Again ... illegal in US, Canada and EU. and will probably void your insurance as you cannot insure illegal activities.
What the heck can anybody have against a $20 breaker ?

boatpoker said:

Again ... illegal in US, Canada and EU. and will probably void your insurance as you cannot insure illegal activities. What the heck can anybody have against a $20 breaker ?

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I'm not saying that, I'm saying if he doesn't want to he has an alternate. AND IF he wired it strait, with proper tinned marine wire and heat shrink terminals he would not have a problem. the charger in your picture looks like a regular golf cart charger adapted to marine use, also that wire doesn't looked tinned which means something could have corroded underneath the heart shrink where the terminal meets the stranded wire. Like Psneeld said thousands of boats have did the same with NO problems whatsoever, including me. Illegal, void insurance? I've seen multiple boats rigged with the wrong terminals, outlets, and other things. They all had current insurance. And illegal, I've seen a lot people fined and sent to jail for improper wiring, NOT.

I'm no expert and won't pretend to portray one either. I would however love for one to tell me how many marine insurance companies have denied to cover a loss on a boat due to wiring not being to spec?

I see plenty of land based losses incurred by electrics not being "up to code" and have never heard of a claim not being paid because of it yet.

boatpoker said:

Again ... illegal in US, Canada and EU. and will probably void your insurance as you cannot insure illegal activities.
What the heck can anybody have against a $20 breaker ?

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Illegal activities such as using the boat to run drugs or illegally racing cannot be insured, but illegal activities such as drunk driving or running a stop sign are covered by the insurance policy.

If the boat exploded and burned because there was a meth lab on board, the insurance company might be able to get away with not paying, but not just because he didn't know to install a fuse in a circuit or used the wrong value fuse.

You can't fix stupid, but you can insure it.

My concern is, if the OP can't figure out on his own how to remove the shore power inlet on his boat, he probably shouldn't be doing electrical work on it, at least without on-site supervision by a qualified person.

And of course there's this question - Why not leave the shore power inlet intact and wire the charger to the boat side (with a fuse or circuit breaker, of course)?

WesK said:

Why not leave the shore power inlet intact and wire the charger to the boat side (with a fuse or circuit breaker, of course)?

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My guess has it's heavily corroded. But that's just my guess.

Greetings,
" My concern is, if the OP can't figure out on his own how to remove the shore power inlet on his boat, he probably shouldn't be doing electrical work on it..."
BINGO!!!!

The usual big hassle with using non marine chargers for boat use is understanding how the charger is grounded .

Some wiring methods can install enough electric to pink the boats bronze.

OK, first I'll admit that until now I hadn't paid attention to the inlet, other than to notice how corroded it is on the inside. It's currently hidden by shrink wrap. Based on the comments above I have pored through various pics of the boat on my computer and am thankful to now note that there are 4 screws attaching the flange to the outside wall. This realization probably answers my question. A lot of trouble to get to that pretty basic point! :lol:

To those who suggests that because I was unfamiliar with how these things are secured to the boat I should pay a professional to plug in a 12A battery charger, I'll remain civil and bite my tongue.

I'll also admit that I have been laboring under the (false?) idea that attaching this charger via a quality extension to the exiting GFCI protected plug in on the dock pedestal, with the charger leads to the batteries fused inline and the case grounded to the engine ground, all in accordance with the instructions, would be appropriate.

The charger is not to be hard wired to the inlet receptacle - it attached by way of the 3-prong plug intrinsic to the unit itself. It has not occurred to me to cut the power cord to insert another breaker there. I doubt anyone would actually do that.

The pic below shows the existing inlet location. I plan to located the charger at/to the cross pieces in front of the holding tank. The charger will be open to the wheelhouse and separated from the battery compartment by the flooring.

If there is something else that should be done I would be eager to hear of it!

Sunset said:

The charger is not to be hard wired to the inlet receptacle - it attached by way of the 3-prong plug intrinsic to the unit itself. It has not occurred to me to cut the power cord to insert another breaker there. I doubt anyone would actually do that.

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No need to cut the AC power cord, just ensure that the charger is plugged into an AC outlet (onboard) that is protected by a circuit breaker (onboard). If this is the only AC outlet onboard it should either be a double pole breaker or a single pole with a polarity indicator.

WesK said:

Illegal activities such as using the boat to run drugs or illegally racing cannot be insured, but illegal activities such as drunk driving or running a stop sign are covered by the insurance policy.

If the boat exploded and burned because there was a meth lab on board, the insurance company might be able to get away with not paying, but not just because he didn't know to install a fuse in a circuit or used the wrong value fuse.

You can't fix stupid, but you can insure it.

My concern is, if the OP can't figure out on his own how to remove the shore power inlet on his boat, he probably shouldn't be doing electrical work on it, at least without on-site supervision by a qualified person.

And of course there's this question - Why not leave the shore power inlet intact and wire the charger to the boat side (with a fuse or circuit breaker, of course)?

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The underwriter's lawyers in the case I'm involved with disagree. You may be right but it's going to cost the boat owner big bucks to prove it. Not many of us have the financial means to take on an underwriter in a $500k claim right or wrong.

i'BP----> Ill have to look into how to do that, what product will address that.

CPseudonym said:

I'm no expert and won't pretend to portray one either. I would however love for one to tell me how many marine insurance companies have denied to cover a loss on a boat due to wiring not being to spec?

I see plenty of land based losses incurred by electrics not being "up to code" and have never heard of a claim not being paid because of it yet.

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There is no ABYC, CFR, CE or Transport Canada requirement to use tinned conductors.

boatpoker said:

There is no ABYC, CFR, CE or Transport Canada requirement to use tinned conductors.

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Oh, but there is here. Wonder why that is?

N4712 said:

Oh, but there is here. Wonder why that is?

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Where is "here" ? Your signature indicates you are in the US. If you are in the US please tell me what authotity requires tinned conductors, Certainly not the US Code of Federal Regulations.

boatpoker said:

Where is "here" ? Your signature indicates you are in the US. If you are in the US please tell me what authotity requires tinned conductors, Certainly not the US Code of Federal Regulations.

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Wait I thought you were talking about Canada, there's not standard in the US for tinned conductors?

N4712 said:

Wait I thought you were talking about Canada, there's not standard in the US for tinned conductors?

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There is no legal requirement for tinned conductors in the US (CFR's), Canada (TP1332E), Europe (CE, RCD's) or any of the voluntary standards (ABYC, SAE, NFPA, UL, CSA, IEEE etc.) Although I personally believe it is a good idea, particularily in salt water.

If the OP were to run an extension cord through a door or window, plug the male end into a dock receptacle and plug the charger into the female end of the extension cord, he would be fine.

Once he decides to put a permanent power inlet on the boat and hard wire either the charger or a receptacle, he has in effect installed a shore power system on the boat and it should meet certain standards. The one we keep missing here is that the main circuit breaker (if there is only one, it would be the "main") must disconnect both the hot and neutral conductors when tripped or switched. A fuse cannot do that, it has to be a double pole circuit breaker.

That said, there are no boat police inspecting the wiring on private boats that don't carry passengers so he can do whatever he wants to and answer to no one unless there's an injury or death or property damage to someone else's property. Hacked wiring may be a problem when he attempts to sell the boat.

N4712 said:

Wait I thought you were talking about Canada, there's not standard in the US for tinned conductors?

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Nope, you can even used non-stranded wire on non-inspected boats.

There are commercial boats out there with household romex in them.

Not ABYC compliant but depending if you have to be....