Another LED expensive bulb vs cheapie ebay/chinese question re: CCCV

So if I understand correctly (please jump in if I don't!)...

a good reason to go with a more expensive bulb from a reliable source like superbrightleds.com is because they include a CCCV (Constant Current-Constant Voltage) driver IN the bulb. While our batteries may be 12v batteries, as they "run down" that voltage does not stay the same. While charging it does not stay the same either, and if I understand correctly, these voltage changes can be detrimental to the normal lifespan of an LED. That is why most with knowledge recommend staying away from the cheapie ebay bulbs (though you CAN buy separate drivers for the bulbs on ebay too or what they call "buck converters", pretty cheaply).

The CCCV buck converters take a varying DC supply and regulate it.

Is there also a way to use an ac source to power these? On shore power it would be directly hooked to your regular ac, but when on the hook or traveling it would be hooked to an ac to dc converter powered by your boat's inverter?

My initial thought was a desktop computer power supply. I have several sitting here that are 400W units, and it made me think. I asked an ebay seller what his 5M long 12v strip LEDs required for power, and his reply was 5 amps. Converting amps to watts....that's 60W for a 15 ft length of LEDS.

Those LED strips are made to be cut to just about any length, and they even sell the quick fit ends for wiring them up. And then there are the old G4 pin bulb fixtures all over my boat.....those bulbs on ebay range from $1 to whatever depending on how many LEDs are in them. People here have already tried them and they work very well.......

...just wondering if the voltage can be regulated more simply using an ac source?

Seems like it might be cheaper than buying $20+ bulbs?

Why make it so compicated? DC to AC converters and vise versa, no need just 12v bulbs are fine. I wouldn't worry about voltage spikes/drops, that's more of a paranoia kinda thing, we've had superbrightleds in our camano for 3 years with all kinds of voltage spikes and drops, we have no problems.

aronhk_md said:

...just wondering if the voltage can be regulated more simply using an a/c source?

Seems like it might be cheaper than buying $20+ bulbs?

Click to expand...

I use the same model light bars on my boat for decor lights and under cabinet counter lighting in my home. Of course the boat is 12 volt DC. The house AC current is run through a power supply.

Installation/Power Supplies/Misc | Super Bright LEDs

They both get a lot of use.

Yes guys.....but that's exactly what I'm saying.....the superbrightled bulbs/lights you guys have ARE regulated with a CCCV if I understand correctly, and I am specifically looking at the cheapie ebay type stuff. If I buy what you have for my boat I could easily spend $1000 or more. By sticking to ebay and perhaps regulating another way it might be way cheaper.

I should have maybe been more clear....

superbrightleds X a whole boat = expensive & reliable

ebay leds X a whole boat = cheap...but can it be done reliably by regulating the power source overall from an a/c source?

aronhk_md said:

Yes guys.....but that's exactly what I'm saying.....the superbrightled bulbs/lights you guys have ARE regulated with a CCCV if I understand correctly, and I am specifically looking at the cheapie ebay type stuff. If I buy what you have for my boat I could easily spend $1000 or more. By sticking to ebay and perhaps regulating another way it might be way cheaper

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By some, do testing and see if the ebay ones are up to par, and work.

My understanding was that the cheap LED bulbs had a simple resistor in the circuit that often causes Radio Frequency (RF) interference.

There is a great resource on LED's available at Marine Beam (great product as well): The Idiots Guide to Marine LEDs

Good Luck,

I remanufactured every 12 volt light on my boat with the ebay 48 LED panels. I removed the bulb sockets and put in the panels. All of my 12 volt lights, maybe 40 of them from the engine room to the radar arch are working perfectly at dock and cruising for maybe 4 years now. My premise is they are no more sensitive to voltage changes than my electronics.

Thanks Scott, I had seen that article posted before, and it does have good info.

1) It explains why you cant just plug the ebay cheapie bulbs in and expect them to live. When your battery charger kicks in and the boat voltage is more like 15v it is reducing the life of the LED through heat, and when the voltage drops to say 10-11v in between charging your lights are weak.

2) companies like superbrightled put cccv's in their bulbs to regulate the individual bulbs. This is a dc to dc converter. Even if it only gets 10v power it converts it to 12v for the bulb. Same true when it gets 15v.

It gets expensive regulating each bulb though, at least for now, so superbrightled and Marine Beam are able to charge what they do and make a profit....selling $20+ bulbs. So if in your boat you have 50 bulbs, at $20ea......$1000......its expensive.

3) What I am saying is take this part of that article written by Jeff Field at Marine Beam and look at it.

"Almost all of the inexpensive 12v LED cluster bulbs being sold today use a ballast resistor which bleeds off energy to limit the current. A ballast resistor can limit current according to a simple formula, which is: Voltage/Resistance=Current. So, if one knows the current required by the LED and also knows the source voltage, it is easy enough to select the correct ballast resistor for the resistor part of the equation. One can see from the formula that is resistance is constant, and the voltage goes up (or down), so does the current proportionately. It follows then that the current can only be limited if the Voltage is limited. So, a ballast resistor would work fine if the voltage source is a transformer plugged into the wall that is providing a constant 12VDC. At precisely 12V the ballast resistor will just bleed off excess energy in the form of heat, and the LED will be happy running at the right current."

So what about BUYING cheapie ebay bulbs at $1 each, 50 bulbs would be $50. install them. Disconnect the wires leading to them at your 12v panel. Connect those wires to a computer power supply capable of handling the wattage/amperage ($20 on sale at Best Buy or ebay). Now plug THAT into your 120/240V panel.

Turn your lights on.

Total cost......$70

aronhk_md said:

I asked an ebay seller what his 5M long 12v strip LEDs required for power, and his reply was 5 amps. Converting amps to watts....that's 60W for a 15 ft length of LEDS.

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5 amps for about 15 feet of LEDs doesn't pass my sanity check.

Thomas, I hear you.....and have thought about just plugging them in too......see what happens. I know you aren't the only one who has had success doing so. Even at a reduced life, if you changed bulbs once in a while it would take an awfully long time to approach the cost of bulbs from someplace like superbrightleds. I guess my thought is, if I can do this 100% right for an extra $20 and a few minutes at my electrical panel, since I do live aboard.....maybe its the better choice?

Besides, I like the idea of an alternative way floating around out there if it makes sense.

What I'd like to hear from some of the electrical gurus is......does this make sense?

aronhk_md said:

So what about BUYING cheapie ebay bulbs at $1 each, 50 bulbs would be $50. install them. Disconnect the wires leading to them at your 12v panel. Connect those wires to a computer power supply capable of handling the wattage/amperage ($20 on sale at Best Buy or ebay). Now plug THAT into your 120/240V panel.

Click to expand...

It would certainly be worth trying. I have no idea how constant the voltage is in a computer power supply, but I'm guessing it would be close enough?

obthomas.......I am trying to get further verification on amperage from other ebay sellers selling the same 5M strands. But you figure, a desktop computer doesn't use all of its 400W power supply all the time, and if I had 8 of those 15 ft strips (that's a lot of lights for 400 watts) I wouldn't be using them all the time either. That's the equivalent of 4 100watt bulbs compared to 120 ft of lighting.

15 ft of lights would probably light up a whole salon very brightly....for the cost of one 60 watt bulb.

BTW....many of these lights are dimmable too, they sell the dimmers on ebay.

Boydski said:

There is a great resource on LED's available at Marine Beam (great product as well): The Idiots Guide to Marine LEDs

Good Luck,

Click to expand...

Fair amount of blowing air in a paper bag...........If the guy weren't selling LEDs the paper might have been better.

From an ebay add for 5 meters of 300 LEDS Less than 1/2 amp per meter .

● Working Voltage: 12VDC

● LED Quantity: 300 leds/5 Mete

● Working Current/meter: 0.35-0.4A

obthomas.....aha! Thanks! I was looking for one that had the current requirements. So more like .5 amps.....that's even better!

About 2 amps for 5 meters

Gotcha....read it wrong, that's per meter.....so right! 2 amps per 5M. Now I'm just waiting for the experts to step in and comment on the computer power source or other ac to dc 12v type supply.

Greetings,
Mr. ob. "sanity check"? Surely given the season you MEAN Sanity Clause.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. ob. "sanity check"? Surely given the season you MEAN Sanity Clause.

Click to expand...

Naw... I meant sanity check......not Santa Deck. I'm not in the Christmas spirit until next week.

aronhk_md said:

So if I understand correctly (please jump in if I don't!)...

a good reason to go with a more expensive bulb from a reliable source like superbrightleds.com is because they include a CCCV (Constant Current-Constant Voltage) driver IN the bulb. While our batteries may be 12v batteries, as they "run down" that voltage does not stay the same. While charging it does not stay the same either, and if I understand correctly, these voltage changes can be detrimental to the normal lifespan of an LED. That is why most with knowledge recommend staying away from the cheapie ebay bulbs (though you CAN buy separate drivers for the bulbs on ebay too or what they call "buck converters", pretty cheaply).

The CCCV buck converters take a varying DC supply and regulate it.

Is there also a way to use an ac source to power these? On shore power it would be directly hooked to your regular ac, but when on the hook or traveling it would be hooked to an ac to dc converter powered by your boat's inverter?

My initial thought was a desktop computer power supply. I have several sitting here that are 400W units, and it made me think. I asked an ebay seller what his 5M long 12v strip LEDs required for power, and his reply was 5 amps. Converting amps to watts....that's 60W for a 15 ft length of LEDS.

Those LED strips are made to be cut to just about any length, and they even sell the quick fit ends for wiring them up. And then there are the old G4 pin bulb fixtures all over my boat.....those bulbs on ebay range from $1 to whatever depending on how many LEDs are in them. People here have already tried them and they work very well.......

...just wondering if the voltage can be regulated more simply using an ac source?

Seems like it might be cheaper than buying $20+ bulbs?

Click to expand...

OK, all theories aside, I replaced 64 halogen bulbs this last spring with cheapo Ebay LED bulbs that cost all of $1.30 each.

I had zero out of the box failures, and zero failures all season. My battery voltage varied all accross the board. I anchored out, I ran the generator, I ran the engines, I plugged into shore power.

Again, No failures, None.

You can pay more for LED bulbs, and people can make any argument they want to justify why they spent several times the amount I spent.

The fact is that my bulbs work great, and with the money I saved I probably bought a seasons worth of fuel.

All this talk of needing power regulators, etc... is pure unadulterated BS.

Whoever reads this and tries to quote me electronic or electrical theory, please do not even try. I make my living as an expert in electrical and electronics, and have made my living at this for well over 30 years. I understand the theory.

What I know is that the cheap Ebay bulbs work great. This is not theory, it is fact.

Kevin, yours was one of the success stories I think I read before on just "plug and play" in someone elses thread. So you don't think its worth bothering with one of these power supplies even though I have one sitting here?

aronhk_md said:

Kevin, yours was one of the success stories I think I read before on just "plug and play" in someone elses thread. So you don't think its worth bothering with one of these power supplies even though I have one sitting here?

Click to expand...

I'm assuming your boat is set up for 12 volt lighting.

If thats the case buy some LED bulbs and plug them into your existing fixtures.

No, I would not rewire my boat with a special power supply even if I had one ready to install.

Give it a try. You have very little to loose and allot to save. $20 and a few minutes time and you can try out several of them and see how you like them.

Just replaced all the G4 halogens in the saloon with cheapie ebay LEDs. Also put one of those ebay 5m led light strips in the cockpit. Fantastic result - only I'm gping to replace the saloon LEDs with warm white (accidentally bought the harsh bluish-white coloured ones - oh well, $15 bucks is a relatively cheap lesson). No issues at all in 2 weekend trips (although I admit, that;s hardly a long evaluation period).

How does it work if you want a dimable LED light?

You turn the knob or hold the button until the light is at the desired level.

ksanders said:

What I know is that the cheap Ebay bulbs work great. This is not theory, it is fact.

Click to expand...

There is an echo around here.....................

obthomas said:

There is an echo around here.....................

Click to expand...

You guys ought to know by now that actual hands on experience doesn't count for squat.

RickB said:

You guys ought to know by now that actual hands on experience doesn't count for squat.

Click to expand...

SQUAT, you have been spending too much time in the "fast disolving TP" discussion.

RickB said:

You guys ought to know by now that actual hands on experience doesn't count for squat.

Click to expand...

Rick, I'm starting to see your frustration.

I think squat is busy over on the weightlifting forums at the moment. But one thing to consider when doing the plug n play route is not only whether the bulb or strip fails before its 30,000-100,000 hr life, but also I have read they can stop producing as much light. So just as a "what if?", its quite possible that the 15V charging cycle COULD cause your bulbs to lose efficiency at some point, and only put out 90%? 80%? 70%? When would we even notice? How many hrs of operation at 15v would it take? Would we even notice at all? Do we care? lol

I'm thinking I should order some LEDs as suggested and just play with them. Since I live aboard and spend a lot of time at the dock, I may just continue with the idea of running them off an ac to dc converter. Not because I think at this point from the responses that I couldn't plug and play...but rather because most of the time I have my 12v panel switched off here and I have not delved into the 12v system enough to know that if I have it on all the time at the dock that something there isn't squirrely (I've already gone through and replaced the 240v panel and traced all the wires, but not yet on the 12v).

The dimmers for the LED lights seem to mostly be RF and open range is listed at >15M, less in enclosed spaces with walls, etc. I don't see different radio frequencies listed...just one. So that makes me wonder how you could do more than one dimmable on board. Also, some LEDs listed say dimmable, but the majority don't say anything. So it makes me wonder, are they all dimmable and just don't say so? or...? ALSO, THERE ARE NON-RF DIMMERS. THE HARD WIRED KIND ARE THERE, BUT THERE ARE FEWER OF THEM LISTED.

I have come up with some info on brightness, so I'll share what I have gleaned. There seems to be a lot of variation in the LEDs. First, an old incandescent bulb wasted a lot of wattage in heat. New LEDs tend to use Lumens instead of wattage for light measurement. Here are some common equivalents. Generally...

9W LED = 40W incandescent bulbs
12W LED = 60W incandescent bulbs

Also, a typical incandescent bulb produces 16 Lumens per watt. So a...

100W bulb = 1600 Lumens
60W bulb = 960 Lumens
40W bulb = 640 Lumens

Now in all honesty its pretty confusing online, so I have only listed some of the numbers I have seen. I have also seen some places listing a 40W bulb equaling 450 Lumens and a 60W bulb equaling 800 Lumens, so it really depends what you read and believe.

All I know is you cant just take an LEDs wattage and compare to what an incandescent bulbs wattage was. The incandescent loses most of its wattage in heat.

When talking about the 12v lighting strips on ebay available in different cuttable lengths up to 5M rolls, there seem to be 3 different kinds and each kind is available in a non-waterproof and waterproof version. They are as follows below, with the 5630 version being the newest type AND BRIGHTEST. Connectors are available for these so you can cut to your own length, drivers (if you don't want to trust just plugging them into your 12v system as we discussed in this thread), and dimmers. I think the 3528 series is most useful as mood lighting only.

These are listed as SMD (please don't ask me, I have no clue what SMD is, I looked. lol) type strips and apparently decay slower than some other types of LEDs. ALL LEDs decay in the light they produce, even with proper voltage. With a 100,000 hr lifespan on these babies I think its a moot point, BUT apparently the initial decay can occur fairly rapidly with any LED and you may lose up to 10 percent light output in the first 1000 hrs. Something to think about in planning how much you need.

SMD 3528 My thought on the 3528 is it is only good for mood lighting as there isn't a lot of light produced, and available in warm white, cool white or RGB switchable colors
consists of one light-emitting chip
dimension of chip : 35 x 28 mm
power: 0.08W/ pearl

SMD 5050 Brighter and good for mood lighting, but also general lighting in enough quantity, and available in warm white, cool white or RGB switchable colors
consists of three light-emitting chips
dimension of chip : 50 x 50 mm
power: 0.24W/pearl

SMD 5630 Brightest. Could be used for mood lighting too with a dimmer, or in smaller strips. Warm white and cool white. Doesn't seem to be available in RGB...yet. That will probably change
consists of one light-emitting chip
dimension of chip : 56 x 30 mm
power: 0.5W/pearl

Theoretically, SMD5050 is 3 times brighter than SMD3528. One SMD5630 LED is one and a half times more bright than a SMD5050.

Energy useage obviously varies here too.....a 5M strip of 5630 is reported to use 1.2 amps per meter, or 6 amps for the whole strip by some sellers. But I have seen some listed at 8-10 amps for the whole 5M. That's approximately equivalent to 100W energy useage.

Light output on the 5630's I have seen listed at between 960-1320 Lumens per Meter. So my thought is that its going to take between 4-5 ft of this stuff to equal a 100W incandescent bulb in light output.

P.S. - I contacted one seller and asked if the Red/Green/Blue (RGB) lights also make white light. His response is yes. I have an ikea LED that's RGB, and it also makes white light. But it IS the cool white light.

My thought on the cool white lights is....YUCK! They wash out EVERYTHING. I am going to try some over the counters and in the engine rooms though. But I am also going to try them in combination WITH warm white in some areas too. Just to see if combined they are less harsh.