Inverter/Chargers downside?

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Brian. To run the items you mentioned. (Cooktop , microwave , A/C etc.) I'd suggest the 3.6kW Outback. We use a pair of these to supply ALL our A/C needs.

Microwave is about 1.5 kW. Rack induction burner is up to 1.8kW. 800 kBTU air is 600 watts. TVs and computers hardly register.

More importantly is how long between charging you want your battery to last. We have a 1,000 AH/48v Lithium battery (4,000 AH 12v equivalent ).

I cannot recommend Outback highly enough.
 
brian eiland said:
Please excuse my poor electrical knowledge.

If one were

A) buying a used vessel of approx 40-45 feet that had no inverter system (nor sizable battery bank) on board, or

B) building a Pilgrim 40 type vessel I am playing with here
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/redesigning-pilgrim-40-trawler-canal-boat-11212.html

....and wished to make either vessel a more stand-alone vessel (away from dockside power) for considerable times,
what SIZE (power) inverter might be recommended for a 2 person liveaboard situation to include:
1) power for galley with convection/microwave oven, induction cooktop, coffee maker, efficient and good size refrigerator
2) power for computer and TV
3) power for at least one small air con at times

I've seen a number of different references and complaints with different inverter brands, but have no specific knowledge to quote at this time. But it does appear as those these Victron units are a real premium brand??
Click to expand...


Brian, does the induction cooktop operate on 220 volts or 110 volts? If it is 220 volts then the normal inverter will not operate it.

If it is 110 volts then when the cooktop is used powered by the inverter you will have a large electrical draw. The combination of the ac refrigerator and the cooktop will be enough that a 2,800 or 3,000 watt inverter would be advisable.

Marty
 
We have a Magnum MSW 3100W-160A unit and like it a lot. I met an electical engineer on a Shucker 50 that had his boat running off two 300A alts and two of the Magnums. He didn't think there was a better inverter available. The guys at West Marine when I bought it two years ago said they had never seen a Magnum come back yet they had never in recent years sold a Xantrex that didn't come back. We have an all electric boat run off a 1200ah bank of 6volts and twin 108amp alts and a 70amp alt. The inverter is inline after the shore 1,2,genset power selector switch.
 
If you need 240 VAC for the range, then a pair of inverters can be ganged to make the 240 volts. Single induction burners are typically 120 V. A range w/oven or multi-burner cooktop will most likely be 240 V.

I have also heard good things about the Magnum (but never used one).
 
110 vs 220 AC, 12 and 24 DC

I believe I would stick with only one voltage in the AC range,....the most common 110 voltage. I don't imagine a great deal of need for 220v AC on a vessel?

But at the lower DC voltage range would there be any advantages to having a 12 and 24 volt capability these days? Would an inverter have an easier job working from higher 24v supply of DC as apposed to 12v ??

If an alternative 24v supply seemed feasible in some cases, couldn't that easily be provided by the arrangement of the robust 6 volt golf cart battery bank?
 
Charging Battery Bank

Larry M said:
Figure out what your power needs are. You can stack some inverters (Outback is one) to get all the power you need. Regardless of the size of your battery bank and yours is good size, what you take out has to be replaced. So how you charge should be as important as inverting, IMHO.
Click to expand...

I know this is a pretty board subject, but a few basic questions.
1) With wet cell batteries I had always understood that a slow rate of charge was best,....true or not?

2) There are inverter models that are just inverters, and there are those that are both inverters and chargers??
a) What generally are the positives and negatives of each type?
b) It would seem that in the interest of KSS it might be best to have these functions of charging the battery bank, and inverting from it, separated into two different units that could be trouble-shot, and repaired/replaced as individuals??
 
The advantage of higher voltages , both DC & AC, is smaller wires to carry the same current.

Regarding slow charging of wet cells - it's been so long since I've used them , I have no knowledge other than making sure settings on charger are correct for type and size of bank.

The sad vantages of single charger/inverter are:
1. Less equipment - less weight - less space.
2. Built in auto change over from charging to inverting.
3. Single remote screen/control.

Disadvantage: if one function goes down, the other may fail at same time.

If you choose a 24 VDC battery bank , you can use DC/DC converters for you 12V needs. But if your engine alternators and starters are 12v , then you can't charge your house bank from motors. A major concern.
 
rjtrane said:
The advantage of higher voltages , both DC & AC, is smaller wires to carry the same current.
Click to expand...
I may have an electrical challenged brain, but I do know this fact....ha...ha:)

Regarding slow charging of wet cells - it's been so long since I've used them , I have no knowledge other than making sure settings on charger are correct for type and size of bank.
Click to expand...
I thought I remembered something about quick charging driving off more of the fluids. I also realize they can be overcharged.

One fellow I know swears by a solar charger to keep the batteries topped up when leaving the vessel unattended for extended periods.

The advantages of single charger/inverter are:
1. Less equipment - less weight - less space.
2. Built in auto change over from charging to inverting.
3. Single remote screen/control.
Click to expand...
Sometimes these days I am just less impressed with all of this 'automation' being controlled by the integrated circuit boards that seem to have a mind of their own, and/or get 'impregnated' with faulty Chinese electrical components (such as the faulty capacitors they spread thruout the electronics community a few years ago)


Disadvantage: if one function goes down, the other may fail at same time.
Click to expand...
Exactly


If you choose a 24 VDC battery bank , you can use DC/DC converters for you 12V needs. But if your engine alternators and starters are 12v , then you can't charge your house bank from motors. A major concern.
Click to expand...
Good point.
 
Last edited:
I like solar. Of course you need a controller/charger between the PV array and the battery bus.

I set my solar charger to a higher voltage than my shore charger. - this keeps it charging even when plugged in.

My Outback controllers have been working continuously since fa 2008 w/o a hiccup. Genesun makes controllers for the marine environment in smaller sizes. I feel it is better to have the solar voltage about 2x the battery. My array is. 90v nominal charging a 48 v battery.

When choosing a controller make sure it has settings for the battery type you choose.
 
Regarding automatic switching.

One nice thing about current crop of charger/inverters is they switch so fast , the clock on the microwave holds the time. Ditto other electronics plugged in to AC.

My current philosophy completely bypasses ANY switching among AC power sources. (Shore, inverter or generator) making operation seamless to the user.

1. ALL AC power used aboard is from the inverter(s ).
2. Shore power leads ONLY to the battery charger. New chargers can work OK on voltages ranging from 90 VAC to 300 VAC - 50 or. 60 Hz. Do if you're plugged in at the end of the dock with ancient wiring,you're charging OK.
3. Variable speed DC generator.
4. Other charging as desired. - engine alternators, wind, solar, re-generative motor/generator (hybrid )

You always have perfect AC power - 120V - 60 Hz.

No switching ever when leaving shore or starting the generator.

With a sizable battery , you can sit on the hook overnight w/o the genset running a modest amount of air conditioning.
 
Reuben

If you are running your chargers on shore power and at the same time using your inverters have you isolated your ac neutral bus bars as to the two power sources on the boat? The shore power of course has it neutral connected to ground and an inverter while operating connects the ac output neutral to the boat's ground. Thus the possibility of two grounds, unless of course isolated.

How was it done on Sunshine?

Marty
 
Bay Pelican said:
Reuben

If you are running your chargers on shore power and at the same time using your inverters have you isolated your ac neutral bus bars as to the two power sources on the boat? The shore power of course has it neutral connected to ground and an inverter while operating connects the ac output neutral to the boat's ground. Thus the possibility of two grounds, unless of course isolated.

How was it done on Sunshine?

Marty
Click to expand...

My inverter grounds to the DC negative bus bar.
 
Don

Moonstruck's arrangement is normal. But on Sunshine both shore power and the inverter are supplying power (not just pass through) at the same time. Thus two sources of power and possibly two grounds.

Marty
 
Trickle Charge

brian eiland said:
One fellow I know swears by a solar charger to keep the batteries topped up when leaving the vessel unattended for extended periods.
Click to expand...


rjtrane said:
I like solar. Of course you need a controller/charger between the PV array and the battery bus.

I set my solar charger to a higher voltage than my shore charger. - this keeps it charging even when plugged in.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I should have included the word 'trickle charge' as his method of keeping the batteries full doing times away from his vessel. I believe that is the way he described it to me,....not an over size solar charging system, but just a 'trickle' to maintain a fully charged battery(s).
Does this sound correct?,..... and as simple as he made it sound??
 
rjtrane said:
Regarding automatic switching.

One nice thing about current crop of charger/inverters is they switch so fast , the clock on the microwave holds the time. Ditto other electronics plugged in to AC.

My current philosophy completely bypasses ANY switching among AC power sources. (Shore, inverter or generator) making operation seamless to the user.

1. ALL AC power used aboard is from the inverter(s ).
2. Shore power leads ONLY to the battery charger. New chargers can work OK on voltages ranging from 90 VAC to 300 VAC - 50 or. 60 Hz. Do if you're plugged in at the end of the dock with ancient wiring,you're charging OK.
3. Variable speed DC generator.
4. Other charging as desired. - engine alternators, wind, solar, re-generative motor/generator (hybrid )

You always have perfect AC power - 120V - 60 Hz.

No switching ever when leaving shore or starting the generator.

With a sizable battery , you can sit on the hook overnight w/o the genset running a modest amount of air conditioning.
Click to expand...

Sounds like the type of system I would desire.

Question? Are you utilizing a variable DC generator in the place of a more conventional Aux AC Generator Set?
If so, what make and model??
 
rjtrane said:
Regarding automatic switching.

One nice thing about current crop of charger/inverters is they switch so fast , the clock on the microwave holds the time. Ditto other electronics plugged in to AC.


Not exactly my experience.

My reason for initiating this thread was to explore options for replacing my recently deceased Xantrex stand alone inverter. General opinion was the Victron multi charger, or similar, was the way to go. This would give me the added benefit of now having my original charger as a ready to go back up if I ran into problems with the charging side of the new unit, this made sense to me.

I am happy with the new unit, however unlike the old unit, the Victron is very slow in changing from inverter to A/C, takes about 5 seconds after flicking the switch for the inverter to activate A/C.

I have been caught out a few times turning on the A/C eutectic fridges and hot water etc before the unit has switched, and the Victron lets you know in know uncertain terms that you have exceeded its 2000watt capacity.I try to be careful about this as I understand this can be one of the great inverter killers.

Switching from A/C to inverter is pretty much instantaneous.
Click to expand...
 
Marty. I may not have made myself clear. We do not supply ANY shore power to the AC bus. Shore power ONLY goes to the charger.

We ave a pair of 3.6 kW inverters. Each one powers it's own AC panel. We do not mix any AC power.

Brian. We have no stand alone generator on Sunshine. Our Steyr parallel hybrid diesels each has a permanent magnet motor/generator. With the diesel running , it produces up to 5 kW of 48 VDC (each). Under electric drive, each is capable of up to 7 7kW of propulsion drive.

In a serial hybrid system , we would look closely at the Fischer Panda DC generators among others.

Our electrical system would be equally at home on a non-hybrid system.
 
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