Muir Winch Quits

My Muir Cougar 1200w winch quit, no warning signs. It is a typical horizontal type, locally designed and built, good reputation, commonly fitted. Control is by foot switch. Only issue, it always ran consistently slower in the 3 years I had it than a similar one on my last boat.
The circuit breaker is not tripping. I have not yet located an isolator which should be fitted between battery source and circuit breaker, but power reaches the foot switch so that seems a non issue. I tried a new foot switch (existing a Lucas switch, suspect for age and make), no change.
So I`m thinking winch motor, and currently waiting a visit from the marine electrics guy.
Meantime, any thoughts?

I'm spoiled living in a major agricultural area of California, I'd just yank it off and take it to my local pump rebuilder. This local company rebuilds anything with an electric motor or generator to factory new condition and has for 70 years. Perhaps you have a similar industrial electrical shop in your corner of Oz? Perhaps an automotive starter repair shop as those gents know their way around too.

Is it like a starter motor on a car, where you could tap the solenoid to get it going again?
Could it be that?
Obviously I am no expert

Bruce I had a similar problem with my winch, a Lofrans, the sparkies replaced the motor with a second hand Muir job, not very expensive, and all was good.

Thanks guys. It`s a simple set up, power goes to a foot switch, which leads to the winch, which is separately earthed. The Manual mentions a solenoid, but I think it`s only fitted when you have up/down power controls. I forgot to say when I tested for power on the 2 terminals of the switch I could light up an LED spot bulb,(all I had to use to test),which meant I had an earth. This switch when closed just sends power to the separately earthed winch, so that`s odd. That`s why I suspect the winch motor is deranged.

I have a Muir Cougar the toe switches on mine energize a relay that powers the motor to raise or lower. The relays were added later because to toe switches would arc & burn the contacts, that caused resistance & low voltage till it finally quit. Cleaning the contacts would fix it for a while & that's why relays were added to carry the heavy electrical loads. Good Luck

I think its a relay. Just bridge the (big,fat) terminals across the relay with a jumper (I don't know your relay setup but a screwdriver [boat prybar] worked on mine). The motor should run. If it doesn't, tear the motor off and take it apart and clean it inside thoroughly with contact cleaner, rough up the commutator with fine sandpaper, clean all the copper dust off, grease the bearings and reassemble. You can tell if it needs new brushes, put some in if it does...You might even paint the case if you want to go crazy. If the motor DOES run, buy a new solenoid.

You did check the fuse/breaker, right? The motor should have its own.

There, just saved you $200.

Greetings,
Mr. BK. "existing a Lucas switch"... Well, there's your problem right there mate!

You've lost the smoke.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. BK. "existing a Lucas switch"... Well, there's your problem right there mate!

You've lost the smoke.

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Obvious experience with early model British automobiles. Lucas, "prince of darkness".

Moonstruck said:

Obvious experience with early model British automobiles. Lucas, "prince of darkness".

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Sorry for the thread creep, but it gets even worse, Lucas actually manufactured a pacemaker . . . .

Can you imagine going through life with a LUCAS PACEMAKER??

Sorry, I couldn't resist​

BruceK said:

Thanks guys. It`s a simple set up, power goes to a foot switch, which leads to the winch, which is separately earthed. The Manual mentions a solenoid, but I think it`s only fitted when you have up/down power controls. I forgot to say when I tested for power on the 2 terminals of the switch I could light up an LED spot bulb,(all I had to use to test),which meant I had an earth. This switch when closed just sends power to the separately earthed winch, so that`s odd. That`s why I suspect the winch motor is deranged.

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Bruce, this happened to my winch (a Nilssons), when it had gone unused longer than usual while I was overseas 2 yrs ago. Having not missed a beat ever in the 10 yrs I had then owned it, so I was shocked. I took it off and into the electrical guy and all it needed was new brushes and a general clean-up, and now going good as new again, so don't lose heart. It is almost certainly repairable, and might not cost that much even.
PS. Do yourself that favour and add in that chain counter we talked about while you are at it. See 'marking chain' thread to remind yourself.

I completely understand the Lucas issue, but a new Muir switch I bought (cause I blamed the switch) made no difference. I`ll get on the boat tomorrow, I need to get the back off the switch panel to see what other bits are there (?relay, solenoid), while I`ve got someone to press the foot switch.
I did not check the breaker switch itself, but there is power at the foot switch, which is downstream. I called Muir for service guys, they suggested low voltage causes slow running, I have plenty of battery and idle engines at 1000rpm during retrieve, so it`s more likely an issue of getting power there, or the winch motor, as several have suggested.
I think it will help if I get an electrics guy onboard, I`ll look at it again armed with the welcome input, but there are a lot of potential causes.

I got a boat electrician in to resolve all possible causes, everything tested ok (even the Lucas switch!) except the winch itself. We took it off, without dismantling it looked all its 32 years. The elec guy said take it Muir, who have a Sydney workshop, I did, now waiting on a quote. A new 1200w "Cheetah", which I have, is 4K, a 1000w Cougar $2800, leaving plenty of scope for repair. It is seriously heavy, the case is alloy, that leaves the motor and gearbox,the less I carry it the better for my back.

The verdict: new motor, $1100 plus 10% GST(tax); plus $125-150(plus GST) if the cover needs grinding down slightly to take the new slightly larger motor. I said yes.

BruceK said:

The verdict: new motor, $1100 plus 10% GST(tax); plus $125-150(plus GST) if the cover needs grinding down slightly to take the new slightly larger motor. I said yes.

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I can get new QUICK DP2 1000W winches for $1000.00 with remote switches and manufacturers warrantee in 12V or 24V. I Have a friend that owns a marine wholesale company. PM me if you're interested.

I bought one for AXE and am stoked with the quality an the savings. Got it for less than half price.

BruceK said:

The verdict: new motor, $1100 plus 10% GST(tax); plus $125-150(plus GST) if the cover needs grinding down slightly to take the new slightly larger motor. I said yes.

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No chance that a re builder can repair the existing motor??? we have a local that is a ex Brit that runs a proper electric motor rebuild shop... full of the prerequisite old massively over sized machinery.. he even rebuilt my old windless off Volunteer that had been made from the bomb bay door motor from a B-24 Liberator ( circa 1942 )

$ 1100 sounds like a lot for just the motor.. but then again I am used to US prices

Good Luck,
HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 said:

No chance that a re builder can repair the existing motor??? ... sounds like a lot for just the motor.. but then again I am used to US pricesHOLLYWOOD

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Thanks Hollywood, They say not repairable, Muir have an ok reputation, at least I get a brand new one, hopefully pulling the claimed 48ft per minute. Seems a lot, a new one is 4K...oh well, it`s a boat.

Hendo78 said:

I can get new QUICK DP2 1000W winches for $1000.00 with remote switches and manufacturers warrantee in 12V or 24V. I Have a friend that owns a marine wholesale company. PM me if you're interested.

I bought one for AXE and am stoked with the quality an the savings. Got it for less than half price.

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Sounds a great deal. Mine is horizontal, not vertical, changes are possible but I just have to bolt this one back on. The other major parts are the gearbox, spindle and gypsy, they are ok, a new motor should be good, but you`re right, a lot of $. Hope your "Quick" deal helps someone in Oz.
Glad to hear the weather has improved so you can progress. All the best.

hollywood8118 said:

$ 1100 sounds like a lot for just the motor.. but then again I am used to US prices

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I had a quote on a muir 3500 rewound from 24v to 12v not that long ago and it was about $350

I also see that a brand new Maxwell motor, admittedly a smaller size is only $185 from the Brisbane rep.
Anchor Winch Motor Suits Maxwell Freedom 500M 12 Volt | eBay

Are maxwell/muir motors interchangeable? Might be worth giving Craig a call.

BruceK said:

Mine is horizontal, not vertical

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Hmmm sounds like another mammoth "single V twin" thread in the making there! Horizontal V Vertical lol

Bruce seems expensive to me also. As I posted in a previous thread , We got a reconditioned Muir motor for our Lofran winch for $245.00. About 5 years ago though.

Muir on the Cougar used two different motors, one had power down & the other you had to unlock the ratchet dog back off the clutch & let it free fall. Mine is the power down type & a good starter repair shop can rebuild it for around $100.00, that was in 2010. Bearings, brushes & clean up the armature, if I remember right it was a Fiat part.

The winch came back, the terminal cable bolts of the only possible new motor protruding a full inch below the screw on base-plate. Muir: "gee, we didn`t notice that". Unable to cut into the platform the winch sits on (post right underneath), so made a 1 &1/4" thick wood spacer fitting the winch case footprint, thus both allowing for terminals and providing a vital replacement base-plate, and channeled it to take cables, connected exactly as Muir advised, for up only operation.
Got it all nicely fitted, tried it, operating down not up! Thanks again Muir! Pulled the whole thing off, half set Sika under the timber plate and on top of it, Sika mess everywhere (boat, us, clothes, tools), refitted the cables, modified the cable channels, and refitted it. The Sika which should look nice and smooth, looks anything but, probably fixable.
The good part: fixed and fitted before Xmas, fast as a fast thing on retrieve, the existing winch mounting bolts also secure the wood spacer so no extra cut holes in boat.

Sounds like a fun day Bruce. I hate cleaning up after a battle with Sikaflex, especially black Sika.

Still you are up and running in time for Christmas.

Bruce, this possibly not a great time to raise this, but my winch used to be up only, but it was not that hard for a marine sparky to make a mod that allowed power up and down...and I love it. I can do the whole anchoring thing from the helm, up or down, and the down is really good when driving into an anchorage from the flybridge where you do get a good view all round in terms of relationship to other boats, and the depth changes are often visible as well.
'course it would have to come off again to do it...sorry...

Peter B said:

Bruce, this possibly not a great time to raise this, but my winch used to be up only, but it was not that hard for a marine sparky to make a mod that allowed power up and down....
'course it would have to come off again to do it...sorry...

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AAAGGGHHH!!
Today, to accommodate the extra 30mm pad and washers, we fitted 2 longer 316 bolts ( price pre negotiation at Mr.Stainless $30.80 ea) plus a longer coach screw to one corner, screwed into wet bog filler in a screwhole which was holding nothing. I know I should have epoxied it, or plugged and drilled it but the winch has had enough of my Xmas. It`s not coming off foreseeably; if/when it may not be another Muir Cheetah. But it does run fast!

BruceK said:

Pulled the whole thing off, half set Sika under the timber plate and on top of it, Sika mess everywhere (boat, us, clothes, tools), refitted the cables, modified the cable channels, and refitted it.

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You couldn't have just swapped the cables around someplace inside the boat?

RickB said:

You couldn't have just swapped the cables around someplace inside the boat?

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Rick, I appreciate the thought, I`m no electrician, maybe it`s possible, the motor has 3 terminals-up/down/negative, we swapped the power ones. It`s a basic set up, gravity freefall, powered retrieve via the bow footswitch.

Something odd. We briefly ran the winch, just to tighten the chain after reinstalling the anchor on the bow, it was fine. Went out overnight, scored a mooring in Sugarloaf so removed the anchor to give a straight run for the mooring line. Departing, we refitted the anchor, confidently pressed the foot switch, nothing. It had rained heavily overnight, but I think we had the winch well sealed, no sign of water entry.
Today we checked for power at all points from footswitch to winch. We get 13.5v all the way to the 2 cable ends which bolt to the the winch terminals. But bolt them on and test, we get no power reading at all. Monday I`ll take it back to Muir. Although the old motor was reported a total write off, two possible successive motor failures, is there something I`m missing?

Unlikely Bruce, but hey - here's your chance while/if it's off again to get that mod done so you have power down as well. If possible I'd also have a switch installed at both helms. Standing there in the dark and wet using a foot switch is just not de rigeur any more. You would NEVER regret having the helm up down option, even if you still like to stand next to it and operate a food switch from time to time in nice conditions. I guarantee you you hardly ever would mind you, because then anchoring is a one person thing, and you can then gently throttle back to lay the chain out and dig it in a bit to set it…not that your Sarca needs much setting…and without needing someone else at the helm…or you running to and fro…
Sorry, but if it does have to come off again - or it you ever get a new one, these points are worth considering.