Oil weight for older diesels?

Oil selection for Lehmans

Having owned two boats(GB 42 & Alaskan 46) with Lehmans, & sailed great lakes & east coast, I used single viscosity oil exclusively. Seem to remember conversation with Bob Smith's company and many others regarding oil, and the firm opinion of selection (as I remember) is that multi viscosity oil is not recommended since the oil is continually passed thru the oil cooler which is dropping oil temp to raw water temp. As this is counter to the multi viscosity oil formulation single viscosity oil is recommended. So there is my recollection, anyone else have comments?

skipper2 said:

Having owned two boats(GB 42 & Alaskan 46) with Lehmans, & sailed great lakes & east coast, I used single viscosity oil exclusively. Seem to remember conversation with Bob Smith's company and many others regarding oil, and the firm opinion of selection (as I remember) is that multi viscosity oil is not recommended since the oil is continually passed thru the oil cooler which is dropping oil temp to raw water temp. As this is counter to the multi viscosity oil formulation single viscosity oil is recommended. So there is my recollection, anyone else have comments?

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because multis are usually better suited for temp ranges below the normal operating temps...wouldn't an oil cooler encourage rather than discourage their use?

Not sure an oil cooler changes the temps that much though to worry about....plenty of Lehman owners have been running 15W40 for many years and no one has mentioned a problem with theirs or heard any other issues.

[FONT=Arial+0]Metals look great. Universal averages show that this is a nicely wearing engine across the board. Those averages are based on about[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial+0]180 hours on the oil, and with all metals reading in the single-digits. No contamination was found in the oil, and even insolubles (oxidized solids caused by heat, use, and blow-by) read nice and low. This oil can see more use. Probably 30-50 hours or so.[/FONT]​

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SYNTHETIC

There is an article in Power and Motoryacht and he walks the line of no commitment.

SO .......

The illegitimate child has finally become legitimate.

So three cheers for syn.

So why use it? Many good reasons but none of them pertain to NA trawler engines. But high heat turbines practically demand it. So if I had a turbocharged engine I'd almost certainly use syn and it would probably be specified by the engine manufacturer.

It all goes back to the one advantage that sticks out the most and that is cold/heat stability. When you need it you need it. Like in a racing engine or any other engine that gets hot enough to put dino oil to the outer limits of it's usefulness. And that certainly isn't a NA trawler engine that gets warmed up slowly and dosn't get cooled down abruptly.

Durio I enjoyed the history lesson and remember the seal problem. Actually it's still a problem as far as I know in that an additive must be put in syn oils to keep the seals from shrinking. To make them swell basically. But I understand all syn oils have the additive and I wonder at times if going back and forth from syn to dino that the seals might get confused as to whether they should shrink or expand. It's a grey area for engines that have had syn in them but I suspect it's not a problem as I've read or heard nothing about it.
So cold weather performance was the reason for the development of both syn and multi-vis oils. Heat more-so now w many engines having turbos.
But don't need either for NA trawler engines. With syn you're actually better off with it than without it but have no need at all and your engine will last just as long w/o it .... mostly due to the fact that almost all our trawler engines will die from abuse and neglect ... not lack of lubrication. But w MV oils your'e better off w/o them but only to a very small degree. There is more oil in straight weight oil and less additives. But only a very slight amount so it would be hard to make a case for not using MV based on the amount of oil in the can. But I'd say more oil is better .. all other things being equal. Another thing is that the viscosity improvers (VI) wer'nt 100% perfect. In fact in the early days of MV oils one would buy a can of 10-30W and find that after 1000 miles it was broken down to just 10 weight oil. 10-30 oil is actually 10 weight oil and 5-30 is 5 weight oil. The VIs prevent the base oil from thinning out as much as they normally do. So when/if the VIs fail or are less effective than they were when the MV oil was put in the engine 5-30 oil becomes 5 weight oil and 20-50 becomes 20 weight oil. All oil thins as it becomes hotter including syn but MV and syn thin less that straight weight oil. But it's viscosity will remain the same over time. This tendency for the VIs in MV oil to break down may be solved 100% ... or 90% ... or 75% ?? I don't know.
So actually I feel better off w 30 weight oil. My engine never fails to crank smartly and I know if I maintain my engine reasonably well it will outlast my boating needs by a VERY wide margin.

manyboats said:

SO .......

So why use it? Many good reasons but none of them pertain to NA trawler engines. But high heat turbines practically demand it. So if I had a turbocharged engine I'd almost certainly use syn and it would probably be specified by the engine manufacturer.
.

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Neither Cat, JD nor Cummins require synthetics for their current turbo charged engines. Remembering as you and I do Eric that turbo marine diesels date well back into the last century.

Holy cow!

That's a lot of information and I am now very confused yet knowledgable about synthetics, but I'm a cheap bastard so it probably a moot point.
I emailed bob asking his advice and am awaiting a definitive answer.
damn i forgot to ask if he really does recommend marvelous mystery oil...
I changed out the existing black goo with 15/40 but after slapping wolverine pan heaters on I think I'll swap it once more for 40 weight since will never be cold starting in future (thanks for that advice btw). Hopefully that helps.

Robert Durio said:

I am curious, and have really have no idea, but how does one lubricate the upper cylinder, without lubricating the entire engine?.

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There used to be a so called "upper cylinder lubricant(UCL)" sold here at gas stations,it was added to the fuel tank.
I don`t know the wisdom of putting synthetic oil in fuel, or UCL either. Or how to lube different parts of conventional engines with different oils.
I`m about to buy about 30L of engine oil(quart and litre/liter are similar), for the Lehman Bros and the Onan. Price difference between conventional and semi synthetic is about 5% extra. Non synthetic oils are described in the product range as "mineral".Tempted to go the extra 5%.

I think the original question was based on lehman 275 turbos that smoke a bit. This digression to synthetics will not help the OP.

The reality is that the type of base stock (PAO or mineral) has little to do with the appropriateness of the oil for your engines. (Although I do prefer an oil with a good Viscosity Index, typical of PAO oils.) I would argue that most of the wear that they will encounter is due to the contamination present in the oil, and not the lack of lubricity due to type of oil.

Good quality diesel engine oil has both a high TBN number (think alkaline) and contains a balanced mixture of additives to minimize the effect of oil deterioration. Acidification, oxidation, thermal degradation, contamination, preferential adsorption of ZDDP by soot, and sludge formation due to dispersed water in the crankcase are likely the biggest foes that the additive pack has to defeat.

Initially, the degradation rate is slow due to the protective action of the additives; however, the rate dramatically increases as soon as the additive package is depleted.

So what’s a guy to do? Easy. Buy a quality oil of the appropriate viscosity and change it often. Many manufactures create their own qualifications for oil beyond the API criteria. I would guess this has to due with the additive packs relating to the known metallurgy of their engines. I ensure my oil meets the Volvo Penta specs, VDS-3.

PS: Changing to a higher viscosity oil often time leads to more heat needing to be dissipated, rather than less. This is due to the energy required due to the higher shear strength of the oil with the same mechanical clearances. If your engines are houred-up and broken in, this may not be a consideration.

PPS: Your manual calls for a multi-visc oil of 20W/20 for 20F to 90F ambient temperatures. It also recommends pre-lubing the turbo by cranking the engine with the stop engaged for 15 seconds if the engine has sat for more than 4 weeks.

When working for a former company, we did considerable research on many lubricants for use on our fleet of hundreds of Cat 3516's. Oil condition was monitored every 100 hrs for all oil types. Our best standard mineral oil gave us an average of 900-1000 hrs between changes. The best synthetic oil gave us 1000-1100 hrs, a 10% increase.
Our most common reason for end of oil life was the the oil acidifying. TAN increasing and TBN decreasing. This occurred suddenly but predictably at the end of the oil life.
In the end, we decided the 25% extra cost of the synthetic was not worth the 10% increase in oil change interval.
Is it better? Most likely, although our studies in how it affected engine wear was inconclusive due to so many other variables coming into play. it is difficult, even with a fleet the size of this, to get good factual evidence. The average user can only guess.

>It does smell better! I use synthetic in my hot rods, modern and ancient<

If smell is the basic criteria , nothing smells better than Castrol R , which is castor oil.

Durio,
I put about 50-1 high viscosity 2 stroke racing oil in my red plastic gas cans for various applications but mostly to use in my lawnmowers. They are all 4 stroke of course. It was strictly for cylinder lubrication. I did that on a riding 12hp mower at my old house in Arlington for 8 years. At 7 years out I needed to change the spark plug but that's it. Changed the oil regularly w Castrol 20-50 and broke it in w/o the Bel-Ray syn upper cyl lube. After 8 years the engine still ran perfect. I also warmed it up at an idle for about 3 minutes and gave it a bit of cool down time. I avoided running out of gas because of the quick shut down.

Very very excellent post Northern Spy.
Especially the part about acidification ect ect and the breakdown of the additives. Worn out oil should be changed but oil lasting longer in cars is probably mostly due to having fuel injection and not having carburetors. But isn't oil breakdown in diesels mostly due to the very high accumulation of carbon? And isn't carbon an abrasive?

And of course syn oil probably dosn't break down as quickly mechanically in some ways but I don't see how it would not become contaminated just like dino oil.

AusCan yes it seems to always come back to the lack of cost effectiveness.

Bruce K,
Syn only 5% more expensive? Are you talking about a 10% blend? If I could get Mobile 1 for 5% more than Delo I'd use it.

I started this thread on BD.net about hot running engines and it morphed into a very good discussion on lube oils. Thought some would be interested. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/powerboats/increase-engine-heat-better-efficiency-48951-2.html

Eric
your link, when clicked, produces a double http://
it took a couple tries before I realized.
For anyone else trying this link once in the browser go back and delete on set of the http:// and then go and it will work.
OR

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/powerboats/increase-engine-heat-better-efficiency-48951-2.html

C lectric you area fast man. Better than a fast woman?

I was correcting it while you were correcting. The post is fixed. Sure is nice to have someone like you around when I drop the ball.

Please go read the interesting thread and make interesting comment.

Interesting .... since I posted about oil an AMSOIL thing appeared up on top.
The adds must be linked to the word oil.

I'm doing that right now, the reading.

I asked my sister-in-law about this debate. She's an engineer on the Kasakhstan oil fields with a large multinational and previously on some off-shore projects in Angola and Nigeria. She asked her fellow engineer colleagues and they universally agreed: follow the manufacturers recommendations on what oil to use.

Jim, Sent from my iPad using Trawler

JDCAVE said:

I asked my sister-in-law about this debate. She's an engineer on the Kasakhstan oil fields with a large multinational and previously on some off-shore projects in Angola and Nigeria. She asked her fellow engineer colleagues and they universally agreed: follow the manufacturers recommendations on what oil to use.

Jim, Sent from my iPad using Trawler

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Even if the the manual is 50 years old and the manufacturer has been out of business almost that long?

I doubt they had the whole story....

She had the whole story. Lemme see now...on the one hand Bob Smith with all his experience with FL, along with chemical and mechanical engineers with an oil company and on other hand....

Ford Lehman 135's aren't 50 years old. Jim, Sent from my iPad using Trawler

JDCAVE said:

She had the whole story. Lemme see now...on the one hand Bob Smith with all his experience with FL, along with chemical and mechanical engineers with an oil company and on other hand.... Ford Lehman 135's aren't 50 years old.

Jim, Sent from my iPad using Trawler

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My manual is over 50 years since it's publishing date (July 1963) and the design is therefore just as old...so what is the current manufacturer's recommendation???? OOOOps..there is none....even if you think 135 vs 120...not much difference and the recommendation is still the same...prehistoric.

Bob of American Diesel.... while he is what he is.... isn't an oil expert...he recommends what he knows but times have changed.... otherwise I'd probably be using sperm whale oil in mine....

My buddy work for oil companies and all he uses is Mobil one...go figure....

The 1986 edition of the Lehman operators manual gives an oil viscosity table.
All the recommendations are single weight based on "average" temperature ranges. (I am not able to post the chart)
That said I am using 15-40. That is what my PO had been using and after a one on one discussion with Bob Smith at a rendezvous he agreed that it would be fine to continue with that rather than change.

My PO used car oil. He never used a dedicated diesel oil. He was an oil man too. Worked in the oil industry. Does that make him right?

I use Delvac 1, Mobil's Mobil 1 for diesels. I have used Mobil 1 since 1977. I use it in everything.

My 1983 GMC Jimmy has 681,052 miles on it. Any Questions? It's a 6.2L diesel. Yes, the same engine in the HumVees of Desert Storm Fame.

1st of all I don't give a rat about Desert Storm or Humvees.

Qustiions ? Sure.

What maintenance have you done? Heads or pan been off? Can you see your neighbors after you start it up? Sorry I couldn't resist. Do you use M1 in your transmissions? I did on my previous boat.

I guess you're saying if we used M1 oil our engines would last longer. I have an 87 Nissan Stanza w 275,000 miles on it and I think it needs a tune up probably not related to the oil. The PO used 5-30 and 10-30 Castrol oil all it's life and changed it every 3000 mi. Seems to have gotten it that far gracefully. No serious engine maintenance done. Starts instantly.

In my opinion there is no doubt syn oil is better but there is serious doubt that it makes our engines last longer. If I thought so I'd put syn in the Nissan right away. And it would be Mobile 1.

How often did you change your oil in the Jimmy?

The mention of HumVees is because some of us will think my 6.2L is a converted gasoline block like the Olds, which it isn't. It was designed ground up by Detroit Diesel. So save your rat's.

I bought it used in 1994 when I was GSM at a GMC dealership. It was a trade in. I changed over to Mobil 1 after trying dello and rotella and not liking them.

I change oil when ever I think about it. I never have a mileage restriction on Delvac 1. I changed it twice this year and the filter maybe three times. I believe it's more important to change filters than oil.

It doesn't smoke. Doesn't burn oil excessively. I might burn a quart every 2k which I think is normal.

The most replaced thing on my diesel is the IP. Since CA removed sulphur from it's diesel my IP's have not lived long at all.

Which is a subject all in it's self. I tried every additive available and logged everything using them. MPG as well. I found the claims they make are pure bunko. The worse was Lucas which not only didn't save the IP but dropped my MPG by 4.

Stanadyne sells the magical cure all and it did nothing. No MPG change or added IP life.

I bought three IP's, had them rebuilt and ready. I even bought a USG Arctic pump that is made of high strength steel and can run JP2 or 4 and it did last better than the other ones.

Now I don't use any additive. I'm done with them. They don't work as claimed and I'm saving money.

My PO used car oil. He never used a dedicated diesel oil. He was an oil man too. Worked in the oil industry. Does that make him right?

PROBABLY,

all engine lube oil will have the specifications right on the can.

Most older engines are quite happy with the oil that was common when they were built.

IF Da Book requires one level of detergent , and auto oil has that listing on its can , its just fine.

A very modern engine required by the air police to eat its own exhaust will require a newer diesel lube oil , to help the engine life , but higher detergent does nothing to the old farm implement engines built for then available oils.

READ DA BOOK, Read the oil can!!!

Oil is OIL , just the additive package is different.

Submarine deckhand said:

Thanks for all the info .

So I got and applied all the advice I could...
Changed oil with 15/40 rotella at 12.5(recommended but scary way below min)
Cleaned air filters
Cleaned intercoolers
Ran out almost all old fuel and put in fresh ( ran her hard for 6 hrs)
Injector service
Wolverine pan heaters

Tried to take last advice and calm the heck down
She still smokes like a bitch
So if compression was ok at survey, what's left?
Valve guide seals?
Rings?

Are there any cheap things I missed before I start spending a lot?

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At some point it's best to turn things over to a pro. Someone who has been to factory training and has the knowledge and experience to diagnose your problem and fix it.

Many people call themselves mechanics but simply replace parts until the problem goes away, charging you for the parts and labor. A real mechanic will do some testing and then go right to the source of the problem and replace only what's necessary.

manyboats said:

.................... how can syn oil be "superior" if dino oil is "good enough"? ...............

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I think that's a point missed by a lot of people and not just when talking about oil.

BruceK said:

For the moment, take cost out of the discussion. If conventional/dino, semi synthetic, and synthetic all cost the same, what would you use?

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With over 3K hours on the engine, I think I would keep using what I am using. Shell Rotella T

What color is the smoke? Does it ever change, like get less after warmup? Does it idle smooth or is there a slight shake?

I can't believe we can't figure this out. If you can take a picture of the smoke, post it.

Were running Chevron Super Plus 15w-40, we only use it because we get it for basically free. Chevrons done us fine so far. We change oil every year.