Gun Question

This is a gun question on what to buy. Please don't get into gun rights and other political issues or this thread will get killed.

I'm targeting this question to those that already keep guns aboard. I used to keep a handgun with me on camping and boating trips but haven't in a very long time.
This particular weapon would be for self defense only. What I think I need is:
1) Something with as little swinging room needed as possible. The old Kentucky Long Rifle would not work for me on a boat.
2) Easy and non-intimidation for a female to operate - I'm speaking of my wife, not my feminine side.
3) 'Relatively' inexpensive ammo. The more a weapon is used the better it becomes. I'm of 'the most familiar weapon is the best weapon' school. I've known people that could carve you up with a knife well before you even realized you had to defend yourself.
4) Something that would not draw any attention on the boat. Like in, easily stored and easily available.

I know there is no one weapon that will fit all of the categories like a fully automatic shotgun the size of my walley - which is really small. I'm sure I will think of more stuff. If nothing else, tell me what you have on your boat and why you selected that weapon.

One more very important thing: I will only be cruising in the US so foreign laws will not apply. My cruising will be primarily on the eastern inland waterways.

Again, please keep this non-political. Hopefully, the moderators will bounce the offenders and not the thread.

Thanks in advance.

I keep a Walther PPK .380 cal in stainless on board. Small enough for the wife and large enough to do the job.

If it's going to be on the boat a lot, then my first choice is something stainless. Blued steel will show rust spots really quick in a saltwater environment. Shotgun is good or a pistol whichever you are most comfortable with.

My personal choice is a short pump shotgun. There is nothing like the sound of a round being jacked into the chamber!!

Rifle or Handgun?


I would go with an AR-15. Collapse stock great round that won't penetrate like a .45 or 9mm will and light weight. Put an optic on it and you WILL hit your target. I would add a Surefire taclite.

This is my setup.

I don't yet have a weapon on the boat, but have given this considerable thought. My weapon of choice would be a Mossberg 500 JIC 12 ga shotgun with a pistol grip in MarineCote. The JIC kit (Just In Case) includes a sturdy watertight tube and a multitool.


Mossberg ''Just In Case'' Shotgun Package, Marinecoat, Orange Tube - Impact Guns

I want something easily accessible, easy to operate, reliable and effective. This weapon seems to meet those needs.

A Smith & Wesson SS Model 60 revolver with 3-inch barrel in 357 magnum loaded with five 38+P hollow-point cartridges. (well-built, reliable, small frame, handy, stainless, moderate power, ammo widely available, accurate, reasonable distance between front and rear sights; my home-defense)

Product: Model 60

Al is on the right track, IMO. However, a pistol grip makes for a very uncomfortable shot. Also, keep in mind that shotguns with a self-defense load will have to be aimed and not just pointed in the general direction of your target. So I would opt for a full-stock shotgun with a standard iron sight. A Remington 870 with an 18-inch barrel (SS "marinized" tactical model with six round mag) would work well. Number four buckshot is ideal, IMO.

I wouldn't go with a shotgun because of the damage I would do to my boat. Also I want something that can I can use CQB and if required... A little more distance. My boat only goes 10kts max. If I have to move my engagement zone a little farther out I want to. You never know what or where the fight will find you.

I keep a 40 calibre handgun on board with special ammo that won't carry outside my target. I would prefer to carry my 45 Kimber 1911 but we will see there are several reasons why I don't - as a former cop who worked K9 SWAT be aware of your legal rights while carrying and make sure you declare when asked by USCG etc

I prefer a handgun due to its ability in tight spaces the person who said an AR15 probably has not had to wrestle with it against a bad guy in tight spaces. A shotgun in a house works well but not on a boat we are living on our 49 and space is always a precious commodity.

The only time I needed a gun was when we had a robber on our boat in the Carribean a few years ago at 2am. Other means were used to get him off and he went to another boat until chased off by others.

Some states are more friendly than others as most know just beware of the rules so you don't end up on the wrong side of the jail bars.

Sorry, this is another long one...

Since your are staying in U.S. Waters, it does make the equation easier.
Not knowing you or your wife's background with weapons, I'll respond as though there were none.

Edelweiss said:

If it's going to be on the boat a lot, then my first choice is something stainless. Blued steel will show rust spots really quick in a saltwater environment. Shotgun is good or a pistol whichever you are most comfortable with.

My personal choice is a short pump shotgun. There is nothing like the sound of a round being jacked into the chamber!!

Click to expand...

I agree with stainless, and the sound of a racked round, will get dang near anyone's attention poste haste!!
I also agree with the "whichever you are most comfortable with" comment.

As for the stainless, not only will it hold up better with less maintenance, but if done right, presents a very formidable presence

FlyWright said:

I don't yet have a weapon on the boat, but have given this considerable thought. My weapon of choice would be a Mossberg 500 JIC 12 ga shotgun with a pistol grip in MarineCote. The JIC kit (Just In Case) includes a sturdy watertight tube and a multitool.

Mossberg ''Just In Case'' Shotgun Package, Marinecoat, Orange Tube - Impact Guns

I want something easily accessible, easy to operate, reliable and effective. This weapon seems to meet those needs.

Click to expand...

The nice thing about a shotgun, is that it offers itself to other uses as well, and the ammunition can be varied easily.

The only issue I have with a pistol grip shotgun, is that "some" people simple can't handle them. I've trained volumes and inevitably, we'd have someone, male or female, that simply didn't have the wrist strength or forearm control to keep the weapon on target after the first round was fired. But again, if you find it fits the bill for you and your wife, then by all mean, a very god weapon for on board defense. Carried one in my patrol car for years, and on various LE boats (mostly full stock versions of the same Mossberg LE weapon) and loved it. Very reliable and simple to maintain.

Another thought is this:
Ruger K-Mini14GBF
Ruger® Mini-14® Autoloading Rifles
I've carried this weapon for years and really like it.
Light weight, compact when folded, and uses standard .223 ammo.
You "could" change the barrel out or use an adapter to fire less expensive .22 cal. ammo as well.

Good:
Light weight
Compact
Stainless
Sling
Flash Suppressor*
Bayonet Lug rolleyes*
Folding stock*

Bad:
Folding Stock*-The stock when extended, fails to provide a solid feel for the shooter. I guess "wobbly" is the best way to describe it.
I replaced mine with a Choate Pistol Grip Stock many years ago. Mine is the 07-01-12 pictured below.
Mini-14 Stocks

While designed as a full length stock, in case you decide you need to "reach out and touch someone", it's easily and neatly tucked in next to the body when utilizing the pistol grip.
Also, while a polymer, it takes the OEM wood out of the equation. May increase the life or reduce maintenance a bit, who knows?

They also offer this one:
Choate Pistol Grip Folding Rifle Stock Ruger Mini-14 Mini-30 Synthetic
and while I've never used it, it's still an option.
It "appears" that it may have the same deficiencies that my OEM Ruger folder had, but again, I've never tried it. May have to do that.

Here is the Choate official website:
Welcome to Choate Machine and Tool - Your Premier Source for Tactical Stocks and Accessories for Rifles, Shotguns and Submachine Guns

Flash Suppressor*- Could be better that's all.
Bayonet lug*-Worthless for all intents and purposes. If I want to stick someone, I'll use something else.
Always seemed to find a way to get hung up on something!

The bigger question is comfort and space. If the weapon is uncomfortable to shoot or carry...you (or she) won't. If it's too large to easily work around bulkheads or carry up/down ladders, then again, it's no good.

It all depends on how much both of you are willing to train?
You can become very competent with almost anything with enough training. And while anyone can punch holes in paper, PLEASE, PLEASE, try to find someone, somewhere, that can offer you some tactical training.
Cover, concealment, light/sound abatement, movement, etc.
Defending your boat is much the same as defending your home, except the floors move....
Sorry, I get pretty intense on this part of the subject....

As for a handgun, I'd consider the largest caliber you can both accurately and comfortably handle while firing multiple rounds for several minutes.
If it's not uncomfortable or intimidating for that time, then a couple of quick rounds isn't going to be a problem.

I would stick with a brand name, performance tested in the marine environment, semi-auto, such as the Sig Sauer, S&W, Glock, and a few others.
While the revolvers are "simple", modern semi-autos, with proper training, ammunition and maintenance, seldom jam, misfire, or experience other failures, and are extremely reliable. Again, most failures tend to be the result of:
1) Poor weapon handling
2) Poor ammunition.

Finally, I would consider using a frangible round that is going to expend all or most of it's energy on impact:

A sequence of photos showing a frangible bullet fracturing when subjected to high velocity strain waves

A frangible bullet is one that is designed to disintegrate into tiny particles upon impact to minimize their penetration for reasons of range safety, to limit environmental impact, or to limit the danger behind the intended target. Examples are the Glaser Safety Slug and the breaching round.
Frangible bullets will disintegrate upon contact with a surface harder than the bullet itself. Frangible bullets are often used by shooters engaging in close quarter combat training to avoid ricochets; targets are placed on steel backing plates that serve to completely fragment the bullet. Frangible bullets are typically made of non-toxic metals, and are frequently used on "green" ranges and outdoor ranges where lead abatement is a concern.[2][3]

Click to expand...

Frangibility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Depending on the construction of your vessel, an errant round could pass through a bulkhead, hatchway door or window, endangering a family member or other person on board, or damaging vital gear. And that's if ALL the shooting is done on board in enclosed quarters.
On deck in the open is a whole other ball of wax.

Hope some of this is of some assistance to you in your search.

(THE PICS ARE BELOW- Guess I'm a bit Tech-Tarded when it comes to putting the pics where I want them!!)
Top- Mini14 Folded- OEM stock
Center- Mini14 Extended OEM Stock
Bottom- Choate Full length polymer stock (mine).


OD

markpierce said:

A Smith & Wesson SS Model 60 revolver with 3-inch barrel in 357 magnum loaded with five 38+P hollow-point cartridges. (well-built, reliable, small frame, handy, stainless, moderate power, ammo widely available, accurate, reasonable distance between front and rear sights; my home-defense)

Product: Model 60

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Agreed, Mark! A stainless steel S&W model 66 revolver is my primary home defense weapon. We take it onboard for overnighters. I use .38 +P rounds in lieu of .357 since my wife could be using it as well.

If I owned a larger vessel with more room, I'd carry a Mossberg 12 gauge Mariner.

A Stainless S&W 686 4" with .38 spl. HP rounds.

OD has it right with round. 5.56 or .223 is the preferred round because of frangibility.

The shot gun "rack" is a fallacy. Guys intent on boarding have made the decision.

As for the person who says an AR is a bad platform due "wrestling", has forgot that an AR15 with a collapsible stock is pretty deftly moved around and is ideal to use to prevent hatch entry. I would submit that a 20 inch shot gun barrel Mossberg stand a greater issue for maneuver inside a hull.

An AR with Collapsable stock with a 16 inch barrel measure less 34 inches overall length.

In the Navy, we use both M4 (Military version of AR) and Shotguns. Both have a place.

FlyWright said:

Mossberg ''Just In Case'' Shotgun Package, Marinecoat, Orange Tube - Impact Guns

Click to expand...

I have a version of this Mossberg with a short, adjustable padded stock and the marine coat finish. My wife would never manage a pure pistol grip, but does fine with this. Now all I need is a boat to hide it on.

(BTW, law enforcement friends tell me the sound of a 12-gauge racking may stop most folks, but don't count on it with a meth-head.)

I have a 1911 I really like but it's Parkerized, I would need a stainless version. My overloads make a Gawd-awful bang and shoot smoke and flames everywhere which counts against it, but my wife and my daughter have had no trouble shooting it, probably due to its mass. 45ACP tends to make a large hole, but you might as well use a slingshot over 25 yards.

Which reminds me, I need to practise...

One can argue a bazillion different guns and types of ammo...but you really have to say to yourself...what about me, my boat, the biggest threat and how would I deal with it?

Defense has to be a plan and what tools do you need to make it happen?

No one tool is going to make it happen...you have to think where is the threat coming from and what will fit the bill.

While I love a shotgun...reality is that it may be a sledgehammer when all you need is a flyswatter.

I have a 6" Ruger, stainless Security Six 357...and if I ever really think I want it for protection on the boat...I may just have 2 rounds snakeshot to get attention and/or hit the eyes, 2 rounds 38sp hollowpoint and then 2 rounds 357 if I need to keep going. Then 2 speedloaders with 38s in one and 357s in the other.

Flexibility and the way I see defending my boat my way.

A smallish handgun can be carried around, on deck without anyone noticing and hidden under a napkin...long guns aren't going to be quite as "dock/anchorage" friendly.

I don't see starting a shooting match till someone is trying to board...so long range is out...and as they are onboard..high power isn't really needed.

Also as has been posted and if not...the sound of a racking shotgun stopping anyone is a myth...it assumes a lot...like right off the bat the person heard it clearly and then even recognizes it....Hollywood stuff.

Again...my plan...my tool...my strategy....what's yours?

Tony

A pump action 12 gauge shotgun with a full stock, loaded with buckshot.

Its legal probably anywhere in the US, and be pruchased in stainless.

The 12 gauge shotgun at <=100' is probably the most effective self defense weapon to be had.

The sound of the action working is probably one of the most recognizable sounds in the world.

Blue Heron said:

Rifle or Handgun?


I would go with an AR-15. Collapse stock great round that won't penetrate like a .45 or 9mm will and light weight. Put an optic on it and you WILL hit your target. I would add a Surefire taclite.

This is my setup.

Click to expand...

My prefered weapon for the boat is a AR-10 in .308. Mine has a Trijicon ACOG for the sight. Very effective to say the least.

Great for my waters, but if we ever go cruising multistate I'd be worried it would be illegal in other states. Thats why I recommended the shotgun to the OP.

I keep a Winchester 12 ga. stainless steel marine shotgun on board. As a point of interest, does anyone know of any instance of a cruiser using a weapon to defend themselves while cruising in US coastal waters?

hmason said:

...... As a point of interest, does anyone know of any instance of a cruiser using a weapon to defend themselves while cruising in US coastal waters?

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I haven't read of any. Probably because if it did happen it wouldn't hardly be sensational enough to make the news. They would not be called 'cruisers'. They would more likely be referred to as 'these people on a boat....." and that's not sensational news.
In some areas, any crime short of multiple murders won't make the news in Houston, New Orleans, New York City, etc.
Besides, I would sleep better knowing I am not defenseless. Boats get robbed all of the time. Kinda like burglaries, every so often, they may unexpectedly find someone home.

Blue Heron said:

OD has it right with round. 5.56 or .223 is the preferred round because of frangibility.

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I certainly like mine

The shot gun "rack" is a fallacy. Guys intent on boarding have made the decision.

Click to expand...

angus99 said:

...(BTW, law enforcement friends tell me the sound of a 12-gauge racking may stop most folks, but don't count on it with a meth-head.)

Click to expand...

psneeld said:

...Also as has been posted and if not...the sound of a racking shotgun stopping anyone is a myth...it assumes a lot...like right off the bat the person heard it clearly and then even recognizes it....Hollywood stuff...

Click to expand...

I'm going to have to disagree in part with the above; however, each have a valid point.

From a real world scenario, not Hollywood but rather a BTDT position if you will, I can attest to the statement that the "rack" of a 12 Ga. pump, will gain the attention of the "average" person up to no good.

The key here is "average."

The OP indicated that he/they will be cruising in localized (if I understood correctly) U.S. Waters. Therefore the threat of attack from Caribbean or 3rd world "pirates" is NIL.

IMO, he's more than likely to encounter the drunken/pissed off recreational boater, or the local criminal in a marina, would we all not agree?

As such, "most" of these people are going to come under the heading of the "average" criminal. The "opportunist" out for a quick score, or professional burglar and thief that does this for a living.

Also consider that we're talking about a boat.
If underway or in a noisy marina, the point made that the intruder may not have heard the "rack" is well taken.

On the flip side, in the middle of the night, in a quiet harbor or marina, especially within the enclosed spaces of most vessels, that "RACK" is going to be dang near ear defining!!

So as mentioned by Blue Heron, the person (I'll say a group) "intent on boarding", will likely already have a contingency plan, superior firepower and numbers, and may not be as quickly dissuaded by the sound (if they even hear it as mentioned).

And Angus is also correct (from personal experience). The person on Meth, Crack, Acid, Heroin, PCP, Angel Dust or a variety of concoctions presently available on todays drug scene, will likely not be thwarted by the "sound" of a shotgun being charged. As a matter of fact, unless the shot placement is "correct", they may not be stopped by the average handgun/rifle round that fails to provide (as I state in training) "immediate cardiovascular and/or neurological dysfunction".

They don't have the common sense or mental capability to realize they're in a world of feces, or the physiological ability to realize they've been shot. An example is, we had a male take 7 .45 rounds in the torso, from approximately 20' to point blank range. The subject lived long enough to attack the now empty officer, wrestle with him and bite him in the face, until he (the suspect) "depressurized" (bled out) from the injuries caused by the rounds, and his body simply "shut down."

The drunk OTOH, will pretty much "get it" right off the bat

So for the shotgun group, I'll still say that it's a pretty decent home/vessel defense weapon for the cruiser community. you generally won't find one when we're out on the 22' Proline CC, simply because of our location, what we're most likely to encounter, and the lack of safe storage space that would still make it quickly accessible. We far too often have have kids/guests on board to take the chance.

However, should one find themselves making that poorly thought out decision to attempt to do harm to the vessel/crew/passengers, they WILL find a well armed, well trained and "dedicated" crew, able and intent on showing them the errs of their ways

...As for the person who says an AR is a bad platform due "wrestling", has forgot that an AR15 with a collapsible stock is pretty deftly moved around and is ideal to use to prevent hatch entry. I would submit that a 20 inch shot gun barrel Mossberg stand a greater issue for maneuver inside a hull. An AR with Collapsable stock with a 16 inch barrel measure less 34 inches overall length...

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I agree that the AR with the collapsible stock, is a fine weapon for securing a vessel and making entry into spaces on board. The same can be true with the shotgun (short barreled-legal length over the counter version) with a pistol grip. Both can and will/do get the job done. The up side to the AR is the lack of recoil, auto loading feature, and larger magazine capacity. The down side is, baring added opticals, you have to be a better shot (

In the Navy, we use both M4 (Military version of AR) and Shotguns. Both have a place.

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Absolutely.

...One can argue a bazillion different guns and types of ammo...but you really have to say to yourself...what about me, my boat, the biggest threat and how would I deal with it?

Defense has to be a plan and what tools do you need to make it happen?

No one tool is going to make it happen...you have to think where is the threat coming from and what will fit the bill.

While I love a shotgun...reality is that it may be a sledgehammer when all you need is a flyswatter.

Click to expand...

Thank you!! Very well stated.

...A smallish handgun can be carried around, on deck without anyone noticing and hidden under a napkin...long guns aren't going to be quite as "dock/anchorage" friendly.

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Very true. Both have their place in on board/UW security.

As ksanders stated:

The sound of the action working is probably one of the most recognizable sounds in the world.

Click to expand...

I still have to stand by this statement.

I don't see starting a shooting match till someone is trying to board...so long range is out...and as they are onboard..high power isn't really needed.

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For the purposes of the OP's question, I'd have to agree.

Not to get too far off into left field, but "If" the OP were considering traversing areas where the likelihood of being boarded by more nefarious types were increased, I'd say definitely have something a bit more "long range" available. Not that it's easy to hit a target underway, much less multiple adversaries attacking from various positions, but a shotgun is a limited range weapon. At least the AR platform "may" provide some distance and time.

Sticking with the OP's concerns, if you can do it, carry a sidearm and a long gun (your choice-rifle or shotgun) for just the reasons mentioned above.

Each has it's place

BTW- these are just my OPINIONS (and we all know about those, right?), based on a lot of time on the road, behind a weapon, conducting training, and a pretty decent number of hours UW.
Everyone has differing opinions, and I respect each of them.

Your results may vary....

All the best...

OD

Half-naked man steals boat, rams others at Seattle marina | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News

Svendsen told police he was afraid the boat thief would kill someone, so he grabbed his shotgun and fired, wounding the suspected thief in the head and hand.

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The thief then got off the boat and onto a dock where medics arrived and took him to Harborview Medical Center. Officials say the 22-year-old man's wounds were not life-threatening and he remains under guard at the hospital until he can be released and booked into the King County Jail.

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No one else was injured in the rampage. The armed citizen was interviewed by officers and released at the scene.

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Short barrel pump shotgun. But I'd go with 20 gauge, not 12, especially for female operators. Less recoil, nearly the same results down range. Will certainly deliver the message!

And, it's not a scarey black rifle.

My vote is a shot gun too. Its what i use on the boat and in my RV too.

here are the reasons:
1) I use a 'New England Arms' protector. 12ga. Its cheap. Nothing special no wood. No its not a stainless and will rust away and need replaced. But at $225 i won't cry about it. its an 870 knock off so the design is a well tested design.

2) It has an 18.5'' barrel which means it is still technically a 'long gun', which makes it legal in many more places than a hand gun. It is viewed as more of a 'tool' than a weapon.

3) light enough to use but heavy enough that my wife will shoot it.

4) ammo. 12ga ammo is cheap and variety is good. Major consideration is where will your stray shot and/or bullet go? In an boat there is a good chance unless you have a specialty round it is going to go into your dock partner's boat. 12 ga offers a huge variety of rounds. Personally here is how i load mine. the first one is a load literally with pepper. Cyan to be exact. the next two are nonlethal foam buckshot. the next 2 are 00 lead buckshot.

With it loaded like that i can legally prove escalation of force and with the exception of the last 2 rounds will not harm my boat or tear into anothers.

Tony B said:

2) Easy and non-intimidation for a female to operate - I'm speaking of my wife, not my feminine side.

Click to expand...

Recommend you let you wife choose her own. My Admiral is competent in several shooting disciplines and with several platforms... but her preferences became important for this kind of selection.

For example, she does NOT like the sound/feel of a semi-auto or slide-action shotgun, with all those moving part; prefers break-open SxS and O/U doubles. Similarly, she does NOT like the mechanical action of a semi-auto pistol (although she shoots whose quite well); prefers a revolver.

And so forth.

Also recommend you try to rent and actually shoot candidate firearms in advance, see if they live up to expectations.

-Chris

All good points.


Florida doesn't require a defender to prove "escalation of force". A gun is considered loaded if a magazine is in the weapon even if a round is not chambered.

My wife is accurate and able with an EO Tech on the AR.

Florida Castle Doctrine extends to boats..

For simplicity and ease of use I would also vote for a revolver in either .38 special or .357 magnum loaded with whatever ammo floats your boat.
Stainless if you can of course.
Any good brand will do, mine is a Ruger speed six in .357 and I added some larger rubber grips to fit my hands better. Wife has a speed six in .38. Whats nice is they both feel operate and shoot the same so we can use either without having to think about it.
We bought them used for fairly cheap so we're not anal about getting them dinged up, plus the actions are nice and smooth from use.

I really try an stay out of post like these, due to many different opinions on this issue. But in this case I will break my rule and throw my thoughts in.

face it, none of us really want to use any kind of fire arm on a person. But I do see the need to have some kind of fire arm on board in some cases.

In my case, my first line of defence (on the water or at home) are my dogs. They will tell me when something is wrong, or if someone is about. That gives me time to act.

In most cases my dogs will make any unwanted visitor think twice before coming onto my vessel or in my home. But we do have knockheads out there that are dumber than a box of rocks.

If that does not work, my second line of defence in a 12ga 870 wing master pump with a 20" deer slayer and tube extension.

My reason for using the 870 pump is not due to the power of it, but due to the sound it makes as you jacket a round.

That sound is an universal language that any good person or bad person will clearly understand and 9 times out of 10, once they hear that sound they will be butt holes and elbows to get away of it.

This does work in many cases and it has worked one night for my wife when I was away. Some low life broke into our home, our dogs went nuts my wife move our girls into our room and had one call 911, then picked up the 870 and yelled!

"This is what coming your way!" Then jacketed a round! She heard the guy running to get out of our home. The cop picked him up about a block away (Thank God) and he was scared Sh...itless.

My last line of defence is to use the 870. My reasons why it is last. And I do mean last! I hate all the paper work that would go along with using it.

If I did not have an 870 on my vessel or home, my next choice is my M-1911-A1. The slow moving 230gr hard ball round will take anyone off their feet even if they are high on something. If not the second round will for sure.


Happy and safe cruising to you all.

H. Foster

Armed for "all seasons": 30-caliber machine gun, 22-caliber self-loading rifle, 12-gage shotgun, and pistols.

I really appreciate all of the suggestions. I am not normally a gun person but gang initiation seems to be growing in popularity. As I mentioned earlier, I am neither young nor large. Elderly people are becoming very attractive targets. I am not likely to 'carry' and at this point I don't see it being necessary in my area. I just want protection for my home (my boat - I am a live-aboard).