Fisher Panda Genset thoughts.

I have read lots of rehashed dissatisfied reviews online regarding FP ( I have also read dissatisfied reviews of most every brand of genny) but they mostly seem to revolve around earlier models that pumped saltwater through the system leading to corrosion issues.

They now pump fresh water through the newer models, so that problem should be gone if maintenance (anodes) are checked and replaced as needed.

I have the opportunity to buy a 10 year old one and it would have an overhaul done before fitting, but am trying to find out if they are a decent unit or not.

I realise they have limitations (light and fast spinning) but so do other brands (heavy and very expensive).



Thoughts?

Well, I think that there are two schools of thought on F-P gensets today. One says that they are marvelously engineered examples of German ingenuity. Others say that they are too damn complex and simple but heavy engineering is better.

If you meticulously keep up with maintenance, you probably will be satisfied, maybe even very happy with a F-P. But if you want to just run it and do minimal oil changes, then you will be happier with a Northern Lights or similar genset.

David

I'm an old school generator guy. big, heavy, and slow. 1800 RPM is great. 1200 RPM (if you can find one) is better.

I've personally seen several of the smaller Northern Lights units go over 10,000 hours. Generally something other than just wearing out kills them. Overheating is a big cause of premature generator replacement.

I bought a NL marine generator several years ago that was pulled out of a boat for replacement. The only reason it was pulled was because the generator tech that tried to fix it was incompetent. I fixed it by replacing the bridge rectifier in the transformer type voltage regulator (yes it was old). and had it running in less than an hour. The owner said the hour meter had turned over once, and it had 6,000 hours showing, meaning it had 16,000 hours on the unit.

I put it on a load bank and it still pulled its full rated load without excessive smoke.

You'll never get that kind of service life out of a panda unit.

Just a FYI...

Small 1800 rpm generators in continuos duty typically get between 25 and 30,000 hours before rebuild or replacement.

Drop to 1200 RPM and you can literally get a decade or more of continuous duty between rebuilds.

djmarchand said:

Well, I think that there are two schools of thought on F-P gensets today. One says that they are marvelously engineered examples of German ingenuity. Others say that they are too damn complex and simple but heavy engineering is better.

If you meticulously keep up with maintenance, you probably will be satisfied, maybe even very happy with a F-P. But if you want to just run it and do minimal oil changes, then you will be happier with a Northern Lights or similar genset.

David

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As stated, weight is an issue
the difference being near 100kg

Secondly the cost.
The 2nd hand FP with a rebuilt engine and a tart up will owe me around $2500

The heavy metal (Kubota D1105-BG @ 1500rpm) will be around $16,000 (Australia) and I would imagine Northern Lights would cost a bit more again.

At those prices, gensets werent even in the ballpark as I would rather pump extra at solar.
But $2500? Thats a number that gets me leaning heavily towards genset

ksanders said:

I'm an old school generator guy. big, heavy, and slow. 1800 RPM is great. 1200 RPM (if you can find one) is better.

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I am the same with primary propulsion, nothing faster than 1850 and 1100 (Gardner) is better again.
But, sometimes things change

How are you going to use the generator? For vacations or weekends, the FP should be fine if you're diligent. If you are full time cruising, I would go with the 1800 rpm gen sets. How is FP supported in OZ?

In the USA a simple gen head 4-6KW is well under $1000.

A nice Honda twin of about 18 hp is about $2k.

A coupler is $20, and a throttle control another $200. DIY

OR then there is the RV folks with a 6KW Honda at RV prices , that is water cooled (quiet) and can make hot water for a heater .

Price parts for the old German unit , as rare and as pri$y as Volvo.

Larry M said:

How are you going to use the generator? For vacations or weekends, the FP should be fine if you're diligent. If you are full time cruising, I would go with the 1800 rpm gen sets. How is FP supported in OZ?

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It was intended to be a daily use item
At a guess it would be running A/c for a couple of hours at night and charging the battery bank at the same time
Its an 8 kva genny.

Apparently it was running and producing 110v when taken from the boat but it does need work.
It presents well appearance wise and can be wound over by hand, so no seizure, but it has an oil leak somewhere that needs to be repaired and it appears to have done a head gasket, which is why I am suggesting it needs a rebuild.
This is represented in its near giveaway price.

A picture I took on inspection, Is that green radiator fluid around edge of oil filler hole , signs of rust and is the white substance inside what happens when water and oil mix?



If weight wasn't an issue I would be looking at a heavier, slower unit , especially if I could get one on the cheap.
Unfortunately, weight is an issue.

Run don't walk away from that POS. See the rust on the valve lifter shaft. That is from salt water.

Salt water damage is one of the signature failures of F-Ps. The rw pump seal starts to leak and sprays sw through out the enclosure. Everything gets soaked and the engine sucks it in. Out of sight, out of mind for a few hours until the engine comes to its final stop.

David

djmarchand said:

Run don't walk away from that POS. See the rust on the valve lifter shaft. That is from salt water.

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Yes, but if we are doing a rebuild on the engine, should not that issue be taken care of?

Salt water damage is one of the signature failures of F-Ps. The rw pump seal starts to leak and sprays sw through out the enclosure. Everything gets soaked and the engine sucks it in.

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Signature FP failure???
The raw water pump is external to the motor and appears to be a Johnson pump.
How can a seal on that pump be blamed of FP?

Out of sight, out of mind for a few hours until the engine comes to its final stop.

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By that you mean seizure?

This has not seized, I could turn it by hand.

You seem to really want to buy and rebuild that engine. And don't forget rebuilding the generator end as well.

Every machined steel and aluminum part in that engine is probably corroded and must be replaced. Everything but the block and maybe the crank. Even buying Kubota (I think that is a Kubota) parts from a tractor dealer will cost as much as a new genset. The electronics on the generator end are junk and can only be purchased from F-P.

Seals fail certainly. But it is F-Ps fault how the raw water pump is mounted so raw water gets slinged everywhere. That is not the case on my generator.

It may not have been a bad seal. It could be a bad exhaust system design (part manufacturer, part installer's fault) that allowed sea water to back up into the engine. Often that locks up the engine when you try to start due to hydraulic lock. But I wouldn't expect that kind of corrosion.

I don't know why it stopped. I doubt if the crank seized and if it now turns, it turns. Maybe a corroded valve stem got stuck open.

David

djmarchand said:

You seem to really want to buy and rebuild that engine. And don't forget rebuilding the generator end as well.

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Actually, I want to save $16,000 (the price difference between this and a new heavy genny or a new FP in the same size)

I wont be doing the rebuild, I'll have a mechanic to that for me

Every machined steel and aluminum part in that engine is probably corroded and must be replaced. Everything but the block and maybe the crank.

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You're really just guessing aren't you.
You cant possibly now that for a fact.

The motor visually appears fine, the only corrosion visible is a bit around the exhaust elbow - an easy fix or replace

Even buying Kubota (I think that is a Kubota) parts from a tractor dealer will cost as much as a new genset.

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Yes it is a Kubota
A well respected diesel mechanic reckons about $1500 for a refurb ($500 parts $1000 labour)
Thats considerably less than a new genset
FP 8kva here is $19,000
http://bla.com.au/default/shop-onli...s/fischer-panda-marine-generator-iseries.html

The electronics on the generator end are junk and can only be purchased from F-P.

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Says who, you?
You just told me the parts for a rebuild would cost $19,000

Seals fail certainly. But it is F-Ps fault how the raw water pump is mounted so raw water gets slinged everywhere. That is not the case on my generator.

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Well, just about every diesel engine I have seen has the raw water pump bolted to the same part of the engine for the drive.
Logic says that they to would have a similar issue if a seal failed

It may not have been a bad seal. It could be a bad exhaust system design (part manufacturer, part installer's fault) that allowed sea water to back up into the engine.

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Once again, you are guessing.
Who said it was sea water, ther eis green water ound the lip in the pic, to me it looks like cooling fluid.
The unit was also mounted under the sink on the previous vessel, so it may be water from there.

I don't know why it stopped.

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Who said it stopped?
If you read my post I said

Apparently it was running and producing 110v when taken from the boat but it does need work.

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Its pretty obvious that you have a major issue with them but I wonder why?
Have you ever actually had one to be able to comment with such conviction?

You are getting good advice here. It seems as though are set on buying this unit. So buy it. I see hours of frustration in your future

Boy, I know Oz prices can be surprisingly high, but $19k for that gen - yikes, no wonder you guys still pay huge shipping and other transaction costs for boats from elsewhere.

Why bother asking for advice if you don't like what you get? Just buy the damn thing and take pictures while you rebuilt it so you can impress us with a fait accompli.

The water in the innards is enough to case one to walk away. But several engine only sinkers have been brought to life, not sure about gensets though. Any way you can deduce if the genset end is OK? How about a Honda 3000 KW gas or small diesel portable unit?

How about doing an analysis on the chocolate mousse looking oil. If it comes back with high sodium and potassium in a 20-30:1 ratio, then it is seawater. Otherwise if it is only sodium, then it is probably antifreeze.

If it is salt water then the oil analysis will almost surely show very high Fe and Al content due to internal corrosion.

Then make your decision to rebuild.

I must agree the external pics don't look anything like the one looking down into the valve gear, so maybe the water in the oil isn't a result of a failed raw water seal. This would mean that the generator end is probably good.

You can buy a brand new 5.5 KW NextGen, 2 cylinder Kubota based genset in the US for about $8,000 including sound enclosure. It isn't as good as a Northern Lights but it isn't a bad generator for casual use.

David

kthoennes said:

Boy, I know Oz prices can be surprisingly high, but $19k for that gen - yikes, no wonder you guys still pay huge shipping and other transaction costs for boats from elsewhere.

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I paid $12K for a new with warranty Northern Lights 9KW with the sound shield in 2011

The westerbeke 8 kw was $8k at the time

djmarchand said:

How about doing an analysis on the chocolate mousse looking oil. If it comes back with high sodium and potassium in a 20-30:1 ratio, then it is seawater. Otherwise if it is only sodium, then it is probably antifreeze.

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Not enough time unfortunately

Then make your decision to rebuild.

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I am thinking that even if it is rooted internally and I have to buy a new motor, which are around $2000, I will still be well infront Vs buying new.

I must agree the external pics don't look anything like the one looking down into the valve gear, so maybe the water in the oil isn't a result of a failed raw water seal. This would mean that the generator end is probably good.

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That is what I was thinking as well
And, if you can believe the seller/owner, it was working on removal, he just needs more power.
On his boat it was hard to get out and difficult to access so he thought it wise to overhaul it before re-installing.

You can buy a brand new 5.5 KW NextGen, 2 cylinder Kubota based genset in the US for about $8,000 including sound enclosure.

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And if I could do that here I would probably be going down that path

sunchaser said:

Any way you can deduce if the genset end is OK?

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No, but from their website they say

Fischer Panda warrants the rotor, often the most sensitive part of other generator systems, with a lifetime guarantee.

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so seeing as it hasn't been drowned you would like to think it would be fine

How about a Honda 3000 KW gas

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There will be limited petrol on board and it'll be for the dinghy

or small diesel portable unit

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That was an option I looked at but have you heard the noise from them?

Xsbank said:

Why bother asking for advice if you don't like what you get?

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Its not that I don't like what I get its more that it has not been based on any facts.

No one has come out and said they are a POS because "insert actual flaw here" is a recurring problem.

If someone has any "actual" information pointing to a recurring flaw, believe me, I am all ears.

Yes, I know a considerably heavier motor will likely have more longevity than a smaller lighter motor - but Kubotas are a good brand and there is anecdotal evidence suggesting as apu unit for trucks they are getting more hours out of them than I will put on it in 20 years as long as it is well maintained and dry.

Google fp. No matter if it were brand new. It is.still a pos and.will cause u endless hrs of frustration

motion30 said:

Google fp. No matter if it were brand new. It is.still a pos and.will cause u endless hrs of frustration

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And what "FACTS" have you based your opinion on?

Is it just a repeated opinion you have seen parroted across the web based on the earlier models that were sea water cooled.
Newer models are freshwater cooled.

If you have something else to support your vehement opinion, please enlighten me.

And I have googled them, extensively - corrosion on earlier models due to salt water cooling seems to be the main issue I found.
This one is FRESH water cooled.

I also googled other brands of genset and see that they also have their detractors.

To me, it sounds like Ford/Holden in Australia.
A ford man will claim a holden is a POS and vice versa , none of it based on fact.
Reality is they are both fine motorcars each with their own faults, which any mechanical item will have.

From your posts, you sound like you're using circular reasoning regarding this unit.

You seem to have a preconceived theory that rebuilding this generator is a good idea, and you are making justifications to support your theory.

You do not know if the generator end is any good.
You know the engine is a rust bucket inside.

You believe that you can get a rebuild for $1000 in labor and what, $500 in parts, if I read your post correctly. This is almost guaranteed not to be the case.

You believe that you can get a new motor for $2,000. If thats true, then you'd be way better buying new rather than rebuilding, but I dont believe that you'll find a new motor for $2,000, but I could be wrong there.

If you were mechanically inclined enough to do this job yourself, and felt like doing the work, then I'd say to go for it. Your labor would be free and you'd learn allot.

Since you're hiring the job out, I'd say to not even try.

Here''s a little background on what I'm saying.

I am in the backup power business. I've worked on generators as part of my living for over 30 years.

When I first went into business for myself back in 1997 I had this bright idea that I would take in used worn out small prime power generators, completely rebuild them to like new condition and re-sell them, allowing a trade in of the old unit. Sounds like a good business plan, right... Nope

The fact is that I tried several of them, and found that by the time I paid myself for labor at a profitable shop rate, and bought the parts,I was approaching the price I could pay for a new complete generator, at dealer prices.

Thats why shops do not do rebuilds of small generators very often. It doesn't make financial sense. Larger generators, yes, but not small ones.

So, good luck. Take the advice or not, its your sword to fall on.

ksanders said:

From your posts, you sound like you're using circular reasoning regarding this unit.

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And from the posts here from others it seems they are also making circular reasoning, they are saying NOT to do it because they heard something repeated by "some guy" on the interwebs.

You seem to have a preconceived theory that rebuilding this generator is a good idea, and you are making justifications to support your theory.

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Quite possibly
But that theory is based on FACTS that a new genny in any brand will cost me at least 7x more than what I could get this one working for.

You do not know if the generator end is any good.

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And you do not know that it is not.
The owner/seller said it is (it was working and churning out 110 before removal).
FP have a lifetime warranty on that end of their product
I would like to think it should be fine

You know the engine is a rust bucket inside.

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I do not know that at all.
The very top of the motor is dry of oil and shows signs of surface rust
That does not mean necessarily that the rest of it is a rust bucket, but all that will be revealed when it is pulled down, if it even needs to be.

You believe that you can get a rebuild for $1000 in labor and what, $500 in parts, if I read your post correctly. This is almost guaranteed not to be the case.

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Quite possibly
The mechanic did approximate, but the last rebuild he did for me on a small Isuzu came in under his initial estimate.

You believe that you can get a new motor for $2,000. If thats true, then you'd be way better buying new rather than rebuilding, but I dont believe that you'll find a new motor for $2,000, but I could be wrong there.

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I based that number on this ad which has expired

Kubota Z482 Engines for Sale

These beautiful Kubota "Super-Mini" 2-cylinder 13.5 HP diesel engines are new and unused. There are four available. A starter and starter mount plate is included, There is no factory warranty as they are "old stock" but we guarantee they are new and unused and that they will run. A testing period of two weeks after receipt is allowed. If the engine fails to run it may be returned at buyer's expense for the full purchase price (not including shipping).

The engines are located in Marrickville, NSW 2204 (suburb of Sydney) and are for local pickup or shipment to Australia addresses only at shipping cost plus $25 for packing. The price is A$1995 per engine.
Kubota Z482-E2B Diesel Engine For Sale

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I would assume that I should be able to get one not far off that price - I'll make a call now shall I?

If you were mechanically inclined enough to do this job yourself, and felt like doing the work, then I'd say to go for it. Your labor would be free and you'd learn allot.

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Initially, this is exactly what I planned on doing.
But if $1500 gets a result, I wouldn't be bothered.

The fact is that I tried several of them, and found that by the time I paid myself for labor at a profitable shop rate, and bought the parts,I was approaching the price I could pay for a new complete generator, at dealer prices.

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And if in America, that would probably be the case
Here, I have a long way to go before it gets anywhere near the cost of new.

So, good luck. Take the advice or not, its your sword to fall on.

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Indeed it is and I am prepared to take the punt.

Especially as no one has come out with any reason NOT to do it apart from:
*Several owners on the Internet were not happy with corrosion on early models (but countless thousands have made no comment, happy owners rarely do)
*It may cost more than I think (but still a whole lot less than $16,000)
*A heavier genset will most like last longer.

Was there another reason I missed?

Your sword my king.

Parmenter,
Don`t easily discount the remarkably quiet Honda, or less costly (? good copy) Kipor. I kept a noisy Yamaha clone on my last boat, found places for fuel above deck, they use little fuel anyway.
Weighing economics and the diagnoses/predictions, isn`t your best option to punt and go ahead. Not a lot to lose, much to gain, and the FP unit must suit your boat.

BruceK said:

Parmenter,
Don`t easily discount the remarkably quiet Honda

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Hi Bruce, if I was only using it for weekends or even the occasional week away that is exactly what I would have but as I will have a live-aboard vessel and it mostly will be not be that close to easily accessible petrol I would have to carry more than I would be comfortable carrying.

On my last boat when we lived aboard we would often spend 3 to 4 weeks at a time away, but then we only had a 2hp outboard on the dinghy.
Now I was working on fuel usage of a 15 - 20hp outboard on a decent dinghy for exploration and fishing forays.
An hour/day @ 6lph for 4 weeks = 180 litres of fuel to be carried
Plus another 2 or 3/day for a petrol genny (up near 300 litres now) is more petrol than I would be comfortable carrying.
Mind you, 5 litres will probably go up with as much of a bang as 300L

and the FP unit must suit your boat

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It suits it more an a $16000 heavyweight genny which would have be housed down aft with the already heavyweight primary engine and the heavy dinghy.
At least this FP could be mounted up front in an easily accessible walk in storage area, distributing the load somewhat.