Looked at a boat and have questions

ksanders said:

I have a friend that had a 4788 Bayliner and was upside down. His bank allowed a short sale as opposed to a repossession and sale.

The problem with a short sale is who pays the difference between the boat sale price and the loan amount?

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Really depends on the short sale agreement....a good short sale attorney (I had one for 4 properties) will get the bank to agree that they will not come after the difference. Some will (especially if the paper was sold to a 3rd party)...many won't unless we are talking bigger bucks on the difference...because the legal fees add up quickly.

In real estate...not too long ago the banks were offering a cash incentive if the short sale went quickly...my one bank sent me a check for $1500 for being out of the property within the month for closing.

The banks are more lenient if the note has been held awhile...remember they made a huge amount on interest all those years...and they get the deduction on the bad loan...so as long as they aren't eating too many short sales and foreclosures...it's just the cost of doing business with them.

One day I was sitting on the beach talking to a guy admiring all the boats at anchor. We got admiring all the boats and I said my center console was the little one over in the corner and he told me where his was. I commented on how people could afford all these really nice boats (mid-90s when times were roaring)...he said they couldn't...he was a banker and that probably at least half those boats would be repoed....boat loans were his top headache. he said enjoy what you have...especially if you own it outright.

hfoster said:

Art.

As you always say. "There is another deal around the corner!" There are Banks out there that will not deal on this or that. But in time they will end up giving that vessel away. I would say given time, someone will pick that vessel up for about 3k, but by then the vessel will not be worth anything.

Happy crusing Art all the best to you and yours my friend.

H. Foster

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Mr. HF, My Friend! Great ta see ya back in da TF loop...

To a boat knowledgeable buyer, in today’s market, that boat I was mentioning is probably worth just about what you mentioned $3k +/- realistically. 33’ CC flybridge cruiser with full weekend-fun accoutrements and twin 454’s at 140 hrs each from brand new in latter 1990’s. Boat layout is very cool and speed is somewhat affordable at a reported 24 knots (approx 1 nmpg). Top speed is reported to hit 34 kph – God knows nmpg at WOT (1/3 nmpg, maybe??) And, I feel sure she could get close to 2 nmpg at around 6 knots! It’s been in Lake Tahoe and SF Delta fresh waters since new. I was going to purchase simply for a rental item that had full coverage by others and the boat was to also be kept up by others. Would have been an OK deal! Flaws I found: Port stringer has too much moisture, but could be overcome/repaired at a bit of cost (starboard stringer was dry). No FWC heat transfer system... raw water only. To put in FWC (so could be correctly run in SF Bay) is few thousand in parts and a big pia for me or way too expensive if I shopped it out – quotes from $9K to $12K.

Happy Boating Daze – H

Cheers! - Art

psneeld said:

Really depends on the short sale agreement....a good short sale attorney (I had one for 4 properties) will get the bank to agree that they will not come after the difference. Some will (especially if the paper was sold to a 3rd party)...many won't unless we are talking bigger bucks on the difference...because the legal fees add up quickly.

In real estate...not too long ago the banks were offering a cash incentive if the short sale went quickly...my one bank sent me a check for $1500 for being out of the property within the month for closing.

The banks are more lenient if the note has been held awhile...remember they made a huge amount on interest all those years...and they get the deduction on the bad loan...so as long as they aren't eating too many short sales and foreclosures...it's just the cost of doing business with them.

One day I was sitting on the beach talking to a guy admiring all the boats at anchor. We got admiring all the boats and I said my center console was the little one over in the corner and he told me where his was. I commented on how people could afford all these really nice boats (mid-90s when times were roaring)...he said they couldn't...he was a banker and that probably at least half those boats would be repoed....boat loans were his top headache. he said enjoy what you have...especially if you own it outright.

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If the banks signed into the federal programs, they were reimbursed their loss with taxpayers money.

The fed took ownership positions via stock in these banks. Just ask BoA.

I seem to remember that Carver purchased Californian in the late eighties. To that point Californian was a well respected brand with a good following. The build quality was on par with the similar sized Bayliners, SeaRays and Cruisers. Unfortunately after rebadging the Californian for a few years, Carver elected to shut down the CA plant and go with their own designs and builds, elsewhere in the US.

I like the Californians and many are in great shape with none of the warts the OP has noted in the bank repo. It sounds like the repo is ready for some major dollars, if it is not a hurricane Sandy survivor. I'm suspicious though of salt water in the ER, not a good sign.

My guess is the repo would require a lot of money, likely the same amount a well found vessel of similar size would cost to buy it outright. Also, knowing the Californian as I do, the FB enclosure will easily cost $8K. Get your wallet out, along with a long rehab if this vessel is as you describe it.

boat buying is kind of like this ...

Joe Pesci SNL pinky ring - YouTube

With water in the ER check the stringers VERY Carefully. If they are wood core and water got in the stringer(s) may be toast! I've seen that happen to several boats. Stringers can cost price of boat to repair once rotten. And, strong stringers are a MUST!

Just be careful and walk away if needed... another boat for you is around the corner!

Boat loans here include personal recourse on top of the boat, and are often secured over other assets too.
It`s axiomatic that the boat owner who can`t pay his boat loan probably couldn`t pay to maintain the boat either.

Art.

Yeah, been busy digging into power plants and trans plus some other things for my project. Have take a few more step towards our dream.

From what you said on that vessel. YES I would have walked away as well. In these hard times, there are too many great deals out there if you really look. I just seen a report not to long ago, that said. "Sales on vessels from 40' on down, are up 33% and sales on vessels above 40' are down 23% over last year. Ebach hit the nail are on the head when he said. "Larger vessels are not selling."

I have seen many price reductions on larger vessels just in the pass 3 months. A friend of mine has been eyeing 90' Queenship for his company. I think it's 2002 or so. The vessel was custom built with 1.5 mil of toys added to her just last year. The vessel has been well kept and is spotless. The asking price started at 2.7 mil. and has dropped all the way down to 1.9 mil. That is a big drop in price for a vessel like that.

The way I see it, the market has not bottomed out as of yet. I believe in the next 2 years we will see lager top end vessels going for half the price they are right now. It is truley a buyers market for larger vessels and that market is going to get better.

Happy crusing to you my friend.

H. Foster

hfoster said:

Art.

Yeah, been busy digging into power plants and trans plus some other things for my project. Have take a few more step towards our dream.

From what you said on that vessel. YES I would have walked away as well. In these hard times, there are too many great deals out there if you really look. I just seen a report not to long ago, that said. "Sales on vessels from 40' on down, are up 33% and sales on vessels above 40' are down 23% over last year. Ebach hit the nail are on the head when he said. "Larger vessels are not selling."

I have seen many price reductions on larger vessels just in the pass 3 months. A friend of mine has been eyeing 90' Queenship for his company. I think it's 2002 or so. The vessel was custom built with 1.5 mil of toys added to her just last year. The vessel has been well kept and is spotless. The asking price started at 2.7 mil. and has dropped all the way down to 1.9 mil. That is a big drop in price for a vessel like that.

The way I see it, the market has not bottomed out as of yet. I believe in the next 2 years we will see lager top end vessels going for half the price they are right now. It is truley a buyers market for larger vessels and that market is going to get better.

Happy crusing to you my friend.

H. Foster

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H

TY for price info on da biggies. Sounds like “Galaxy Girl” had better wait a couple years till she buys a biggie... if she ever will at all?? I stopped posting or even reading her threads months ago... Reminds me of a kid at ice cream counter that can't decide on what flavor ice cream to order and simply will not listen to reason by elders. Don, of “Moonstruck” backed away about same time as me. When she starts a thread there are others who still give her the redundant suggestions over and again. She should read your post quoted here and simply wait till prices at least approach the bottom.

Best luck with your present play toy and the eventual build-out of your Fleming!

Ciao, Art

Art, my friend.

I see you saw the light along with some others... LOL
Posts are free to read, what someone takes from them is on them. Thanks for you best wishs my friend. 1 step at a time I say to get it right. lol

I am afraid we have hijecked Ebach thread, Sorry about that Ebach!!!. I do hope things are working out with your project. Keep us posted!

Ok Art. Thanks again and you are welcome on the input on the biggies.

Cheers my friend.

H.foster

Art said:

H

TY for price info on da biggies. Sounds like “Galaxy Girl” had better wait a couple years till she buys a biggie... if she ever will at all?? I stopped posting or even reading her threads months ago... Reminds me of a kid at ice cream counter that can't decide on what flavor ice cream to order and simply will not listen to reason by elders. Don, of “Moonstruck” backed away about same time as me. When she starts a thread there are others who still give her the redundant suggestions over and again. She should read your post quoted here and simply wait till prices at least approach the bottom.

Best luck with your present play toy and the eventual build-out of your Fleming!

Ciao, Art

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I think it's funny that she is now MIA...

>I think it's funny that she is now MIA...<

In a few years she may finally be able to save that $5,000 for her boat reward.

I do agree about the centerline fuel tanks. There are two between the mid-berth stateroom and Master and one under the Master underneath the water tank. When I purchased mine (which was a REPO) I had the tanks pressure tested and they were bad. There is an interconnect between the 2 that corrodes. The under-berth tank is 160 gallons and the fwd aft tank is 200 gallons. I made the condition that the bank replace the tanks. They countered with one tank replacement. I agreed as I felt an additional 200 gallons was not necessary for my needs. The boat many other items and new upgrades that made my decision to pursue the sale. As far as the small boat wakes affecting the boat and "that it is top heavy" is absolutely false.

I have had the boat for 2 years now and figured it would take me 40k to get her where I wanted her to be, she is mechanically sound and 99% percent of what I have done so far is cosmetic. The only mechanical items I have done are oil changes, impellors, new AGM 8d batteries and a few hoses and the compensator tank for the freshwater system. As far as my budget of 40k. I am only at 25% of my figure and I am down to new carpet and wood floors in the galley, some more varnishing, new faucets through out the boat as they are pitted and I want shiny new chrome and maybe granite countertops in the galley and heads.

Art said:

With water in the ER check the stringers VERY Carefully. If they are wood core and water got in the stringer(s) may be toast! I've seen that happen to several boats. Stringers can cost price of boat to repair once rotten. And, strong stringers are a MUST!

Just be careful and walk away if needed... another boat for you is around the corner!

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The Carver built models I have surveyed have molded fiberglass stringers. I think the west coast builds are fiberglassed wood.

"As far as the small boat wakes affecting the boat and "that it is top heavy" is absolutely false. "

True to a point, but is comes down to the model of Carver and how the Fly Bridge is loaded on some models. To me this is Top Heavy!

Hfoster, I agree that the 506 model as being top heavy but we are not talking about the 506. We are talking about the late 80's 48 foot Californians. Completely different boats.

Knot.

Once again I will state it all comes down to the model of Carver when it comes to Top Heavy issue. Case in point!

1989 48' Carver Californian | Boat Sale Market


Some models are a little better the others my Friend!

Happy cruising.

H. Foster

HA HA Wow I stand corrected. This is obviously a custom job but point taken.

Knot.

No Worries my friend... And No it is not a custom job. This is just add ons from Carver. Hard top, encloser and aft hard top and so forth. The point is, Carver by adding these items makes the vessel more top heavy and at slower speeds they rock more due to the upper load.

Just look at it this way. The side walk arounds are about 7" per side in most cases. That in return only gives you a bottom with of 14" wider than top upper deck. The more weight that is packed on the upper deck the more top heavy it becomes.

My numbers are not 100% but it gives you some idea of what I am saying.

Happy cruising my friend.


H. Foster

without a stability test...looks/pictures don't mean a thing.....

just a guess...maybe a good guess...but a guess none the less....

psneeld said:

without a stability test...looks/pictures don't mean a thing.....

just a guess...maybe a good guess...but a guess none the less....

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True, look at the new cruise ships.

Great point on stability test, but common sense also comes into play here. You take a vessel that seems top heavy or is top heavy to a degree, than you look at the hull and see there are no stabilizers on it odds are she is going to rock and roll at lower speeds with waves and wakes.

I have seen and been on many Carvers, of many different sizes, and I have never seen stabilizer on any of them. Not to say someone somewhere has not placed stabilizers on a Carver.

Keep in mind, Carvers are a planning vessel. Their stability comes from planning up out of the water. The debate is. “Carvers rock greatly at lower speeds from wakes from smaller vessels and waves because they are top heavy.”

Cruise ships are top heavy, and a great deal of them have stabilizers and they are kicking out some knots while under way. If you have been on a cruise ship in rough seas, you would know just how badly they pitch and roll due to their upper load. In fact, I just seen a story about how top heavy cruise ships are becoming and their size are becoming that of Air craft carriers which is making them unsafe.

But that is a whole other debate. We are not talking about cruise ships we are talking about late 80s Carvers!

I do enjoy us kicking this issue around, because it adds insight to someone like Ebach looking at buying a Carver and that is what this forum is for.

Happy cruising.
H. Foster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkoylJdPPLM

Need more be said!

Nice clean bottom!

Great video Art. Thanks for the post.

Now just think if that cruise ship was like some of these really top heavy stack ships that they have out there? My God I would not what to think what would happen to it and the people on it.

Happy cruising.

H. Foster

Those fifty-foot waves coming from the beam spilled my cereal and milk on my lap. A good-sized wake would do the same on the Coot.

Beach Bum.

That is one heck of a way to see if the bottom is clean or not! LOL

Markpierce.

Agree 100%. Those mid beam waves stirkes of any size are the worst for any vessel.

Sorry to here about the cereal and milk. What were you eating? Capt. Crunch?

Happy cruising

H. Foster

:lol:

hfoster said:

Sorry to here about the cereal and milk. What were you eating? Capt. Crunch?

Happy cruising

H. Foster

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:lol:

Five years ago I had our Tolly a bit outside GGB... in what's named the "Potato Patch" around here. Can get pretty darn rough in that area under some tide and swells/wind conditions.

Anyway - there were four of us aboard and up on the bridge as we passed through. Well... I was cruising on a slow plane (about 14 knots) and although our Tolly does have good stability and low COG due to deep in bilge twin engines and tanks she is a bit top heavy being tri cabin design. With conflicting beam seas she can list pretty well during a steep roll.

So... although I was having a fun time taking her through I suddenly realized one fellow had gone white as a sheet! Not green mind ya, like sea sick, but rather pale white, like scared shitless. After we were in calmer seas and not a word had come for some time from this usually chatty guy... there was a gentle tap on my shoulder. Wherein he asked, "How far can this boat lean before it tips over?" And I replied (meant as a joke), "It seems a lot further than you can go before you pass out." He was not amused. But he got over it!

As is often mentioned: Most boats can take more than passengers’ can handle!