How many hours before SMOH

Bay Pelican said:

Hours of use and age are not alone the important factors.

Marty

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Best statement made so far!

HOLLYWOOD

The Resilts so Far

This survey has not turned out the way I thought it would

1 Lehman SP135 7929 NMOH (no major overhaul)
1 Lehman 120 2000 NMOH
1 Volvo MD17D 2300 NMOH
1 Lugger 12000 NMOH

10 Opinions No facts
12 Subjective answers No facts

I want to thank the responders who actually gave facts it appears that SMOH's are not that big of a deal
Gregg

So, what did we learn here?

>So, what did we learn here?<

Yacht engines usually never get enough hours to actually wear them out.

They get Killed , Destroyed by lack of maint , especially maint before storage.

When put back in service a lack of maint on belts & hoses and fluids can cause early failure.

Wataworld said:

The Resilts so Far

This survey has not turned out the way I thought it would

1 Lehman SP135 7929 NMOH (no major overhaul)
1 Lehman 120 2000 NMOH
1 Volvo MD17D 2300 NMOH
1 Lugger 12000 NMOH

10 Opinions No facts
12 Subjective answers No facts

I want to thank the responders who actually gave facts it appears that SMOH's are not that big of a deal
Gregg

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I've chartered three boats with Lehmans. Two had 125s one was twin 135s. They had 11,000, 13,000, and 14,000 hours.
Some of these opinions and subjective response come from folks who work in the industry or have tons of experience. Me, I am a bone head You just have to take what you get and make your own "opinion". You may want to join boatdiesel.com.

Bay Pelican said:

Oil analysis of the engine for what wear is on the engine. If the oil is fresh avoid

Marty

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Oil analysis is a much over blown criteria. As you mentioned, the engine hang ons are something to carefully examine, IMHO they trump any findings from oil analysis. Why on earth would you walk away from a vessel where the oil is fresh?

Wataworld said:

The Resilts so Far

This survey has no facts
Gregg

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Once again, you cannot expect facts when the survey basis is the proverbial how long is a piece of string. One thing I can tell for a fact, none on this Forum will see a new engine die on them if book maintenance were rigorously adhered to.

Marlinmike said:

I know this will ruffle some old school Lehman guys, but just my opinion, if I had a Lehman coughing up blood, I’d prefer to replace with a nice new Deere then rebuild and replace all the parts around it. [/FONT][/COLOR]

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While I agree with you, in theory...if money were no object.... But, if it were my money and I was replacing a Lehman I would go with the plug-n-play replacement by American Diesel. it is just too easy.

And since the OP has decided to respond to me via PM instead of on thread, this is what I had to say:

You make it sound like overhauling an engine on a boat is as normal as changing the oil. The goal of most purchasers/owners is to NEVER have to overhaul or replace an engine. And when it comes to the point of having to overhaul, most people replace the engine since most engines are not sleeved....some people would call it "disposable"...and overhauling the engine IN THE BOAT would likely be just as expensive as just getting a new/rebuilt engine put in.

My boat has Cummins 6BTAs. The higher powered version(330hp). I would not purchase a boat with these engines with over 1000 hours unless I knew the complete history of the engines. These engines have certain items that need to be maintained over the life of the engine and if they are not, the engine will not make it to 2000 hours. They are good engines, but they need to be maintained and watched like a hawk....that is the high powered versions. The 210/220hp versions do not have aftercoolers and fuel coolers and generally are not put on boats where you need to run them hard(ie planing boats) so those will last forever. I know properly maintained high powered versions can get 5000 hours but I would not expect them to last much longer. The low RPM low horsepower engines(ie Lehman) will last forever and will last quite awhile even if neglected. If I were buying an older boat that was not a planing boat, my first choice would be Lehman 135. American Diesel makes a plug and play replacement for the Lehman that I am sure is a decent engine. If I were buying a "newish" boat(ie after the lehman era) I would go with Deere or Lugger....not a coincidence that Nordhavn uses both of those engines pretty much exclusively.

Sidenote....correct me if I am wrong, but I think Lugger is just a "marinizer" of John Deere engines???

Baker said:

So, what did we learn here?

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That a person this worried about engines should go sailing?

mahal said:

That a person this worried about engines should go sailing?

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I think ultimately, what we learned here is what I said up there. We do our due diligence so we NEVER have to replace an engine. That is the objective. And most of us(95%+) have succeeded in that endeavor.....hence the lack of data the OP is looking for!!!!!

"I would go with the plug-n-play replacement by American Diesel. it is just too easy."

Thanks for the insight, interesting, I'll have to look into that further.

mahal said:

That a person this worried about engines should go sailing?

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The whole purpose of this post is not to worry but rather prepare as all engines will fail at some point they are a consumable and require service internally in addition to externally! Not sure why you even posted did you have some thing to contribute or do you just like to see your name written!
Gregg

Buy the one with the Volvo-Penta! They are easy to spot! They are green! All others will break!

Is that what you are looking for?




PS: Not really! I just like to see my name written!

Wataworld said:

The whole purpose of this post is not to worry but rather prepare as all engines will fail at some point they are a consumable and require service internally in addition to externally! Not sure why you even posted did you have some thing to contribute or do you just like to see your name written! Gregg

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I've worked on & have rebuilt diesel engines most of my adult life & after reading thru this thread I wouldn't offer any opinion because that is all any of us has, the facts you desire may best be obtained by consulting the manufacturers but their response will be based on giving their engine proper use & maintenance from day 1. Good luck in your quest for facts.

If engine hours are that big of a concern I think you should a) buy a new boat or b) buy one ready for a re power. SMOH to me says at least a top end rebuild and more likely the bottom as well. Not an option on all diesels these days.

Sent from my iPhone

Usually accepted terms:

TTSN = Total Time Since New

TBO = Time Between Overhaul
could be; TBMO Time Between Major Overhaul or TBTO Time Between Top Overhaul

SMOH = Since Major (or TSMOH Time Since Major OverHaul)

STOH = Since Top OverHaul (or TSTOH )

IRAN = Inspected Repaired As Necessary

These are accepted terms in aviation but many folks use the same for industrial and marine logbooks as well.
My cousins Cat power on his dredge pumps logs often show:
TTSN 40,000, TSMO 20,000, TSTO 10,000. When he gets to that he knows it has run well and is due for another major. There will often be accessories that will have had some work done in between the big stuff. These engines run almost constantly and rack up the hours before hoses get old so a lot of the stuff we deal with gets changed at major overhaul. He has several dreges working in sand mines and goes through enough engines in a five year period to have a very good handle on cost per hour.

As others have noted. We just don't put enough hours on our engines to have meaningful data.

sunchaser said:

Oil analysis is a much over blown criteria. Why on earth would you walk away from a vessel where the oil is fresh?

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I misspoke. If the oil is fresh you cannot get an oil analysis that could reveal wear and contamination. If the owner can show recent oil analysis results I would feel more comfortable. If however there are neither records of oil analysis nor can a current one be done then I would be concerned that there is something that is being hidden - and I admit the current owner may not be aware of the problem but still a buyer should not have to take this risk.

Marty

Baker-yup-Northern Lights uses a JD block, that is, the block, cylinders/heads and fuel system as the base for its generators and Lugger propulsion engines. All else, manifolds and all the hang-ons, are their design. I have 2 JD 6068 TFM, 154 Hp, and 2 NL gens, 8 and 20kw. The engines have almost 3,000 hours and the gens 2,300 and 1,400 respectively, I would not trade them for anything. Not the first speck of trouble with any of them.

Baker said:

And when it comes to the point of having to overhaul, most people replace the engine since most engines are not sleeved....some people would call it "disposable"...and overhauling the engine IN THE BOAT would likely be just as expensive as just getting a new/rebuilt engine put in.

My boat has Cummins 6BTAs. The higher powered version(330hp). I would not purchase a boat with these engines with over 1000 hours unless I knew the complete history of the engines.

...

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FWIW, I dunno that I'd make such a blanket statement about overhaul versus rebuild. Yes, the Cummins B engines probably can't be done in place, yes the C engines could probably be done in place (given overhead clearance)...

But it's not always a big deal to yank an engine, do the machining, reinstall the engine. Depends on access, of course, but I watched our Cummins techs pull a C engine from a boat like ours... no muss, no fuss.

And when that's the case... maybe it's better to do the math a little closer...

-Chris

If I had a serious problem with my Lehman's I would consider new engines from American Diesel. I would also consider replacing them with one of Beta Marine engines. They marinize with readily available parts on Kubota or Iveco base engines. They will custom build engine mounts for your application. Kubota sells more 100 and less HP engines than anyone else. Iveco engines are in millions of trucks and machinery like skid loaders.

No relationship to the company. I just lust after a couple of their 75hp engines for my boat.

Marlinmike said:

I know this was an important number in the sport fishing world, as other posts stated DD run hard had a 2k-3k life span, so it was good to know when it was done last through documentation and inspection. In the trawler world not sure all the relevant, given the low HP required and typically "age" engine, I'd think replacement is a more cost effective way to go given all the peripherals needing replacement as well, I know this will ruffle some old school Lehman guys, but just my opinion, if I had a Lehman coughing up blood, I’d prefer to replace with a nice new Deere then rebuild and replace all the parts around it.

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Based on the performance of the John Deeres we added to our assistance towing fleet...I'd say that may not be the best idea...

Buying and rebuilding engines is a crap shoot....unless you are or the rebuilder is that 1 in a 1000 for being meticulous...including specing out EVERY part added...trouble could be just around the corner. I have had dozens of brand new engines fail from everything from hose clamps to turbos...new isn't always the right answer either.

A Lehman starter, alternator and heat exchanger, oil cooler and hoses can be had for less than $2000 bucks...doubt a new John Deere is anywhere's near that.

May want to define "coughing up blood" versus "I'd think replacement is a more cost effective way to go given all the peripherals needing replacement "...could be 2 very distant things.

Years ago I spoke to an officer from a Collins class submarine in dry dock for refit. He told me they rebuild the diesel engine, operate the sub a while, dock it again and strip and check the engine.
It all sounded a bit circular, like a never ending process,I wondered if he was joking, but these subs were/are a bit of a joke in the reliability department so I believe it, I guess with subs you can`t be too careful.
If you find a boat with engines being maintained, reasonable hours and no obvious engine dramas, they are probably good engines to have.

Wataworld said:

...they are a consumable ...

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Fuel is a consumable, the engine is a rotable.

... do you just like to see your name written!

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You know what they say about glass houses don't you?

A Lehman starter, alternator and heat exchanger, oil cooler and hoses can be had for less than $2000 bucks...doubt a new John Deere is anywhere's near that.

However JD does sell completer rebuilds of engines and some rebuilt parts at the Farm store.All carry a good warentee.


JD may and NL may both be purchasing their engines from a Jap earth moving source .

If you have a Ford Lehman and want to keep it, here's what a rebuild for 10K gets you after you remove it, ship to Gerogia and reinstall it.

REMANUFACTURED LEHMAN/FORD DIESEL: ENGINE REBUILD CONSISTS OF THE FOLLOWING*
Machine Work and Parts

Exhaust Manifold/Exhaust ElbowBore Block
Grind and Polish Crank
Reconditioned Connecting Rods
R&R Wrist Pin Bushings
New Pistons/Rings/Pins
New Main Bearings
New Rod Bearings
New Cam Bearings
New Cam Thrust Washers
New Front and Rear Seals
Remanufacture Your Raw Water Pump with Gaskets
New Fuel Lift Pump with gasket
New Circulating Fresh Water Pump with Gasket
New Thermostat and Gasket
New Valves
Grind Seats
New Injector Tips
Remanufactured Injection Pump
New Engine Oil Cooler
New Water Hoses (all)
New Heat Exchanger
New Oil Lines
New Starter

Engine Painted Red
*
*

Rick,

Is "rotable" a word?

Eric - Rick will be right with you .......but in the mean time Google can be your friend.

Anode said:

Eric - Rick will be right with you .......but in the mean time Google can be your friend.

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here you go...........

That's a very good price for all that, and that list is kinda what I had in my head, typically injection pumps are pricey.

Oh yea coughing up blood was excessive blow by, next time I'll be extremely specific in this forum as it appears there are plenty of snipers about.

Larry M said:

If you have a Ford Lehman and want to keep it, here's what a rebuild for 10K gets you after you remove it, ship to Gerogia and reinstall it.

REMANUFACTURED LEHMAN/FORD DIESEL: ENGINE REBUILD CONSISTS OF THE FOLLOWING*
Machine Work and Parts

Exhaust Manifold/Exhaust ElbowBore Block
Grind and Polish Crank
Reconditioned Connecting Rods
R&R Wrist Pin Bushings
New Pistons/Rings/Pins
New Main Bearings
New Rod Bearings
New Cam Bearings
New Cam Thrust Washers
New Front and Rear Seals
Remanufacture Your Raw Water Pump with Gaskets
New Fuel Lift Pump with gasket
New Circulating Fresh Water Pump with Gasket
New Thermostat and Gasket
New Valves
Grind Seats
New Injector Tips
Remanufactured Injection Pump
New Engine Oil Cooler
New Water Hoses (all)
New Heat Exchanger
New Oil Lines
New Starter

Engine Painted Red
*
*

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