Propane wall heater/moisture factor

Greetings again to the forum with a question-

Having reviewed past forums for information and not really seeing an answer to the following, I submit the question:

With propane the subject of moisture usually comes up and that it is a problem particularly in moist atmosphere, such as the Pacific Northwest/Alaska. Even so, the discussion seemingly revolves around the use for cooking and when heating is mentioned, there is little information as to how the difference is between heating and cooking.

I'd like to give consideration to a Newport wall mount propane heater. The question related regards the amount of moisture instilled from the heater vs. the exhaust going up the stack?
In cooking it is clear that the moisture created by the heat is from the open flame, in the heater it would seem the flame is contained and exhausted allowing the heat to flow. Am I missing a science factor here?

By the way, with our cooking propane stove, we do use joy on the windows,


Thanks for any explanation received.

Al Johnson-Ketchikan (Bridge to Nowhere) Alaska


Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the
craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you can't have
your kayak and heat it too.

Propane Heaters

Certainly must be 100% vented to the outside. That being said I would guess the moisture issue would be minimal if at all. Your Propane flame heats a metal heat exchanger that is vented outside.

We cook with Propane here at Red Dirt Ranch and do notice a slight increase in RH that we enjoy because it offsets the dryness from our sustainable wood stove.

When I purchase a boat I will want Propane or Diesel cooking, and Propane or Diesel forced air heat.

Al said:

Greetings again to the forum with a question-

Having reviewed past forums for information and not really seeing an answer to the following, I submit the question:

With propane the subject of moisture usually comes up and that it is a problem particularly in moist atmosphere, such as the Pacific Northwest/Alaska. Even so, the discussion seemingly revolves around the use for cooking and when heating is mentioned, there is little information as to how the difference is between heating and cooking.

I'd like to give consideration to a Newport wall mount propane heater. The question related regards the amount of moisture instilled from the heater vs. the exhaust going up the stack?
In cooking it is clear that the moisture created by the heat is from the open flame, in the heater it would seem the flame is contained and exhausted allowing the heat to flow. Am I missing a science factor here?

By the way, with our cooking propane stove, we do use joy on the windows,


Thanks for any explanation received.

Al Johnson-Ketchikan (Bridge to Nowhere) Alaska


Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the
craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you can't have
your kayak and heat it too.

Click to expand...

Thanks Big Jim, Let us see what else accumulates on the subject. A

The Newport style bulkhead mount LPG heaters utilize a double wall stack pipe. Combustion air and any waste heat are both dealt with in a single pipe. Since the flame is sealed off from the room being heated, any moisture exhausts out the stack.

Mine works fairly well for the area it serves. If I really wanted a great source of winter heat, it would be diesel fired instead of LP. The hydronic systems are the cat's meow.

bshanafelt- Thanks, this is inline with my thinking. As the boat is only 27 feet, space to mount is a huge issue. I have constucted a mockup for a oil heat Dickinsen wall/floor mount unit it really is not a comfortable fit. The smaller Newport propane is better suited mounting wise,
thank you for responding.
Al johnson

bshanafelt said:

If I really wanted a great source of winter heat, it would be diesel fired instead of LP. The hydronic systems are the cat's meow.

Click to expand...

Yup, forget about propane.

Propane, or even diesel radient heaters like the newport, or the Dickinson units might be good for certain applications but they take up wall space, and limit the heated area to what the heater is in.

I think in a smaller boat, heater that has the roomor an a supplemental heat source they might work well, but I would far and away prefer the diesel fired units. Seeing the flame might add ambiance to a boat, like a fireplace does to a home.

One of the challenges of propane is fuel. At 91,000 BTU per gallon a 10K BTu furnace will go through a gallon in 9 hours. Its easy to see that lugging fuel could become an issue quickly.

Opinions vary as to wether forced air or hydronic is the best, but in areas where heating of boats is commonplace, diesel is far and away the preferred fuel.

Having moved from a CDory to a trawler I recommend a forced air diesel heater like the Wallas or Airtronic (Espar). They can be installed just about anywhere, don't use much fuel or electricity, and are reliable with some annual maintenance, and with forced air heat can be moved where you need it.

Tom

Thanks to all, The boat has a Espar D3L furnace currently and currently it works. However, when I spoke with the Vancouver B.C. Espar dealership, I was advised for the most part, that the glow plug is about the remaining item available. Replacing the unit with the newer Espar model or another closely related gun type unit is an option yet, reducing the number of factors such as the reported cause of failure in these units is the condition of the house battery charge in terms of what the Espar demands causes grief is foremost.
With a wall or floor mounted unit the issue is muted. Fans on these units are not finicky as the Espar.
nor is the purchase price. Really want to increase the simplicty short of building a wood fire on the aft deck.
Perhaps a forum member can elevate some of my concerns by a descriptive narration of replacement of a Espar with a newer model or such.
Propane as a solution has been discarded. As well, a oil fired cook stove due to space constrictions. No, a Wallas will not be considered.
While I am limiting options here, the discussion is bearing direction.
Thanks again,
Al Johnson

One of the hassles with the old Espars is the factory was not honest with the starting amperage required.

This lead to folks using far lighter wiring than was required.

Add to that the setup was really for truck and bus use , 14+ volts most of the time , and starting problems were very common.

The burner nozzle and other items must be replaced when servicing the units , if they are not available , its scrap.

Al said:

Thanks to all, The boat has a Espar D3L furnace currently and currently it works. However, when I spoke with the Vancouver B.C. Espar dealership, I was advised for the most part, that the glow plug is about the remaining item available. Replacing the unit with the newer Espar model or another closely related gun type unit is an option yet, reducing the number of factors such as the reported cause of failure in these units is the condition of the house battery charge in terms of what the Espar demands causes grief is foremost.
With a wall or floor mounted unit the issue is muted. Fans on these units are not finicky as the Espar.
nor is the purchase price. Really want to increase the simplicty short of building a wood fire on the aft deck.
Perhaps a forum member can elevate some of my concerns by a descriptive narration of replacement of a Espar with a newer model or such.
Propane as a solution has been discarded. As well, a oil fired cook stove due to space constrictions. No, a Wallas will not be considered.
While I am limiting options here, the discussion is bearing direction.
Thanks again,
Al Johnson

Click to expand...

Replacing your old Espar with a newer Espar or Webasto should be a piece of cake installation.

I would not discount the Wallas too quickly, especially on a 27' boat.

I've had the Espars on several boats that size. The sound is like a jet taking off inside the boat. That might be a bit of an exageration but they are loud!

I cannot hear my Wallas furnaces, and I have three of them.

There is something to be said for peace and quiet.

Al, don't be so quick to dismiss the Wallas heater.

We had a Webasto HL-90 on our last boat- perhaps the loudest heater on the market when new. Sounded like an afterburner on an F-14...

On the new boat,no researched them all- forced air, hydronic, wall mount diesel, and even a wood burning fireplace. Since we are full time liveaboards, keeping g the interior dry is paramount. Cost, of course, is another factor to consider, as is installation and service complexities.

We decided on the Wallas based on the following:

-low amperage
-variable speed heater output to regulate temp vs cycling on and off
-self contained unit: the file pump is integrated in the unit vs Webasto and Esper
-dual heat outlets

In our mild temperature area (Puget Sound) we are going with a 40DT Wallas. Starting the install today.....

Pau Hana said:

Al, don't be so quick to dismiss the Wallas heater.

We had a Webasto HL-90 on our last boat- perhaps the loudest heater on the market when new. Sounded like an afterburner on an F-14...

On the new boat,no researched them all- forced air, hydronic, wall mount diesel, and even a wood burning fireplace. Since we are full time liveaboards, keeping g the interior dry is paramount. Cost, of course, is another factor to consider, as is installation and service complexities.

We decided on the Wallas based on the following:

-low amperage
-variable speed heater output to regulate temp vs cycling on and off
-self contained unit: the file pump is integrated in the unit vs Webasto and Esper
-dual heat outlets

In our mild temperature area (Puget Sound) we are going with a 40DT Wallas. Starting the install today.....

Click to expand...

A couple of hints I figured out on these units:

1. The furnace can be mounted either direction. Choose the direction where the components are to the front. This may sound like a no brainer, but with the cover on, you cant really see the components, so its tempting to mount the unit to make the inlet and outlet air easier to duct.

2. mount the heater with some space below the unit. The reason is that if you loosen the two screws on the lower sides you can drop the cover off of the unit, but it goes downward.

3. do not secure the fuel hose to the lower housing with the supplied adel clamp.

If you do these three things you'll have an installation that will be easy to service with the heater still installed.


Pete, if you have any issues or questions, I'd be happy to help. Im at work but have my cell.

ksanders said:

A couple of hints I figured out on these units:

1. The furnace can be mounted either direction. Choose the direction where the components are to the front. This may sound like a no brainer, but with the cover on, you cant really see the components, so its tempting to mount the unit to make the inlet and outlet air easier to duct.

2. mount the heater with some space below the unit. The reason is that if you loosen the two screws on the lower sides you can drop the cover off of the unit, but it goes downward.

3. do not secure the fuel hose to the lower housing with the supplied adel clamp.

If you do these three things you'll have an installation that will be easy to service with the heater still installed.


Pete, if you have any issues or questions, I'd be happy to help. Im at work but have my cell.

Click to expand...

Why don't secure the fuel line?....anything in particular?

Wallas Heaters

Pau Hana said:

In our mild temperature area (Puget Sound) we are going with a 40DT Wallas. Starting the install today.....

Click to expand...

That made me laugh, since I just finished installing two Wallas 40dT heaters yesterday. I've had Wallas heaters in several boats, including the dive charter boats I ran. We often had 14 dripping wet divers huddled in the Cabin between dives. I was always impressed at how well the heater was able to de-fog the windows by bringing in outside air and heating it.

I also loved how quiet the units were when operating since the fan speed and flame size are reduced to a whisper once the room is warmed up.

Some details and photos of the Wallas Diesel Heater install are posted at Wallas Diesel Heaters | Sea Eagle Blog .

Good Luck

psneeld said:

Why don't secure the fuel line?....anything in particular?

Click to expand...

If you secure the fuel line to the case, it creates a situation where you need to get a screwdriver underneath the heater to take out the screw to lower the case for service.

If you secure the fuel line externally then you can choose a method that makes for easy removal.

In securing the fuel line I'm mean strain relief, not the attachment of the line to the heater.

Boydski said:

That made me laugh, since I just finished installing two Wallas 40dT heaters yesterday. I've had Wallas heaters in several boats, including the dive charter boats I ran. We often had 14 dripping wet divers huddled in the Cabin between dives. I was always impressed at how well the heater was able to de-fog the windows by bringing in outside air and heating it.

I also loved how quiet the units were when operating since the fan speed and flame size are reduced to a whisper once the room is warmed up.

Some details and photos of the Wallas Diesel Heater install are posted at Wallas Diesel Heaters | Sea Eagle Blog .

Good Luck

Click to expand...

People do not realize. How quiet these units are. I was on a dock mates boat last week and asked,are you running your generator?

The reply was it was their furnace! The unit was a hurricane hydronic furnace and it was loud enough to be a bother during normal conversation.

toyo

As aside to this discussion, seeing the size and configuration of the Wallas D30 brought to mind that several years ago, Toyotomi stove had brought a marine model to the market. They sold like hot cakes here in Southeast. Then as though a light bulb burnt out, they were taken off the market. I mean off the North American market and right now!
Having seen the installations on several boats in our size rig, I would jump on one of those as there is a local dealer.
So, in the interest of inquiry sent the following to the Toyotomi American site:


"Could one receive the marketing reason that marine TOYO stove was discontinued to the North American market?

Never heard a bad word on the units, and dealers can not give a response that makes economic sense.
Ever person who had (As parts are not available changing out) one swore by them not at them.

My home is heated by laser 73, our guest home is heated by the next smaller size. In over 20 years, has to be that long, the 73 has cost no more that a couple of thousand in shop time.

Hence the question on the marine heater.
thanks, AMJ



A.M.Johnson

ksanders said:

A couple of hints I figured out on these units:

1. The furnace can be mounted either direction. Choose the direction where the components are to the front. This may sound like a no brainer, but with the cover on, you cant really see the components, so its tempting to mount the unit to make the inlet and outlet air easier to duct.

2. mount the heater with some space below the unit. The reason is that if you loosen the two screws on the lower sides you can drop the cover off of the unit, but it goes downward.

3. do not secure the fuel hose to the lower housing with the supplied adel clamp.

If you do these three things you'll have an installation that will be easy to service with the heater still installed.


Pete, if you have any issues or questions, I'd be happy to help. Im at work but have my cell.

Click to expand...

Excellent tips. Kevin- thanks!

Al said:

As aside to this discussion, seeing the size and configuration of the Wallas D30 brought to mind that several years ago, Toyotomi stove had brought a marine model to the market. They sold like hot cakes here in Southeast. Then as though a light bulb burnt out, they were taken off the market. I mean off the North American market and right now!
Having seen the installations on several boats in our size rig, I would jump on one of those as there is a local dealer.
So, in the interest of inquiry sent the following to the Toyotomi American site:


"Could one receive the marketing reason that marine TOYO stove was discontinued to the North American market?

Never heard a bad word on the units, and dealers can not give a response that makes economic sense.
Ever person who had (As parts are not available changing out) one swore by them not at them.

My home is heated by laser 73, our guest home is heated by the next smaller size. In over 20 years, has to be that long, the 73 has cost no more that a couple of thousand in shop time.

Hence the question on the marine heater.
thanks, AMJ



A.M.Johnson

Click to expand...

Several years ago as I was trying to solidify how I was going to build my business I opened up a marine heater business line. We were a Toyotomi marine dealer. I went to Toyotomi repair class as part of the dealer certification process.

The Toyotomi marine heater is a great unit, just like their home heaters. I sold dozens of them, and installed a few. I also acted as a repair center for them, and If memory serves correctly I probably even have a test bed to test them in my shop somewhere.

The only issue with the toyotomi marine units was, like their land cousins the simple fact that #2 diesel will coke them up pretty quickly. We had great success with them on smaller gas boats where the diesel tank was for the heater only. Then the owner could use #1 diesel or kerosene in them.

Put them in a larger boat burning #2 diesel and you'd have to tear them down once a season or so.

The Wallas is similar to the Toyotomi in that its a drip pot system with an air feed to keep things efficient. I'm not sure what Wallas did to keep their drip pot system from coking up on #2 diesel but they did a good job of it. This is in contrast to the Webasto, and Espar units which are a gun system with an air stream, much like a oil fired furnace or hot water heater.

The Toyototomi would cycle on and off, and adjust the burner rate to one of three output levels. Thats a very nice feature.

The newer Wallas controller is a bit different. It will infinitly adjust the burner rate to keep the temperature at the desired setpoint. The only caveat of that is that the minimum output is about 3100 BTU/HR.

Al said:

Great bit of Toyo information.
Yes, the #2 was an issue down here as well. As you indicated, and true here, the installations were in small gas pots for the most. There are a couple still running, and our local dealer has some parts, no mother boards so the runners are doomed.

It is being understood that the Wallas as these style units go, are the simplest and trouble free over all the others? Would a gravity feed work? Or do they require a pressure flow?
A small #1 fuel gravity flow tank on the house top will work for the Dickinson wall mount, were that the direction.

Still, do you know the reasoning behind the Toyo pull out of North America?
Al

Click to expand...

I don't know that the wallas are any more simple and trouble free than say a espar unit. They just have different features. As far as simplicity, it's hard to get simpler than the Dickinson units. We were also a Dickinson dealer but not a repair center.

As far as to why toyotomi pulled out, it was strange. They didn't announce anything. We put in orders to rural energy, the regional distributor and they would try to get them out of Japan but the units would just never show up.

We left the marine business and all retail sales not much later and just let the dealerships go stale. More money in wholesale trade, and we decided to focus on our industrial electrical lines.

Pau Hana & ksanders, plus the forum in general

Well boys, today I purchased a Wallas 30D from ScanMarine. Was comfortable with the amount of time Doug took to convince me the installation of the Wallas in place of the old Espar will be. On top of that he did not attempt to overload the extra required pieces to complete the installation.
We will be returning to Ketchikan next week and will begin the process of installation.
Thanks to the two of you and others on the forum that shared and encouraged this choice.
Regards,
Al Johnson

"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”
Jeff Cooper

Congrats! Bruce and Doug are top notch, and will walk you thru what you'll find is a very easy installation.

Hummmmmm Peter-Doug seemed to smile whinct I mentioned the "Trawler forum". On commission here to?????? (Smile-Humor
Al

hehehehe.....nope, nothing here. Scan Marine and Anchor Marine shared neighboring offices for years....i know the former owners of the business....