Fathom Yachts vs Nordhavn

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I really hate to get involved in this, but the point wasn't that the stabilizers tore the hull, the point was that he thought the hull appeared to be very thin. The stabilizers making the hole just allowed him to get a look at the hull thickness.

Bob
 
there will never be a load like a boat falling onto the cement on it's stabilizer....

I can't speak to the thickness or lay up of the Nordhavn hulls, but a 40 or 50,000# boat falling on its stabilizer creates a helluva point load. Concentrate that weight on a few square inches, and it will pierce almost anything.
 
Read the posts, nobody ever suggested that the stabilizer should have supported the boat. The whole discussion started because there was a hole in the boat allowing somebody to look at the thickness of the hull. How the hole got there was and is totally irrelevant.

Bob
 
Pretty tough to compare

Any thoughts or experiences? My particular curiosities include initial cost, and sea-worthiness/circumnavigating comparisons of the N40 and Fathom Element & Expedition models. Thanks for sharing any knowledge and opinion! :)

The Fathom is more of a coastal cruiser vs. a passage maker.

FYI, most likely any Fathoms you see going forward will be previously owned. I have been told be a very reliable and informed source that they are selling off the molds and tooling, and not necessarily to a single buyer with any intention to revive production. I thought the Fathoms were fine boats, but if you want to "circumnavigate" there are probably some designs a little more suited for that application.
 
Wasn't Fathom a collaborative effort by some big name trawler designers to create an "in-between" vessel?

Dave
 
Wasn't Fathom a collaborative effort by some big name trawler designers to create an "in-between" vessel?

Dave

I thought Fathom, like American Tugs, was started by ex-Nordic Tugs employees.
 
That 46 must have been repaired and returned to service. Not long ago on the Nordhavn Owners site there was an "inventory" of the 500+ boats placed in service so far. Only two are no longer in service. One grounded and has been slowly breaking up over the past several years on the Mexican Coast. The fact that is lasted as long as it did with constant hammering from surf speaks well for the hull construction. The other casualty was a tragic fire in Thailand that burned a boat to the water line. Both lost boats were 62s, but I don't think that signifies anything. There were several others badly damaged from various mishaps, but all have been returned to service.

Nordhavn's aren't perfect, just like any other boat. But when it comes to ocean-going power boats there really aren't very many boats built for the task, and up to the task. Of the few, I think the Nordhavn's cleanly stand ahead of the crowd. Others are capable, but I think every hour of every day there is a Nordhavn making a crossing somewhere in the world. I don't think any other manufacturer comes close.
 
The hull looked thin to us-compared to other boats. That's ALL I was saying. The "how" was not the issue! 46' Nordhavn.jpg

46'Nordhavn Fin.jpg
 
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Well, there are the photos.

I do believe that a few contributors to this thread might owe Blake an apology. I wish Io could find a little happy face thingie for eating crow. :blush:

I have to say that I thought the hull would be thicker as well!

What amazes me the most is how far fiberglass engineering has come from the early days of fiberglass boats. I remember seeing much thicker cross sections on the through hulls of old Hatteras, and the like.
 
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The more interesting thing for me are some of the pilot house guy's comments.

Having come from a sailing background and having been on a few POS morgan outhouse 41's as well as a Nordhavn 46 I can say that without any doubt I will take the Nordhavn over the Morgan for any serious passage making. Hell I'd take the kon tiki before the Morgan. I've seen Morgan's oil can in rolly anchorages. Doing 8 knots in an outhouse only happens when you are surfing in following seas. Those big fat flat transoms really are ill mannered when they get smacked in the ass, so good luck to you mate. I'll take the canoe stern on the Nordhavn thank you.

If you are familiar with Mason sailboats and their build quality I think you'll agree that the people at PAE actually know how to build a quality boat. Also if you are familiar with egret flats boats I think you'll find those to be of exceptional quality.
Via iPad using Trawler

The OI 41' was a tool for back when I ran charters (at 31-34 yro) from Miami to the Bahamas and Key's mostly with college kids from charters that Nancy from Florida Yacht Charters booked. It was nothing but a 'Checker cab of the sea's' which was perfect due to it's 4' draft, and it's thick excellent rubrail that allowed me to dock by braille in scruffy marina's and along seawalls over there. It's shallow draft also allowed it to surf quite well in following sea's, in addition of being able to bounce along sand bottoms! And since we were on timetables without regard to weather I would regularly ride North East winds back to Florida surfing down waves higher than the mizzen spreaders at 8.5 knots. Rode NW winds over where there were 20' waves rolling in between Gun Cay and Cat Cays. I remember one girl saying "I just got back from Hawaii, and didn't know they had waves like that in the Bahama's". With my heart in my throat watching outbound SF have waves break over their TOWER, I said "yeah, they do" (it was a surprise to me, but once committed, there's no turning around!!). I have nothing bad to say about the boats at all. Easy to clean, fast off the wind, big engine for going against it, easy to clean in and out. Several have done Trans-Atlantic races (note the photos). The MASONS built by PAE were all 6' draft's (weren't they?) and I don't remember any rub rails of note, and they certainly had too much bright work (teak decks too?) in and out for hoards of drunken college kids with their hard suitcases. The Morgan OUT ISLANDS were built for work. You never saw one ever "oil can"- you might have seen a Morgan built Nelson Marek do so. Those were thin boats that were raced. My POINT about the Morgan was that I was NOT "pushing mid range semi-displacement powerboats" as some accused. I happened to find myself in a sea of semi submerged 50 gallon barrels as the sun rose about 20 miles off Florida after a night of surfing down said waves with 5 kids sleeping down below for the past 7 hours! When I saw the aforementioned boat (note photos) it immediately reminded me of that morning decades earlier. I've never even had a wave slap the transom in following sea's -as the transom rose and waves passed under. Usually had the two windows open back there when engine off, as kids needed the breeze. They were great tools. I don't think you could kill one if you tried. I had a OI 51' get impaled (on her left side above the waterline) on a rock in St. Thomas during Hugo, and it had a hole in it big enough to drive a car through. Yet after the crane picked her off the rock-she was towed back to St. Thomas, patched back up, and went back in service with no problems. OTHER boats down there didn't fare as well.
Glad to meet you. How about a Cuban Coffee? A coffee and a ride through Earhart trails?!! whoop whoop.
Wanna see sailboats? Look at my pages of old print ads from the old days on my website. LOTS of sailboats. Lot's of everything.
 
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I would make a small wager that these are after market stabilizers installed on an older vessel. It would be interesting to know the FRP layup and design protocol that went into the install. It doesn't appear (hard to tell though) from the pics that the backing blocks bonded well to the hull layup, unfortunately not uncommon in an after market job.

On our DF48, the stabilizer blocks are about 18" on a side and 2" thick and installed during the hull layup, the preferred way to do it.

Without some dimensions it is hard to tell if the hull is thin or not, but no blisters are apparent! Thanks for the pictures, when were they taken?
 
The hull looked thin to us-compared to other boats. That's ALL I was saying. The "how" was not the issue! View attachment 23451

View attachment 23452

A boat's hull doesn't need to be thick to be strong..
Some manufacturers use cloth that is finer, has less density, have directional roving and a lower resin to cloth ratio.Vacuum bagging may also be part of the process and therefore the hull is lighter and....thinner!. Another manufacturer will use heavier mat (or gasp... chopped fiber) no vac bagging and have a thicker but inferior in strength to the thinner hull. Nordhavn actually puts the weight in ballast to make a safe, sea kindly hull.
I think the thing is that some of us .. or maybe it was just me, read that you inferred that the Nordhavn is somehow inferior because of the "thin" hull.
I have put my life at stake in a Nordhavn offshore at night for days on end in less than ideal conditions and I don't really care if the hull is thick or thin. I know it works as designed and built.

I used to be part of the drag boat racing world and we had hulls that weighed 400lbs and could withstand the torque of 4000 hp @ 250mph. If the hull was designed right all was well and it worked as it should. If the boat blew over it shredded into little tiny pieces. Just because it couldn't take the stress of a 200mph flip didn't make it a poor or inferior design.
HOLLYWOOD
 
I would make a small wager that these are after market stabilizers installed on an older vessel. It would be interesting to know the FRP layup and design protocol that went into the install. It doesn't appear (hard to tell though) from the pics that the backing blocks bonded well to the hull layup, unfortunately not uncommon in an after market job.

On our DF48, the stabilizer blocks are about 18" on a side and 2" thick and installed during the hull layup, the preferred way to do it.

Without some dimensions it is hard to tell if the hull is thin or not, but no blisters are apparent! Thanks for the pictures, when were they taken?

2009. At the yard across from Marine Liquidators in Ft. Lauderdale. Harry Schoels old yard. I just happened to be driving through to look at some repo's they had stored there- and saw this, stopped took photos- yard manager came out to ask me why. I told him "not a lawyer" gave him a business card, and he told me the story. I didn't post photos of her name, or the rest of the boat, just in case it's out there somewhere. Don't want to get depositioned if this boat was actually patched up and returned to service. Rather attention getting. I think you can measure the dimensions by the shaft of the stabilizer fin. It wasn't 6" inches wide! lol
 
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A boat's hull doesn't need to be thick to be strong..
Some manufacturers use cloth that is finer, has less density, have directional roving and a lower resin to cloth ratio.Vacuum bagging may also be part of the process and therefore the hull is lighter and....thinner!. Another manufacturer will use heavier mat (or gasp... chopped fiber) no vac bagging and have a thicker but inferior in strength to the thinner hull. Nordhavn actually puts the weight in ballast to make a safe, sea kindly hull.
I think the thing is that some of us .. or maybe it was just me, read that you inferred that the Nordhavn is somehow inferior because of the "thin" hull.
I have put my life at stake in a Nordhavn offshore at night for days on end in less than ideal conditions and I don't really care if the hull is thick or thin. I know it works as designed and built.

I used to be part of the drag boat racing world and we had hulls that weighed 400lbs and could withstand the torque of 4000 hp @ 250mph. If the hull was designed right all was well and it worked as it should. If the boat blew over it shredded into little tiny pieces. Just because it couldn't take the stress of a 200mph flip didn't make it a poor or inferior design.
HOLLYWOOD

I indeed said it was "thin". It looks thin to me. You're absolutely correct about a boat not having to be heavy to be strong, BUT we (me, yard manager, & some buddies of mine) were questioning where the weight of this boat is at, IF the hulls not thick?
As far as passage making. I recently sold a Wellcraft 43' Portifino, which is a cocktail Bay cruiser (what it was marketed as) and the buyer took her from Miami to Curacao on her bottom in Hurricane season non-stop (except for fuel of course) with no problems.
Back in the day, when I worked at Merrill-Stevens as a broker we had a yard full of seized drug boats out back. Several were big Carri Craft Houseboats (catamaran hulls) with gas engines that had delivered ton's of weed direct from Columbia to Miami non-stop running at pretty much WOT (so said one of the Captains) and one can argue neither the Carri-crafts OR the Wellcraft were designed to be passagemakers, but make passage they did. NOW I have respect for those marques because of what I saw, and know. I'm a big believer of what MY eyes see, and not what others tell me what they read. It's my experience, they're not the same.
I understand quality. I still own a 15' Hobie Power Skiff made of Kevlar. I bought her in 1988. It's still like new although it's been run hard it's whole life. Soon after purchasing, I shitcanned the 40hp Yamaha, and have been running it with a 90hp ever since. Light, thin, strong, but it was advertised as such, same as ALL the modern high performance boats like Contender and Intrepid. You ever looked at the weight of a Contender? And they have 3 or 4 outboards hanging off the back. Hatteras's are marketed as heavy boats, and they're so thick that they destroyed docks when Hurricanes picked them up and threw them on the street a quarter mile from the marina. I've never been able to look in one, but I've seen them gouged REAL deep, but never deep enough to be holed.
So I believe them, when they say they're heavy. There's plenty of photo documentation of them after Hurricanes (google up "Dinner Key Marina, Hurricane Andrew"). BERTRAM? There's plenty of photo evidence out there- of late model one's NOT so well built. Have I seen other boats that have fallen off jack stands? Yes, I have. I was surveying a 1939 NY 40'(model-not the length- MUCH longer)sailboat in Tarpon Springs that fell off the railway (broker told operator the draft was 6'- turned out to be 8') in 1982- and they picked her up with a crane, put her back on the railway, and she didn't even crack any ribs. Wood. Old. Just saying.:whistling:
 
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Looking at it again, the thin material is not the hull. The hull is underneath and has been bored for the stabilizer to fit through and a thin patch put over the whole thing on the outside. Goofy for sure. My 2 cents worth.
 
The pictures never show the hull thickness. The glass is delaminated from the blow and the shear runs at an angle inward and away from the camera. It is impossible to tell if I'm looking at 1/4" or 2". All that is visible is the outer layer of glass. May or may not be thin but the pictures are worthless in determining the facts.
 
Looking at it again, the thin material is not the hull. The hull is underneath and has been bored for the stabilizer to fit through and a thin patch put over the whole thing on the outside. Goofy for sure. My 2 cents worth.

Actually, looking at the photos it appears to be the hull to me. The curve of the hull, then the break, and a portion of the hull pushed inside, still attached to the stabilizer, possibly the build up block.

The pictures never show the hull thickness. The glass is delaminated from the blow and the shear runs at an angle inward and away from the camera. It is impossible to tell if I'm looking at 1/4" or 2". All that is visible is the outer layer of glass. May or may not be thin but the pictures are worthless in determining the facts.

You are right there, no references, make it difficult for us. We need to remember that the guy taking the photos wasnt trying to build a court case, he was merely recording his observations.

Even without references... From the photos, taking the stabilizer, and other visual clues into account, the hull looks thinner than I expected.

This is not saying the hull is not strong enough, only that it is thinner than my untrained eye would have expected.
 
Any Nordy's not return from an epic cruise because their hulls failed?
 
I have no dog in this fight!

But out of curiosity, I found these comments on Nordhavn hull design which should alleviate some of the concern about the quality of their construction. It still doesn't state hull thickness, but I like their description of the layup process and willingness to supply a sample.

"In all the years Nordhavns have been crossing oceans and circling the globe, there has never been a structural hull failure, even during a grounding. The N47’s hull is no exception and is heavily built of alternate piles of hand-cut, hand-laid fiberglass mat and woven roving on a ship-like frame. Five longitudinal stringers provide added rigidity, and the forward sections include extra laminates for protection in case of collision. If you have the opportunity of visiting one of Nordhavn’s offices, ask to see a sample of hull laminate. You’ll see why there has never been a failure in all these years."
"A close look at the gleaming, flawless gelcoat finish of the hull and superstructure will reveal the quality of the tooling and precise craftsmanship that has become the trademark of our P.A.E. yards. Stomp on the foredeck, and you’ll feel nothing but a solid structure beneath you. Open and close hatches, doors and ports, and you’ll swear you’re on a commercial cruise ship. Nothing flexes or moves unless it’s supposed to. There are no unnecessary seams or joints to invite water intrusion or gelcoat cracking."
 
Photoshop!

You're on Key Biscayne, I'm in N. Miami. Why don't we both go up to Marina Mile Boat Yard together, and ask the manager? It's been several years, and I would love to hear the definitive story with (another) witness again. Maybe they'll have photos? It was there quite awhile. While looking for the name of the yard on Marine Traffic. com- I actually see the boat in question sitting in the yard. Just proves how slow they are to update sat photos, as it was in 2009. It will give me a chance to visit Lil Red's for BBQ. What say you? Drive up to 135th St., and I'll drive us up in the 'rocket'.
 
Today I went up to Ft. Lauderdale, and lo, and behold said vessel IS still sitting there in the Marina Mile Boat Yard. They've just moved her off to the corner under the tree's. So for all who have an interest and wish to see her with their own eyes, she's still there. And indeed I did go to Li'l Red's for BBQ, black eyes, and collard greens- and it was very GOOD!
Looking at her again, now that initial shock is gone, the hull was only cracked and shattered about 5' up, and about 5' of either side the Stabilizer fin, NOT the whole port side. Still look's the same..took more photos, but they look just like the old one's but DO have some more showing the cracks.

There's ALL kinds of nice designs is all states of disrepair in yards along State Road 84. Especially in that yard on the South side of the draw bridge. It's packed with "dream boats"-as in you must be dreaming to think you can revive them. :>) Big beautiful Fexas design and several big (BIG) trawlers.
 
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Today I went up to Ft. Lauderdale, and lo, and behold said vessel IS still sitting there in the Marina Mile Boat Yard. They've just moved her off to the corner under the tree's. So for all who have an interest and wish to see her with their own eyes, she's still there. And indeed I did go to Li'l Red's for BBQ, black eyes, and collard greens- and it was very GOOD!
Looking at her again, now that initial shock is gone, the hull was only cracked and shattered about 5' up, and about 5' of either side the Stabilizer fin, NOT the whole port side. Still look's the same..took more photos, but they look just like the old one's but DO have some more showing the cracks.

There's ALL kinds of nice designs is all states of disrepair in yards along State Road 84. Especially in that yard on the South side of the draw bridge. It's packed with "dream boats"-as in you must be dreaming to think you can revive them. :>) Big beautiful Fexas design and several big (BIG) trawlers.

Now I'm curious Blake...

Just how thick is the hull of the N46 in the area of the hole.

The photos were great, but without a visual reference, its hard to tell.

BTW, I'm not all that interested in the hull thickness including the pad that supported the stabilizer, its the surrounding hull thickness that I'm looking for

Thanks
 
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You're on Key Biscayne, I'm in N. Miami. Why don't we both go up to Marina Mile Boat Yard together, and ask the manager?

Hey PK: Sorry I didn't respond to your post here, but I haven't really read the thread for some days. I'm known somewhat for doing Photoshop renditions of boats here and when I do a post, I'm often suspected of Photoshopping the images even if I didn't. It was my chance to yell "Photoshop" for something I didn't do, and I took my opportunity. It was purely a joke, and frankly, I hadn't considered that someone would actually go to the trouble of modifying a photo to indicate the thickness of a hull. Anyway, I live over in Longboat Key now, so doing the visit to Marina Mile wasn't an easy trip for me. It's have been great to meet you and hit a few high spots in Lauderdale.
 
Many posts ago I asked if this was the vessel that was damaged when it fell off the lift/stands? The question still applies, I can't believe a boat would float with a hole the size indicated by PHK.
 
Now I'm curious Blake...

Just how thick is the hull of the N46 in the area of the hole.

The photos were great, but without a visual reference, its hard to tell.

BTW, I'm not all that interested in the hull thickness including the pad that supported the stabilizer, its the surrounding hull thickness that I'm looking for

Thanks

Kevin, Not touching this again with a 10' pole! lol. The boat is still there in the yard so others who care more than me, can go answer how thick or thin it is themselves. It's been there for several years now. So it's definitely not back in service.

>>>>>Anyway, I live over in Longboat Key now, so doing the visit to Marina Mile wasn't an easy trip for me. It's have been great to meet you and hit a few high spots in Lauderdale.<<<<<<
We'll do it some day. Was looking forward to meeting a Manatee owner. They've long been favorite boats of mine. It's always fun to go boat yard prowling with another boater. No telling what we'll stumble across. Look forward to meeting you too.

Blake Edward Davis Jr.
 
>Any Nordy's not return from an epic cruise because their hulls failed?<

No but the smaller ones seem to need to go in large groups so mid ocean swimmers can make electrical repairs.

Sorta like a Harley ,a pickup ride is part of the deal.

The Nordy 40ish that was at our dock made it to Tahiti , after a years worth of new boat outfitting.

They shipped it home.
 
That is usually about the people not the boat.
Shipping home that is.
 
Ben they probably decided it wasn't much fun.
 
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