Lessons we learned at the Lido Show...

So, this week we ventured off of our mountain perch and down to Newport Beach to attend the Lido Boat Show. It was our first time stepping onto a lot of the boats we've been looking at and we found it incredibly valuable. Among the things we learned (in no particular order)...

1) We like a little bit bigger boat than we'd been eying. We'd been mostly looking at boats in the 40-45' range. Turns out we really prefer something a little bit bigger. Our favorite boats were all in the 48-55 foot range.

2) Grand Banks are gorgeous, but not for us. We walked on two Grand Banks, one in the mid-30 range and one just over 50'. Participating in this forum, the reverence that many people hold for these fine ships is obvious. While we thought they were well built and beautifully appointed, we just didn't love the layout. Not every boat can be for everyone and it turns out that we're not GB people.

3) If we could afford the Hi Star 52' Pilot House we would probably own one right now.

4) A Fleming 65 is the ultimate reward for a lifetime of hard work. Wow. I mean seriously 'wow!'

5) We've spent a lot of time looking at the Carver 450 Voyager. There were none at the show but, to our delight (and perhaps the ultimate chagrin of our pocketbook) there was a 530 Voyager. My 'admiral-in-waiting' absolutely fell in love. Something to be said for that. (we also walked on their upscale line, a 'marquis' that cost literally 10 times as much but that we liked less.

6) A lot of brokers are either idiots or assess... then there were a couple which we would be more than thrilled to work with. I imagine this is true with any relationship as personal as the person working to help fulfill your dreams. There are going to be few, and only a few, that make a perfect match. But right now there are two: an ex-stock broker named Alex and an older woman named Susan that we both felt comfortable with and though they don't know it they are vying for our future 10%.

7) We found that we definitely prefer a pilot house. The helm as part of the salon just wasn't a design that did it for us. Then, randomly, we ran into some friends at the show and they showed us their boat-- their boat was gorgeous, a 50-some foot off-shore cruiser with the helm in the salon. This worked perfectly for them.

8) Same idea on the cockpit configuration. We really love a set up where the swim step leads directly into the cockpit via a transom door with few or no steps. We walked a 49' Gulf Star that just didn't do it for us at all and the ladder leading steeply up was a big part of the reason why. But, again, they wouldn't make them if there weren't demand for them. Our preferences aren't informed in any way, save informed by what we prefer.

Anyway, these are just our stream-of-conscious impressions. I'm certain we will know more soon, but we had a blast making the trip down and about.

Shanty

Interesting thoughts Shanty, and very similar to my own views. Sadly, for most of us, money is an object, otherwise I too would be looking at the 45-50' range, as that big you can literally have exactly what you want. However, for most of us, a more modest size is mandated by the size of the pocket. But it is interesting hearing someone not yet (or presently) owning a boat, giving a fresh honest first impression.
Of course another downside to big, apart from initial price, is all other bills are also big, especially maintenance, fuel and berthing...

Shantyhag said:

Turns out we really prefer something a little bit bigger. Our favorite boats were all in the 48-55 foot range.


Shanty

Click to expand...

Don't know the southern west coast boating experience as to marinas, anchorages and mooring fields. But on the east coast the 48-55 foot range has definite advantages and definite disadvantages. The trick is to figure out which will be important to you. Few 55 foot boats can make the Great Loop or even more important do the Canadian canals. There are a number of mooring fields which limit boats by length. The majority of transient slips in marinas are for boats in the 36 to 50 ft range. These are some of the negatives in addition to cost of maintenance. The benefits of course are room to have everything you want on the boat, and likely a sea keeping ability which will be greatly enjoyed on the Pacific Coast.

Think hard about what you are actually going to do with the boat. Where and for how long you are going to take it on trips is important. Then ask owners of similar size boats the problems they have with using their boats in those areas. See if these problems will affect you.

Marty

Always thought I wanted a pilothouse....would if I always sailed with a crew and more round the clock...

On my last 2 trips saw that a 40 something with helm in the saloon and just 2 aboard (especially if a couple), and just 4-8 hr motoring stints...especially if one person does most of the driving... was a more user friendly setup.

I relate it to sailing when it's nippy or wet...some poor slob steers topside while the other(s) are munching popcorn and reading in comfort below...sure that's the extreme but I found it to be true of smaller pilothouse boats as well...you can be more isolated than you want to be....sure it depends...just make sure it's for you...

On a 50 and up..I would always try and have more people along so the isolated pilothouse may be more desirable.

We liked all the features you described.

The size, the pilothouse, the cockpit.

Boats that come to mind offhand with that configuration are:

Hatteras LRC
Defever 49
Bayliner 45
Bayliner 4788, Meridian 490 (same boat)
Sea Ranger
Nordic (my neighbor has a nice Nordic)
Canoe Cove
Delta also made a really nice semi custom boat.

These boats can be purchased, in great condition for between a low of around 100 going up to around 250, with the meridian 490 toping out the price possibly higher because they are newer.

Peter B said:

Sadly, for most of us, money is an object...
Of course another downside to big, apart from initial price, is all other bills are also big, especially maintenance, fuel and berthing...

Click to expand...

Too true, Peter. And for us too. (We're definitely hoping at this point that the improving housing market isn't exactly mirrored by the rebound of the used boat market. Thank goodness for returning equity!)

There is one marina that we've looked at here in SoCal that jumps exponentially in cost when one graduates from 42' to 43'. We haven't looked at many, so I can't say whether that's common or not, but the fact that bigger boats bring some bigger costs isn't lost on us (or, unfortunately, without regard).

Bay Pelican said:

Think hard about what you are actually going to do with the boat. Where and for how long you are going to take it on trips is important. Then ask owners of similar size boats the problems they have with using their boats in those areas. See if these problems will affect you...

Click to expand...

In this you are exactly right, Marty. We're still at the beginning of our research. As it happens, the couple that we ran into at the show, the couple with the beautiful offshore cruiser, told us there that they had a sailboat for three years that they used to do the Panama Canal. We hadn't given sailboats more than a passing thought because of the additional skill sets required, but their argument about costs hit home. Still not what we're thinking about, but it did make us pause. We have TONS more questions to ask and answer before we plop down any coin.

psneeld said:

Always thought I wanted a pilothouse...

On my last 2 trips saw that a 40 something with helm in the saloon and just 2 aboard... especially if one person does most of the driving... was a more user friendly setup.

Click to expand...

See, this is the sort of thing to which we need to give some weight. That isolation seemed a benefit of sorts, especially given that we are planning on living aboard. Having an extra space, even if it's only a few steps, that we could use to separate ourselves if need be seems like a real plus. But I hadn't considered the ramifications of long trips. I will say that, instinctively for both of us, we seemed to like the pilothouse idea better.

One boat we were on, and I can't remember exactly what it was, had an interesting layout: single helm on the flybridge and the space where a second helm would have been located in the pilothouse was instead used for one of the nicest galleys we saw that day. It was gorgeous-- and being chef/owners of a restaurant the galley is important to us-- but for some reason we couldn't really wrap our hearts around the single helm idea.

(One last question for any/all: is it Saloon or Salon? I've seen both and heard both, but is there consensus on which is proper?)

(Response from the Admiral-In-Waiting: "Yeah, but couldn't you just hang out in the pilothouse... pilothouses are sexy!" I'm probably not the only one who thinks that settles that.)

ksanders said:

We liked all the features you described...
The size, the pilothouse, the cockpit.

Click to expand...

Kevin, I'd be lying if I said that you hadn't helped us shape some of these preferences in just the short time we'd been communicating and reading your input here. We were truly hoping that the 4788 was going to be in attendance at the show. It wasn't, alas. The only Bayliner that we saw was "very small" (relative, I know) at 32ish feet.

One of the brokers we mentioned in the OP was sure that she knew of one in San Diego that we could explore. We were hoping to get to see one in Long Beach over the weekend, but the broker for that boat was too tied up in getting ready for the event to meet us. Understandable.

So we haven't yet had that pleasure. Your list does widen our scope a little bit, so thank you for that.

And thanks to all for their responses, both here and elsewhere. This forum and its participants are first rate!

The problem I have with most pilothouse boats over 45 ft. or so, is getting to the forward accommodations and the head. Most designs require you to go up stairs to the pilothouse and then down a circular stairway of 8 to 10 steps to the forward area. Most of these circular stairways are difficult to use especially for an old man who has to use the head about ever half hour.

They do this so they can have a huge midship master cabin, again something I don't see much advantage for. It is located under the pilothouse where it is difficult to get proper ventilation and light as it can't have an overhead hatch. I guess if you live in air conditioning all the time, it wouldn't matter.

Only the Kady Krogan's are consistent in avoiding this flawed design and a few others like the Bayliner/Meridian 490.

Ron

Shantyhag said:

5) We've spent a lot of time looking at the Carver 450 Voyager. There were none at the show but, to our delight (and perhaps the ultimate chagrin of our pocketbook) there was a 530 Voyager. My 'admiral-in-waiting' absolutely fell in love. Something to be said for that. (we also walked on their upscale line, a 'marquis' that cost literally 10 times as much but that we liked less.

6) A lot of brokers are either idiots or assess... then there were a couple which we would be more than thrilled to work with. I imagine this is true with any relationship as personal as the person working to help fulfill your dreams. There are going to be few, and only a few, that make a perfect match. But right now there are two: an ex-stock broker named Alex and an older woman named Susan that we both felt comfortable with and though they don't know it they are vying for our future 10%.

7) We found that we definitely prefer a pilot house. The helm as part of the salon just wasn't a design that did it for us. Then, randomly, we ran into some friends at the show and they showed us their boat-- their boat was gorgeous, a 50-some foot off-shore cruiser with the helm in the salon. This worked perfectly for them.

8) Same idea on the cockpit configuration. We really love a set up where the swim step leads directly into the cockpit via a transom door with few or no steps. We walked a 49' Gulf Star that just didn't do it for us at all and the ladder leading steeply up was a big part of the reason why. But, again, they wouldn't make them if there weren't demand for them. Our preferences aren't informed in any way, save informed by what we prefer.

Anyway, these are just our stream-of-conscious impressions. I'm certain we will know more soon, but we had a blast making the trip down and about.

Shanty

Click to expand...

Of course your wife is going to like the Carvers, and probably Sea Rays too for that matter, as they both were designed to attract the eye (and pocketbook) of the ladies. And the Carver Voyager series was a rip roaring success right out of the box. They were the first boat for many buyers, who quickly moved up into the 80' up range. It certainly brought people to the hobby for sure. HUGE inside is why. But to get that space, the design is "cab forward" (as they call it in the car design world) which is great for interior volume, but all that exterior bulk acts like a giant sail. Think empty can on the water in how they get blown about. For grins go watch somebody try to dock one with a beam wind-even with bow and stern thrusters. GREAT condo's at the marina with a floating dock, but perhaps not the best cruising boat. Not that many on your coast as they had to be trucked from Wisconsin on two trucks (hull on one-deck and superstructure on the other) then assembled at the dealers. Which leads to another issue that's very disconcerting to those running the larger one's out in the ocean. The noise the joint makes working. Unlike other boats that aren't assembled at the dealer, these boats don't have bulkheads or structural interior attachments between the hull and superstructure. ALL that open space? Like being in a trash can being hit by a baseball bat=with the concussion of air being compressed as it hits waves. I've had professional Captains just flat out refuse to do a delivery on one offshore due to their previous experiences. The noises they make are just too disconcerting. Very weak gel-coat too! The best mechanic at Sun Power Diesel in Ft. Lauderdale, put's on a life preserver during a survey- if the chop is more than 3'. It's more a statement to his opinion of the boats than an actual safety concern, but he isn't shy about making his opinion known when buyers ask him why.
As far as Brokers.. I would think you want one that knows boats, that's taken about every design there is through a survey or five, and can tell you the history of the designs when new. Yeah, they might be asses, especially at a boat show because they've probably heard every question and statement a hundred times (I seriously quit going years ago, out of fear I was going to cut somebody's throat if I heard "I'm buying when we win the lottery" one more time!) or more. There's some excellent long time brokers down in San Diego, and up the coast from Newport. Hire one to be your advocate-and broker. These people that become brokers after failing at other careers really don't know much. It takes TIME and experience to cull the truth from the fallacies of the boat world. It's been my experience that the most ornery guy (especially in the boat yard!) is the most knowledgeable. Beware the glad handler you know.
Listen to Kevin Sanders- he know's what he speaks about Pilothouse boats.
Good luck!!
Oh=DOCKAGE. That should be your first question about boating out there. Where, and how much? I sold a 65'er to a fellow in Newport 12 years ago out of Hong Kong, and he discovered there was no dockage there as the ship approached, and had to buy a house to dock her. In hind sight that was a smart investment- the boat? Not-so-much.
There's TWO 4788's in Newport Beach for sale. One is right behind Ardel's office.

I'm 4,000 miles into the great loop and spend a lot of time with people who use their boats all day every day. My impression is that the pilot house folks really love the design. When you live on a boat, the ability to get away from each other is as important as seaworthiness. The layout also tends to work well for indoor entertaining. While I really like my double cabin, flybridge, lower helm in the saloon design, I can certainly see the appeal of the pilot house.

I urge you to have a clear vision about how you will use the boat. The beautiful boat with the large interior is often a horrible choice for long range cruising. Conversely, a perfect LRC can be an awful dock queen.

I grew up in Southern California and have boated there. I have cruised the San Juan Islands, Caribbean, and now the east coast, Great Lakes, and the river system. For those of you in SoCal,I mean no offense, but you have nowhere to go. Weekends in Catalina can get old fast. I mention this because, in my opinion, as live aboards your boat isn't likely to move often or far. With that in mind, I would make comfort the primary objective.

If on the other hand you are looking to do long range cruises, then consider spending time with folks that use their boats that way. Have your Admiral talk to the women who cruise. What they want in a boat changes a lot once underway. They will be happy to have you aboard and share their experiences.

Best of luck, fair winds, and have fun,
Arch

Nice touch, Arch. Greatly appreciated.

Greetings,
Mr. Art. I agree...But, but...where's the thread creep????

Also, PHK, your advice on Brokers didn't fall on deaf ears. Experience is a huge must, absolutely.

I will tell you that the only time we heard the 'Lotto' joke, and we heard it all day long, was from Brokers. It's one of the things that annoyed us to no end. Perhaps they were just being preemptive?

We have a Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge that we bought after looking at many boats for many years. And no, I'm not put off by your comments about not liking the SR's you looked at. No one boat meets/fits everyone's needs/wants/desires. The 550 is definitely NOT a long range cruiser, the biggest limitation being fuel capacity (700 gallons).

That being said, it's a good coastal cruiser which is what we wanted. It rides well in a 5'-6' wave, but when the wind is howling it can be a wet ride.

In June of this year I helped take a Bayliner 5788 from Seattle to Stockton, CA. While out in the Pacific (12 miles offshore) we were in 4'-7' waves and I was amazed at how much the boat rolled around in those waves. It felt like a cork on top of the sea, compared to mine. I asked the owner of the boat how much it weighed and, while I don't recall its dry weight, I do recall thinking it was about 10,000 pounds lighter than mine.

We have dual helms in our boat and I like that. I drive from the upper helm about 98% of the time, only using the lower helm when it's over 100* or near freezing temps. It's nice having the option.

We bought our boat in MI and had it shipped (two trucks, two trailers) from there to Portland, OR to be reassembled and additional equipment added. If you have any questions specific to the shipping, fire away or PM me.

You're going about your future purchase the right way. I have one main rule I give to people looking at buying a boat for the first time....
"Buy your second boat first."

By that I mean that many people don't do their due diligence and buy a boat because it's pretty rather than buying one that will fit their needs. They use it for a year or two then trade it for what they should have bought in the first place....usually at a great expense.

Carvers, Bayliners and their cousins are great for shorter trips and enjoying the dock. If you have a desire to go anywhere beyond SoCal you may want to consider vessels that have long range capability and smaller less maintenance cost engines. Sooner or later range and low gph may become important to you.

sunchaser said:

Carvers, Bayliners and their cousins are great for shorter trips and enjoying the dock. If you have a desire to go anywhere beyond SoCal you may want to consider vessels that have long range capability and smaller less maintenance cost engines. Sooner or later range and low gph may become important to you.

Click to expand...

Really?

My 4788 Bayliner holds 440 gallons of fuel.

At 9 knots I get a measured 1.5NMPG

At 8 knots I get a measured 1.75NMPG


With a 20% fuel reserve that equates to over 600NM of range at 8 knots, and over 500NM at 9 knots.

There is nowhere in North America that requires more than what, 250NM of range to complete.

If we make the limiting factor accurate weather forecasting, 72 hours is generally accepted as the 100% weather window. At 8 knots thats 576 NM. So, even if you needed the range (which you do not) my boat has the capability to cruise at displacement speed for over the 72 hour accurate forecast window.

There are allot of great things about Full displacement boats, such as generally the ability to travel on days that a SD boat might choose to stay at the dock. This is not so much as a safety issue, as a comfort issue. The simple fact is that most Full Displacement boats will be comfortable in rougher conditions.

On the other hand a faster boat can allow someone leave port and make it to the next port, inside a shorter duration weather window. For example, lets take a typical run up the coast of 100NM. There's a weather front moving in tonight. We both leave the dock at say 08:00 AM. At 8 knots the Full displacement boat will be there at 8:30PM. The Semi displacement boat at 15 knots will be there at 2:45PM, in plenty of time to make safe harbor before dark, and before the weather moves in.

The same concept applies to general travel on the west coast. Its well known that the winds pick up in the afternoon, and the seas can get really snotty, just from "sea breeze" in many locations. Well, with a little speed, you can leave the dock at a reasonable hour, and be tied up having a cocktail while your friend in the Full Displacement boat is braving the big seas.

But, lets remember one thing...

If the OP's goal is coastal cruising, any boat he, and his admrial picks will have the fuel range to go anywhere they want to go. They have to decide what their actual goals are, and pick the best boat for them to meet those goals.

Just being a wanker....

from Great Loop notes....

Our fuel concern: Our fuel concern involves two key Marina locations on the Great Loop.
The first one of course is Hoppies Marina which is located at mile 158 on the Upper Mississippi River. If Hoppies
were to close, then the 250 miles distance between fuel becomes 320 miles from Grafton Landing to Green Turtle
Marina on the Tennessee-Tombigbee route.
Furthermore, If Hoppies closed, it would add another 440 mile leg between fuel stops on the Lower Mississippi River
route, as the distance between Grafton on the Upper Mississippi River and Mud Island Marinas at Memphis on the
Lower Mississippi River (Mile Marker 735.8) is 440 miles. The same distance between fuel from Memphis, TN and
the very only and next Marina (Seabrook Marina) on the Gulf ICW.
Bobby's Fish Camp is another concern. Bobby passed away lin 2010. His daughter is now trying to keep the camp
going. If Bobby's stops selling fuel, this adds a distance between fuel stops on the Tennessee-Tombigbee route of
370 miles between Demopolis Yacht Basin and Eastern Shore Marina at Fairhope, AL or Dog Bay Marina in Mobile
Bay. Therefore, these two rather isolated fuel stops are the reasons we highly recommend a 400 mile cruising range,
along with calling ahead. We obviously love both these locations and the people (Lora at Bobby's and Fern at
Hoppies) but still, under the circumstance combined with current economic conditions, we feel that marine fuel at both
these locations could become unavailable


Really though...those distances are probably why I'll never do the Great Loop...if it's that far between fuel stops...how far is it between FUN stops?????

psneeld said:

Just being a wanker....

from Great Loop notes....

Our fuel concern: Our fuel concern involves two key Marina locations on the Great Loop.
The first one of course is Hoppies Marina which is located at mile 158 on the Upper Mississippi River. If Hoppies
were to close, then the 250 miles distance between fuel becomes 320 miles from Grafton Landing to Green Turtle
Marina on the Tennessee-Tombigbee route.
Furthermore, If Hoppies closed, it would add another 440 mile leg between fuel stops on the Lower Mississippi River
route, as the distance between Grafton on the Upper Mississippi River and Mud Island Marinas at Memphis on the
Lower Mississippi River (Mile Marker 735.8) is 440 miles. The same distance between fuel from Memphis, TN and
the very only and next Marina (Seabrook Marina) on the Gulf ICW.
Bobby's Fish Camp is another concern. Bobby passed away lin 2010. His daughter is now trying to keep the camp
going. If Bobby's stops selling fuel, this adds a distance between fuel stops on the Tennessee-Tombigbee route of
370 miles between Demopolis Yacht Basin and Eastern Shore Marina at Fairhope, AL or Dog Bay Marina in Mobile
Bay. Therefore, these two rather isolated fuel stops are the reasons we highly recommend a 400 mile cruising range,
along with calling ahead. We obviously love both these locations and the people (Lora at Bobby's and Fern at
Hoppies) but still, under the circumstance combined with current economic conditions, we feel that marine fuel at both
these locations could become unavailable


Really though...those distances are probably why I'll never do the Great Loop...if it's that far between fuel stops...how far is it between FUN stops?????

Click to expand...

I'm no great loop expert, but we can what if, this thing to death, on what if this and this marina closed.

Not to digress though, but my comments were regarding ocean boating, so im sure you are just having fun

psneeld said:

Just being a wanker....

from Great Loop notes....

Our fuel concern: Our fuel concern involves two key Marina locations on the Great Loop...

Click to expand...

Psneeld, THIS is where the thread creep begins, but I have a completely irrelevant question (so apologies to all): Isn't the GL typically done cruising the Atlantic coast north and then with the river currents south?

The reason I ask, of course (and this may be incredibly naive), is that one would think that fuel economy would be fairly dramatically benefited by favorable currents.

Is this not the case?

ksanders said:

Really?

My 4788 Bayliner holds 440 gallons of fuel.

At 9 knots I get a measured 1.5NMPG

At 8 knots I get a measured 1.75NMPG

[etc]...

Click to expand...

LOVE the numbers, Mr. Sanders. Thank you for breaking those out.

psneeld said:

probably why I'll never do the Great Loop...if it's that far between fuel stops...how far is it between FUN stops?????[/SIZE][/FONT]

Click to expand...

The exact reason I don't care to do the Great Loop. I was in Quebec and Ontario a couple of weeks ago. I do plan to go up and do the canals either in one of our trailerable boats or a rented boat.

Maine is where I have my sights set for future cruising. Short distances between fun stops.

ksanders said:

Really? My 4788 Bayliner.

Click to expand...

Yes we know Kevin, you have a Swiss army knife for a boat and really know your stuff. But a line needs to be drawn - 55' Carvers, Bayliners, Marquis, Meridians, Ocean Alexanders and Searays are built with very large engines not designed to be run day in and day out at 1200 or 1400 RPM. Further, the cost to maintain a pair of 500 to 800 HP engines is a heck of lot more than very much smaller engines normally installed in a trawler.

For the OP, by all means consider one of the big engined boats, but beware of the upkeep costs for an engine you will never need or use for its intended purpose. Price out the 1000 hour servicing on a 650HP MTU if you want an eye opener. Or Cat C18 or Cummins QSM for that matter. Great engines all but lets not let the OP think he can efficiently run a big motor at a few hundred RPM above idle all day as he cruises at 8 knots.

ksanders said:

I'm no great loop expert, but we can what if, this thing to death, on what if this and this marina closed.

Not to digress though, but my comments were regarding ocean boating, so im sure you are just having fun

Click to expand...

Hey I'm the knucklehead that everyone gasped at when I reduced my fuel capacity from 400 gallons (1200nm range) to 116 gallons (325nm range)...

So I tend to agree with you that these long ranges are great for those that may do those kind of legs..but I know where I'm going for the next 20-30 years and I doubt that I''ll need much more than that 300nm and if I do I'll carry a 55gal drum/bladder on deck for another 150nm range if need be.

In the mean time I enjoy a new, clean, easy to observe quantity and quality of fuel that's easy to manage, provided double the storage room in the engine room...etc...etc..etc

No I was just messin' with yambut I'm sure someone else would have posted it or protested your line of thinking.

sunchaser said:

Yes we know Kevin, you have a Swiss army knife for a boat and really know your stuff. But a line needs to be drawn - 55' Carvers, Bayliners, Marquis, Meridians, Ocean Alexanders and Searays are built with very large engines not designed to be run day in and day out at 1200 or 1400 RPM. Further, the cost to maintain a pair of 500 to 800 HP engines is a heck of lot more than very much smaller engines normally installed in a trawler.

For the OP, by all means consider one of the big engined boats, but beware of the upkeep costs for an engine you will never need or use for its intended purpose. Price out the 1000 hour servicing on a 650HP MTU if you want an eye opener. Or Cat C18 or Cummins QSM for that matter. Great engines all but lets not let the OP think he can efficiently run a big motor at a few hundred RPM above idle all day as he cruises at 8 knots.

Click to expand...

swiss army knife. Thats too funny , but I agree, every Semi Displacement boat is a swiss army knife.

I agree with you about engine maintenance. The cummins 330 engines we have need their aftercoolers serviced. Other than that, its about the same as any other engine.

I also agree that you will get somewhat better fuel economy with a engine thats sized for displacement cruising. How much better is a number thats been often argued about here on TF.

As far as running the Cummins 330 at low power settings, To paraphrase, Mr Tony Athens, of boatdiesel.com, he has never seen a Cummins engine die from running at low power settings.

I, and every SD boat owner have a boat that can go slow comfortably. It can go fast comfortably. It gets reasonable fuel economy. It is good at almost everything, and really not the best at any of them. So I guess, yes, swiss army knife, or jack of all trades, master of none if you will.

Your Full displacement boat, and all FD boats, are more specalized. They get excellent fuel economy. Excellent rough water travel, excellent long range.

To be excellent at those things, they/you give up the ability to go faster, if the owner wants to, for any reason a owner might want to.

You know this though. You have a great boat.

The OP can digest all this good honest information and make a choice of what fits his life, his family, his available cruising time, and his cruising needs. Those things will help him make a informed decision about the boat that best fits his needs.

pilothouse king said:

Of course your wife is going to like the Carvers, and probably Sea Rays too for that matter, as they both were designed to attract the eye (and pocketbook) of the ladies. And the Carver Voyager series was a rip roaring success right out of the box. They were the first boat for many buyers, who quickly moved up into the 80' up range. It certainly brought people to the hobby for sure. HUGE inside is why. But to get that space, the design is "cab forward" (as they call it in the car design world) which is great for interior volume, but all that exterior bulk acts like a giant sail. Think empty can on the water in how they get blown about. For grins go watch somebody try to dock one with a beam wind-even with bow and stern thrusters. GREAT condo's at the marina with a floating dock, but perhaps not the best cruising boat. Not that many on your coast as they had to be trucked from Wisconsin on two trucks (hull on one-deck and superstructure on the other) then assembled at the dealers. Which leads to another issue that's very disconcerting to those running the larger one's out in the ocean. The noise the joint makes working. Unlike other boats that aren't assembled at the dealer, these boats don't have bulkheads or structural interior attachments between the hull and superstructure. ALL that open space? Like being in a trash can being hit by a baseball bat=with the concussion of air being compressed as it hits waves. I've had professional Captains just flat out refuse to do a delivery on one offshore due to their previous experiences. The noises they make are just too disconcerting. Very weak gel-coat too! The best mechanic at Sun Power Diesel in Ft. Lauderdale, put's on a life preserver during a survey- if the chop is more than 3'. It's more a statement to his opinion of the boats than an actual safety concern, but he isn't shy about making his opinion known when buyers ask him why.
As far as Brokers.. I would think you want one that knows boats, that's taken about every design there is through a survey or five, and can tell you the history of the designs when new. Yeah, they might be asses, especially at a boat show because they've probably heard every question and statement a hundred times (I seriously quit going years ago, out of fear I was going to cut somebody's throat if I heard "I'm buying when we win the lottery" one more time!) or more. There's some excellent long time brokers down in San Diego, and up the coast from Newport. Hire one to be your advocate-and broker. These people that become brokers after failing at other careers really don't know much. It takes TIME and experience to cull the truth from the fallacies of the boat world. It's been my experience that the most ornery guy (especially in the boat yard!) is the most knowledgeable. Beware the glad handler you know.
Listen to Kevin Sanders- he know's what he speaks about Pilothouse boats.
Good luck!!
Oh=DOCKAGE. That should be your first question about boating out there. Where, and how much? I sold a 65'er to a fellow in Newport 12 years ago out of Hong Kong, and he discovered there was no dockage there as the ship approached, and had to buy a house to dock her. In hind sight that was a smart investment- the boat? Not-so-much.
There's TWO 4788's in Newport Beach for sale. One is right behind Ardel's office.

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I knew we were gonna get into Carver bashing on this thread. First off PHKing, Some very good advice in there. I am not going to refute any of it. But I do find it ironic that this is coming from a Meridian owner....a manufacturer that had to change it's name to escape from the poor reputation propagated by rumor/lore....and here we are spreading "lore" as to the seaworthiness of a Carver....

I will say that I went into my Carver purchase with very low expectations based on all of the "lore" I had heard about....yes, even from a surveyor friend. And I will say that I have been nothing but pleasantly surprised. While there are access issues(any 35ft boat with twin engines will have them), I have yet to find myself scratching my head wondering "why the hell did they do this???"... So, instead of focusing on the negatives of buying an American built mass produced boat, let's focus on the positives:...and these are just the ones that come to mind.....

Factory support!!! Ask your fellow Taiwanese Trawler owner(Marine Trader,etc.) what kind of factory support they have!!! They even have websites you can go to to get a vendor list so you may not even have to call them to get what you are looking for. But if you do have to call them, a regular upper midwest average Joe will answer the phone and be quite helpful. He can tell you how your boat left the factory...shaft sizes...engine serial numbers....prop size and pitch...etc.!!!! He can assist you in finding a part that you are having a hard time finding. Anyway, you get the idea.

Standards. Yes, these boats are built to a standard. Namely ABYC and NMMA. Heck, my boat even has a "Yacht Certification" placard(my Mainship had one too)....this whole time I had no idea that I was "yachting"!!!.... I don't mean to make light of this. Some people will argue that ABYC is a base standard or whatever, but a standard nonetheless and things are done the way most professionals agree they should be done....wiring...fuel systems...plumbing systems....to minimize those "why did they do that" head scratching moments.

Operator's manual! REALLY???....Really!!! As an airline pilot, we love manuals. And I was quite surprised with the thoroughness of the manual for my boat. So much so that I thought to myself...."How does the ignorant dumbass that buys these type of boats understand this???". I am being somewhat facetious here but There are some things in there that are likely well over the head of the average first time boat buyer.....very unlike the stereotypical dumbing down to the level of the ignorant rich dumbass that would buy a boat like this....again...tongue firmly in cheek. I am talking wiring diagrams. I am talking system schematics. It is similar(not quite as technical and is dumbed down a bit) to an airplane manual and I love it!!!

Engineering. I have flown American made aircraft and I have flown aircraft engineered in Europe. American engineering just makes sense. It is usually straight forward...usually at least slightly "over-engineered". I am not saying it is better...but it is!!!! Where Americans will put another hydraulic pump...Europeans put an accumulator....etc. You get the drift. I know this is somewhat abstract, but when I look at my boat's systems, it all makes sense...Straight forward...no short cuts!

American sourced parts. Most parts are made right here in America and can still be found right here in America. I was looking into updating my battery charger to one that has an AGM setting for my new AGM batteries. The installed charger on my boat is a Charles 80 amp charger. I had a heart attack when I priced it so I think I will stay with the OEM one(which Odyssey says is fine). Charles is one of the best battery chargers out there....who says Carver cheaps out???

These are just a few things that come to mind. I have been wanting to do a write up on this and this is what has been banging around in my head so out it came on this thread.

To the OP, I hope this is helpful in some way. Ultimately the best advice, as many people have said, is that you have to be absolutely honest with yourself in how you will use the boat. There are dreams...and there is reality. Where those two meet, is where the perfect boat is.....

The Voyager series of Carvers are nicely laid out boats. The ones that interest you are usually powered by Cummins 6CTA engines which are good engines and not terribly expensive to maintain(relatively). You can get parts just about anywhere in this hemisphere. They can be thirsty if you run up on plane.

First of all, I'm not bashing anything. I'm telling what I've seen with my eyes, experienced myself. I'm a Broker here in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale. I see LOTS of boats, LOTS of boatyards, and have personally LOOKED INTO boats forensically after storms. I have a clue. I could tell you about Nordhavn's, Grand Banks, too if you need to know. I know WAY more than I ever wanted to know about many boats and especially Fountain 48's! Pretty much every boat on those old print ads sold, so I went to their surveys, some over and over and over (as buyers bought, and resold them).
On my link here, you can see 20 something pages of old full page print ads. I know what I speak. I'm not making this up. I'm happy as heck to sell a Voyager IF it fit's the bill for a clients purpose and
have sold several Carver Voyagers. I've taken them through surveys, I've paid $10k out of MY pocket to fix one afterwards. I've added bow and stern thrusters to them, and they STILL were a handful to dock in a wind. One one, I paid to have EVERY screw in the rubrail changed to flat because the curved one's caught pilings. My money. I remember all to well MY money expenses. Back when there was a Carver dealer here in Miami, we WOULD watch them try to dock them in Dinner Key Marina-for grins. I regularly had to pay workers to wet sand, and buff the gel coat on two year old boats, and always had to paint the black air intakes. I'm convinced the gel coat is a prime reason that Carver went Bankrupt in 09, to "wash away the warranties" and lawsuits. Carver said "sun damage" but I watched a 530 come out of winter storage in Cheybogan Michigan, where it lived since new, and it's gel coat was just as cooked as one that lived in Florida, so it wasn't the sun!!! It was a latent defect of construction. You do know they went Bankrupt don't you? Ask any former Carver dealer about that! Especially the one there in Texas.
I hired a Captain to bring me a 570 from New York for the Miami Boat Show, and we couldn't show her when she arrived. She wasn't in a hurricane, just took a beating offshore, and the Captain refused anymore Voyager deliveries. I had another client, who's wife was stuck in the head of a 450 for hours offshore when the door seized up from working offshore, and she had to be cut out with an ax.
I have PHOTOS of the hull and deck on different trailers. I leave it to you to prefer a boat finished in a factory vs finished at a dealership, where-ever that was- by whomever was working there. I know that I started in this business as a 21 yro in a New Orleans boatyard commissioning boats for OJ Young, and can tell you I personally fked up some new boats because I had ZERO supervision or training. "Yard monkeys" I believe we were quite correctly called.
I know nothing about the smaller one's. I don't believe the original poster here was inquiring about smaller boats. They could be the best thing since sliced bread-don't know.

As to why Brunswick changed the name from Bayliner to Meridian. All I can tell you was that they charged the new Meridian dealers WAY more for the boats than they did the previous Bayliner dealers, and the retail prices were WAY more for a Meridian than a Bayliner of the same size/model. So I'm guessing they did it to put more money into THEIR pockets. It didn't fool anybody on the Pilothouse models. I'm thinking it was a giant corporate mistake like "New Coke". Proven by the fact that by 2008 Meridian was "moved" to Florida where they built only flybridge sedan boats that look more like Sea Rays, than anything else. Same molds? Don't know. The big one's haven't been selling well, and buyers WISH they would build the pilothouses again. Big demand for Pilothouse's- not any demand for sedan bridges. Again, probably for their profit margins their CORPORATE motives.
Let's talk RESALE values. In 2000 you could NOT buy a new 450 Voyager with a sack of cash for under $800k. FACT. You COULD buy a 2000 Bayliner 4788 for $365k. After 9/11/01 I was selling 2000 Carver 450 Voyagers for $465k, and 2000 4788's for $340k. Which one took the hit depreciation wise? Right now you can buy 2000 450 Voyagers all day for (way) under $200k, but you would be hard pressed to find a 2000 4788 for under $190k. Which one held it's values best? WHY? I know people who regularly take old Bayliner 45's from San Francisco to Mexico and back, and from Miami to Venezuela and back, and run 4788's and Meridian 490's from Miami to Nova Scotia, and back. 5788 owners from Mexico to Alaska, and sold a Meridian 580 in Costa Rica, that had come down from Alaska. REGULARLY. I'll let you show me the one Carver Voyager that makes those trips. I'm a betting man. Make your bet. You know why I like these boats so well? Because they always go through survey, and I get paid. Lesson learned quite well after years of failed surveys on so called "quality (read expensive) yachts". The Bayliner and Meridian buyers are ALL coming up from smaller boats, and ALL are very experienced and could give two shits about others opinions of them. I was on a cruise ship in Alaska with a guy who owns a 135' Christensen in Vancouver (note we were on cruise ship-NOT his boat!) and a 4588 passed below and he wistfully said "best boat I ever owned, I miss those days". New, younger trophy wife wanted flash, he bought flash but he said he CRUISED his 45' up to Alaska many times. Yes, it's been suggested I lay off the coffee. :>)
BTW- that's a photo of a Bayliner in my avatar, not a Meridian.

Hot Damn - Blake! I appreciate a person who can speak their piece... and back up their statements!!

Soooo... I may be entering a hornets’ nest asking you, this: What report do you give Tollycraft boats?

Perhaps you’ve not been exposed to too many Tolly and perhaps most Tollycraft were smaller than you like to deal in. But, anyway... I look forward to hear what you may think about Tolly construction/build-outs!

Happy Boating Daze – Art

PS : Have another coffee before placing words, I love that stuff toooo - LOL :lol:

As far as the name change goes, you are probably right. They did for the money...duh... They knew they could not charge that kind of money for a Bayliner so they changed the name. I am sure they put a new marketing spin on it to make people think it is a different boat.

As far as resale, they look to be the same. There are 450s that are significantly more than the 4788 but there are some that are significantly less. But average looks to be about the same. We just don't see many Bayliners in our neck of the woods...most are on the West Coast.

As far as the Local Carver dealer goes...I know him and he got smoked. At the top of the market they were the leading Carver dealer in the country so we have shitloads of Voyagers around here. Heck, there are probably 20 in my marina alone!!! After I wrote that I did take a walk in the Marina. I do believe Bayliner owners are likely more knowledgeable than the average Carver owner because I saw some Voyagers that were in poor shape. Not because of design, just because of neglect. I think they thought that the only cost would be the note. I did find an owner on the dock and started talking to him and took a look inside with what you were saying....and I did notice what you were talking about.....nothing but air in there. I imagine it would be kinda "noisy" in there in a sea.

With that said, I would never consider them to be offshore passagemakers and would only take them offshore if the weather was right.

OJ Young.....he is still kicking and has tried to retire numerous times. He can't get it out of his blood. He is the stereotypical grumpy guy that you were talking about in your other post...you just have to know how to take him. And yes, he definitely knows his ****!!! He has done work on many of my boats. Never had a problem....knock fiberglass... Seriously, he does good work at a fair price.

I looked at a Bayliner similar to yours before I bought this one. It was a hurricane Ike boat but had been repaired. It was an awfully nice boat as I lean toward sedan/pilothouse boats. My current boat just kinda found me...matter of fact, my last two boats found me.

My apologies for bashing. I just felt the need to defend(for lack of a better word) since so many people(especially on the internet) have a tendency to propagate rumors and lore. And it has nothing to do with the current boat I own. I would have defended a Bayliner just as vigorously. They all have their place. A Catalina sailboat is a wonderful boat for what most people use their boats for....daytripping and weekending. And so is a Carver. A Catalina is likely not the first choice for a passagemaker(sailboat)....and neither is a Carver. But both serve well for their intended purpose. (I do realize that you were talking about the Voyagers specifically).