Help! I've bled air somewhere FL-135

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Ben

Ben

Guru
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
758
Location
US
Vessel Name
Silver Lining
Vessel Make
Heritage East 44 / Twin Perkins T6.3544
Changed fuel filters, bled incorrectly. Now re-doing. Pressurized until it squirts out the bleed screws, turning and turning, but no start. Battery wearing down. Almost sounded like it would start, but battery tired now.

What am I missing? Suggestions?

I'm moving on to sanding while battery recharges.
 
Are these Lemans?? Did you also bleed the fuel lines at the injectors?
 
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As Edelweiss said.... try the injector furthest from the injection pump.

But before you do that make sure that the O-ring on your new fuel filter is seated properly. Depending on the type of filter there may be 2-3 O-rings involved.
 
I need to check manual for the proper location and procedure.
 
Good and bad -

Good - motor started!

Bad - motor quit.

Went to the injector pump bleed. Lots of air came out. Motor started. Ran a little. Wash-Rinse-Repeat. Did this about 4 times. Had to leave because of dinner plans.

What an education.

Not done yet because motor won't stay running. Got to repeat from inlet fuel filter, outlet, and injector manifold.

This is the first time I changed filters myself. Just got to keep at it. Learning, but one day has been spent on this.

Whew. Thanks everyone for your help. Hopefully good news tomorrow from the rookie.
 
If you're still getting air out of the injector pump bleeders after you have bleed it once and sucessfully started the engine, then you have an air leak. Probably at the fuel filters you just put on.
 
You don't have to bleed the injector pump and in most cases the injectors. The FL 135 injector pump is fitted with a self purge device. If air is the issue, it's before the injector pump.
 
If it started, then stopped, I suspect it's pulling air. First place I'd look is the area I worked, in this case, the secondary fuel filter. Did you replace ALL the Orings? Are they all seated correctly? Double check that, then rebleed the system. You'll find it.

Many of us have gone through this same issue. It's there and it's simple. We just overlooked it. Keep us posted.
 
And in the future, it is probably not a good idea to crank your motor until the battery dies. That can cause a lot of heat and fry something...not to mention your starter and wires leading to it.

Also, you likely have an aqualift type muffler. At some point this muffler will fill with water and then start backfeeding into the engine!!! They usually even carry a placard stating such...on newer boats anyway.
 
After several crank ups and stall outs, bleeding secondary filters and injector pump, a mis-seated o-ring makes the most sense. Have started and stalled out the motor multiple times. It's sucking air most likely at the filters I installed for the first time. Makes the most sense. Time for o-ring reseating.
 
Also check that the old o-ring hasn't stuck in place on your housing. If you add a second o-ring it sometimes doesn't seal, and allows an entry point for air.
 
Can I say F*** on this forum? Probably not.

Can't keep it started. Two days trying.

Boat ran fine until I decided to change the fuel filters. It's seeming to get worse. Yesterday had it going for about a five minute run. Then stop.

Could it be I've messed up the filters? I reseated the o-rings, now worse. This has been the
Most reliable engine since I've had this boat. Until I touched it.

Things I've tried:
1. Bleeding both filters - about 50 times.
2. Reseating the o-rings - twice. Now is worse.
3. Bleeding at the injector pump. About 15 times.
4. Checking/filling racor. Twice.
5.. Pressurizing with the lift pump. Several times.

Not tried yet-
1. Scrap filters and replace again.
2. Mechanic.
3. Taking a class on it.

Is there a wall I can run into full speed with my head down?

Taking a break. Deciding on scrap/redo filters...

Probably will get the spin on kit for this model if can find. Soooo frustrated.

It must be a leak in the secondary filters.
 
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Time to call a pro and pay tuition for this class.

image-2457670180.jpg
 
May or may not be directly applicable to your situation but I have long suggested having on board, and in line if possible, a 12 volt fuel pump such as the Walbro FRB-13. When it comes to priming a Lehman 135 these pumps can work miracles.

In one situation where I clearly had an air leak I was able to use the Walbro pump to pressurize the fuel line and overcome the leak until I got back to a marina for repairs.

Using ball valves I now have the pump permanently mounted so I can switch it on in a minute.

I am sure by now you are tired of the finger operated pump so give some thought to the electric equivalent.

Marty
 
Ben...is one or both old racors? The older ones need a rubber spacer in them for the newer filters to work...not sure if that would cause the engine to shut down...but worth looking at....
 
Bay Pelican said:
May or may not be directly applicable to your situation but I have long suggested having on board, and in line if possible, a 12 volt fuel pump such as the Walbro FRB-13. When it comes to priming a Lehman 135 these pumps can work miracles.

I am sure by now you are tired of the finger operated pump so give some thought to the electric equivalent.

Marty
Click to expand...

I have something like this just before the Racors. I probably should have turned it on. On the engine, I've done oil and coolant. Fuel always worried me for this reason.

I'll have a mechanic walk me through what I'm missing and get some tips. I have 3 Racors 2 for the engine, one for the genset.

Fuel scared me so long that I was glad to do the filter change and learn of this kind of issue. But I spent a weekend on it, and now I'm ready to get it done and know what I missed.

I don't think I (hope not anyway) will have to pull injectors. No response gives me that indication. I think I'm sucking in air at the secondary filters. Just not sure how.
 
I helped a guy a couple month's ago with same problem on Lehman . He changed filters himself for the first time ( he usually let's his mechanic change filters ). We went back to the racors and he had an oring that was not seated right. We re-bleed the system and still would not start. We had to bleed the line at the injector pump .
 
Pack Mule said:
I helped a guy a couple month's ago with same problem on Lehman . He changed filters himself for the first time ( he usually let's his mechanic change filters ). We went back to the racors and he had an oring that was not seated right. We re-bleed the system and still would not start. We had to bleed the line at the injector pump .
Click to expand...

Yes, I bled the line at the injector pump as well. I might need to engage to the electric pump and see if that totally pressurizes. I am suspecting in some way (though this is not visible, because I've gone over it a few times) that somehow my secondary filters are allowing air in. It's possible I may install fresh filters or add another ring, but... not sure how this would help and not hurt...

I let my mechanic do it last two times. But like your friend, I'd like to be self-sufficient in the long run and know my boat.
 
Ben said:
It's possible I may install fresh filters or add another ring, but... not sure how this would help and not hurt... QUOTE]

DO NOT ADD A SECOND O RING or gasket. That would be a guarenteed leak. Pressurize your system as you suggested and look for fuel or air leaks. If you can't find it, at this point it sounds to me like you need to have someone qualified examine your work and find the problem.

LB
Click to expand...
 
Edelweiss said:
Ben said:
It's possible I may install fresh filters or add another ring, but... not sure how this would help and not hurt... QUOTE]

DO NOT ADD A SECOND O RING or gasket. That would be a guarenteed leak. Pressurize your system as you suggested and look for fuel or air leaks. If you can't find it, at this point it sounds to me like you need to have someone qualified examine your work and find the problem.

LB
Click to expand...

I wasn't leaning toward it. I felt it would add an extra element of variability that I do not need. I was thinking in fact to order the spin-on adapters - which I believe due to the reduced connections, would be more reliable. So I assume...

I'm not happy to be unsuccessful, but this fuel thing is my scariest obstacle in my engine learning to date. So I am happy to deal with it and learn the pitfalls. Just wish I would get past them soon.

Once past this, I hope to re-plumb my cooling with new hoses and ream my heat exchanger, but first things first.
:ermm:
Click to expand...
 
I do not know your filter set-up but about all diesel fuel systems I've worked on the supply pump sucks fuel from the tank & thru the primary filter or filters. It then pushes the fuel thru the secondary filter & to the injector pump. If you get a length of clear line that you can plumb into the suction side of the supply pump you can use that to help diagnose the problem. Anywhere there is a fitting can be the source of the air, my 1st guess is in changing the filter you left out a oring or didn't get one seated properly but you've redone it enough times I would think you would've found it. Check all rubber hose & fittings between the fuel tank & supply pump if you find anything suspect replace it, old soft hose or hard brittle hose should be 1st. Then with the clear line in place bleed the system if while bleeding your getting bubbles in the clear line you still have a air leak. Move the clear line to the next place there is a fitting going toward the tank & repeat the bleeding process. Keep doing this till you get no bubbles, somewhere between there & the last place you had the clear line is the leak. Good luck
 
Somewhere you made a mistake. Out of place or damaged seal, doubled o ring, improperly seated seal, crack in a part.

Do you have any valves in the system, anywhere, that open to the air or to another tank or a generator. Got me years ago. I have a valve that allows me to fill another tank from the main system and I managed to back into it unknowingly a bump it just a tiny bit. But it was enough. Took the mechanic to find it.

River cruisers suggestion about using a piece of clear vinyl tubeing to help locate the air leak source is a good one.

You may not appreciate it right now but think about what would have happened if the filters plugged and you had to change them out on a cruise. It happens and has happened to me. It is imperative that you know how to do it and properly as sooner or later dirty fuel will catch up to you.

Good luck
 
Also be sure to use a mirror to be sure the square o ring the slips into the groove on the CAV top housing did not spin while being installed each time- this happens occasionally. You sound pretty knowledgable in your approach. I would wonder about a defective filter allowing air- but they are past the primer pump.
 
Ben said:
Edelweiss said:
I wasn't leaning toward it. I felt it would add an extra element of variability that I do not need. I was thinking in fact to order the spin-on adapters - which I believe due to the reduced connections, would be more reliable. So I assume...

I'm not happy to be unsuccessful, but this fuel thing is my scariest obstacle in my engine learning to date. So I am happy to deal with it and learn the pitfalls. Just wish I would get past them soon.

Once past this, I hope to re-plumb my cooling with new hoses and ream my heat exchanger, but first things first.
:ermm:
Click to expand...

Ben,

Sorry to hear your frustration, as the exact same thing happened to me when I changed my Racors. I too, was afraid to change anything, since the engine had been running so well for over a 100 hours.:hide:

For me, I was forced to finally change the Racors, when the engine stopped in the middle of Long Island Sound. I switched to the other Racor and luckily, got the engine running.:whistling:

So next day, at marina, I decided to change Racors.

Did so, replaced large black rubber gasket, left small orange one that is on top of lid alone, as it looked happy. :D

Started engine. It ran for 15 minutes and then died.:eek:

Tried to start it again, no start.

Started worrying about wet exhaust. Looked at book, luckily decided not to f… around with I had not already touched. So I did not try to bleed injectors, etc., as my experience with engines has been that even when you think it can’t be something you did, it is.:thumb:

I reluctantly called by great mechanic, Dave in Florida, he told me that when I changed Racors, I had to refilled them to overflowing, so as I tightened the lid, fuel would come out, I did, and the engine started right up (need to put it at medium throttle) and hasn't stopped running since.:thumb::thumb:

Then, a few weeks later, I changed the engine fuel filters and just followed the manual to the letter. All it really took was re-priming using the self-priming lever on the side of the injector pump. Worked as advertised.

How long did the engine run the first time it quite? That should give you some idea as to where the air leak it.
Good luck.
Click to expand...
 
Wxx3 said:
Ben said:
Ben,


How long did the engine run the first time it quite? That should give you some idea as to where the air leak it.
Good luck.
Click to expand...


I think Dauntless has given you the answer. Trouble is, you need to know how much fuel the engine pumps in a minute, and then know how far back from the injectors that will take you in your search for an air leak. You have twins, right? You could measure the per minute volume pumped by undoing the return line from the second engine at any convenient point between the engine and the tank. Then you could measure the capacity of the secondary filter housing, the Racor housing and of the few feet of tubing between the engine and the first point that was opened. That approach will eliminate items as the time of successful running gets longer.
Click to expand...
 
The replies talking about changing fuel filters while on a cruise brings this up. I change my primaries at 120 to 125 hours & secondaries at 250 hours, I do this while in the slip, there may be a few curse words but no drama. I do drain the water off the bottom of the primaries & the dedicated engine mounted water traps occasionally, I very seldom get anything other than fuel out of them. If you want to be sure your getting all the useful life out of your primaries install a vacuum gauge, Racor has one that will replace the tee handle. I find it easier to change on a schedule & only keep 2 extra changes in the onboard spares. Good luck
 
C lectric said:
Somewhere you made a mistake.
Click to expand...

I read this and I laughed quite a bit. A sad laugh, because you are right.

C lectric said:
You may not appreciate it right now but think about what would have happened if the filters plugged and you had to change them out on a cruise.

It is imperative that you know how to do it and properly as sooner or later dirty fuel will catch up to you.
Click to expand...

It's my priority as well. The learning value is worth the frustration time. Part of the value is getting past my fear of messing with it.

Thanks.
 
Ben:
In post #20 you mention moving on to your cooling system after the fuel issue is solved. New hoses and clean heat exchangers are a good idea, but, I would advise removing the heat exchanger and also the oil cooler and taking them to a radiator shop and let them handle the job. I have done this and the cost for both was under a $100 total. Both came back looking brand new and was worth not worrying about poking a hole in the heat exchanger while reaming.
Mike
 
Gulf Comanche said:
New hoses and clean heat exchangers are a good idea, but, I would advise removing the heat exchanger and also the oil cooler and taking them to a radiator shop and let them handle the job. Mike
Click to expand...

+1 I agree!!
 
...New hoses and clean heat exchangers are a good idea, but, I would advise removing the heat exchanger and also the oil cooler and taking them to a radiator shop and let them handle the job....
Click to expand...

Good idea but how old are they? If the oil and/or transmission coolers are approaching ~2000 hours, replace them, even if they look good, they wear out. The heat exchanger on the engine, the Ford Lehman SP135 gurus say to replace approximately every 4000 hours. In all cases if you replace, make sure they are made with Cupro-Nickel.
 
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