Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

Flying Bridge ??

Chuck Gould said:

To my eye, (and that's of course entirely subjective) I think the flybridge cowling detracts from the general lines of the boat. Somebody posted an early sketch of this design without the flybridge. Much better. Especially from the front quarter views, the boat seems (to me, at least) to look unnecessarily top heavy.

The flybridge looks out of place, sort of like somebody stuck a stovepipe hat on a Hollywood starlet. Opinions will differ of course, but that's mine.

Click to expand...

markpierce said:

But life is simpler/basic without a flying bridge!

Click to expand...

I've been looking thru Jay Benford's book 'Small Ships' just recently and I ran into this illustration of one variation of his 35' Pacquette design:
http://www.benford.us/pdf/35Trawler.pdf

It got me to thinking about 'combining' the upper and lower helm stations of the flybridge model Pilgrim into a single pilot station raised higher than the original one, and provided with lots of ventilation as one might experience in the flying bridge, but without requiring the additional sun awning. One station, without duplication of steering gear and instrumentation.

Plus it would allow for more headroom in that fwd berth area. I think it could be incorporated into the design without any great disruption of the original design, and actually be more appealing than the flybridge add-on with its ever taller awning??

A raised pilothouse while nice is not the same as a flying bridge.

For those that want one...they will still want a true flying bridge no matter how high or open you make the pilothouse...right up until it is just a flying bridge in itself.

Not everyone cares..but those that do know the difference and what they like.

I must say, the Benford design you posted is rather conservative in comparison to many of the Florida Bay Coasters. I like it.

brian eiland said:

I've been looking thru Jay Benford's book 'Small Ships' just recently ....

Click to expand...

Here is the book I've been reviewing,....LOTS of designs other than just his 'coasters'
Small Ships: Jay Benford: 9781888671414: Amazon.com: Books


....and you can find a PDF of a number of his different designs on this page of his website.
Benford Design Group

IN FL many of the fly bridges are 100% covered and air conditioned .

Called oxygen tents , they are the sign of a poorly designed boat, that probably cant be well operated from below.

FF it's surprising how many of those boats ther'e are.

Cabin Superstructure Construction

This is the plastic honeycomb material I want to utilize to build the superstructure(s), ie ….cabin sides and roofs




Plascore PDF
www.plascore.com/pdf/PP_Honeycomb.pdf

I'd like to use a relatively thick section of PP honeycomb (1 to 2 inches) to get a relatively stiff panel, with a minimum of layup of fiberglass skins on both inner and outer surfaces. The skins of this sandwich structure can be varied in their layup depending upon the required strengths needed for roof panels, cabin-side panels, etc. I don't foresee a need for big shear resistance in these panels that will be basically glued together to form the big 'box' structure of the main cabin and pilot station. Here are two illustration of that basic 'box' structure with bold lines to emphasis the structure.



Note also there is additional support for this 'big box cabin' via the vertical support tubes / columns that are anchored in the steel gunnels / bulwarks and then reach up to support the outer edges of the cabin roof. With these columns and the stiff panel walls there should be no other requirements for any internal framing inside the cabin box. Possibly there will be some additional corner braces added to the inside and outside of the 'cabin box', and these may appear as finishing-trim pieces.


This entire cabin box structure can be quickly assembled from pre-cut honeycomb sandwich panels off over in a corner of the shop, right on the shop floor, then lifted onto the deck of the vessel and glued or mechanically attached down. Built of primarily hollow honeycomb panels, this superstructure should be pretty light-weight.


There is no electrical wiring nor plumbing contained in the walls of this cabin-box. These services are all provided for by way of the floor of the cabin,....underside of the deck.


And speaking of the deck, I would wish to construct the main deck of this same Plascore honeycomb sandwich material. It would have a slight crown shape across the vessel, and will have sufficient glass layup on either skin to support big loads. It would also be molded by resin-injection to insure an excellent resin glass ratio, and a very thorough bonding between the skins and the core, thus preventing any water migration along the bondline.




For reference:.... previous postings on KSS construction of panels
post #109
post #110



Next,...finishing off these superstructure panels...

I have done pilot house roofs (to replace damage from fly bridges that were not resealed /rebedded) with no mold.

The GRP is laid up on one side to the required thickness ,on a flat surface, left to cure Onite then simply flipped over and set on a 2x6 or 2x8 to create the desired camber.

Usually an additional set of 2x4 is needed to assure a smooth curve as the new green layup is very flexible.

The added layers are simply hand laminated , again to the required thickness.

IF done inside the top can be carried out the next day to cure in the sunshine.

Depending on the strength required this will weigh about 2.5 lbs per sq foot so have friends and beer ready when carrying it down the dock to stick on the boat.

This is as simple and as low cost as can be done as the only special tool required is a steel roller to assure good wet out, and a squirt bottle to measure the hardener easily , tho a shot glass works too.

FF, I do appreciate your pointing out that these 'panels' could be all 'hand made' in the simplest of fashion.


But also. what I appear to detect is that the relatively small camber that exist in the cabin sides...

...could very well be the same that might be utilized for main deck (and saloon floor), and the top deck (cabin roof). Thus all of these panels could be layed-up on one single 'KSS table' constructed with this single-plane curvature.
KSS table


This horizontal 'table' sitting a few feet off the ground would make for an ideal surface onto which to place the entire lay-up (both skins and core) in a 'dry' state, and then subsequently pull (vacuum) the resin thru the lay-up all in one clean shot. This 'resin infusion' does not require sophisticated equipment (quite simple really), and the vacuum bag gives a very consistent resin/glass ratio without the need for hand rolling & squeegee.

>This 'resin infusion' does not require sophisticated equipment (quite simple really),<

It may be quite simple for you , but the couple mfg I know that now use the system went thru a long learning process with lots of tubing going solid and large areas that were not infused , instant EXPENSIVE scrap.

Look at any supply advertiser in Pro boat builder to get an idea of the equipment and supplies required.

The learning process to hand layup is taught to economic migrants in about 10 min at many FL or NC boat builders.

Not a problem for a boat owner that can read , and just needs a replacement floor , hatch or cabin top .

The Kelsall system is great , but the work is done at his skool shop with experienced instruction and the huge variety of vacuum supplies at hand.

With hand layup a paint roller ,plastic pail and steel roller is all that is needed.

Just jump into this discussion, interresting.

Maybe a dutch alternative;

Euroship Services

Scroll down for the pictures.

FF said:

>
With hand layup a paint roller ,plastic pail and steel roller is all that is needed.

Click to expand...

I think FF is dead on with good advice. The only thing you need to add to that is patience, persistence and a good eye.

Reiziger,
Very nice link to a very nice boat. It's odd in that it seems to have a very abrupt entrance fwd and (the opposite) aft .. a very easy exit. She's a boat to lust over to be sure.

healhustler said:

I think FF is dead on with good advice. The only thing you need to add to that is patience, persistence and a good eye.

Click to expand...

Dear FF and Healhustler,
I agree with both of you, if I was only building one vessel. But please realize I am taking into consideration the possibility that at least 4 or more of these new vessels per year might be called for in the future.

Reiziger said:

Just jump into this discussion, interresting.

Maybe a dutch alternative;

Euroship Services

Scroll down for the pictures.

Click to expand...

Yes Reizigere I have found this site and the canal boat discussions VERY interesting for several years now. I particularly like the Roi Soliel vessel and the luxe motor 2000 deksalon models of great interest.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s30/living-aboard-french-canal-boat-7685-3.html

I thought I saw some reference to their having experimented with composite decks and superstructures, but I can't find that at the moment. I thought it could be on interest to both them and the Jay Benford 'Florida Bay Coasters' group. I'm exploring this topic at the moment privately.

>But please realize I am taking into consideration the possibility that at least 4 or more of these new vessels per year might be called for in the future.<

To get a good surface finish a KISS hull could provide the plug .

Back in the day Franz Mass would build an Airex hull , and use its light weight and super stifness to win sail races.

He would pop a mold and shoot copies , and it was years before the owners figured out why he beat them with the <same> boat.

The modern CNC mold makers are probably cheaper than a KISS plug and then building a female mold.

Many builders simply contract out the entire hull , deck house process and finish the boat to the owners spec.

An inshore cookie would probably be pretty standard so there should be some savings on multiple identical builds.

FF said:

...To get a good surface finish a KISS hull could provide the plug .

Click to expand...

Yes I've thought about this, but at present I'm still leery of what the numbers could be, so I'm trying to avoid as much 'tooling investment' as possible to begin with.

The modern CNC mold makers are probably cheaper than a KISS plug and then building a female mold.

Click to expand...

Haven't priced that out recently, but I think it is still a somewhat costly endeavor.

Many builders simply contract out the entire hull , deck house process and finish the boat to the owners spec.

Click to expand...

I'm definitely thinking in those terms.

Very likely just have a steel shop weld up the CNC cut panels and deliver that to use in its frameless style cradle, primed and epoxy coated. Then you are not paying for metal workers (or bulk FG layup workers to sit around waiting for another order.

And the carpentry portion of the job might be farmed out to another 'home building supply group' that needs a little side work to fill out their schedule. I've done a little looking at operations in Thailand, and I know of some in Vietnam that could supply all the interior wood as a 'kit' to be installed. For that matter a USA company might just as well supply the CNC cut wood kit for not that much greater price,...and we'd be employing US workers. I even know personally of some home remodeling friends with a wood shop that could knock this wood kit out rather easily once all the dimensions and shapes were documented.

An inshore cookie would probably be pretty standard so there should be some savings on multiple identical builds.

Click to expand...

Don't understand?




Back again to the hull subject. Another reason I had considered this one-off steel hull approach to start things out is so I was NOT locked into a particular hull design for long term. What if someone wanted to employ an SRD hull, or a Gerr hull, or a box-keel hull, or a Jay Benford 'Florida Coaster' hull form, or a Great Harbor hull form?? This 40' vessel might accept any one of the hull shapes underneath.

>An inshore cookie would probably be pretty standard so there should be some savings on multiple identical builds.<

Many folks decide the interior must be customized fir their particular needs.

Usually much more on a higher priced boat , but not uncommon on a price point boat.This can be a profit center , or real PIA .

One advantage to a semi production interior is it is usually more easily removed for repair or up grade or with a steel boat for repainting the hull interior.

IF interior removal is part of the design / construction process it can save huge bucks for long term owners

It is doubtful that a steel hull would be fair enough to spring a mold from without major hours in fairing .

An aluminum hull would be ad bad , but being lighter , and with a brushed finish (no topside paint ) far easier to maintain cruising. Far easier to use a bit of buffing to a 7 coat repaint for each scratch docking.

Cold Hard Steel

Just happened across this article by Bill Parlatore, past editor of PassageMaker magazine.

Cold Hard Steel | PassageMaker

Great steel boat article but as usual its lots of puff.

One builder states a properly painted boat will last the life of the owner and his kids.

Sounds great , until a bit later,,,

when of course he points out that every 10 years the boat will need to be blasted to water white and 7 coats of paint done.

Same and repainting the bilge area every 10 Years .

Yes,, my Detroit Diesel will last 100,000 hours , if it gets an inframe every 15,000 to 20,000 hours.

The big joy of GRP is it does not die from being ignored , even for decades.

Minor streaks of rust do not appear and slowly become windows on the world !

There is no PERFECT hull construction material , and steel is great for an occupied world cruiser where any scratch can be taken care of instantly .

In the good old days with sextant and MDF many cruisers found reefs to bounce off of.

Today with a hand held GPS , this becomes pretty rare , and most of the distance cruisers today LOVE their toys so GPS , radar ADF , MDF , depth sounders , fwd looking sounders are just the start of the usual , big boat nav aid grab bag.

brian eiland said:

Interesting observation from a fellow who has owned at least 2 of these vessels I believe. I'll keep that in mind.

Notice on their video 'How it Works', one only needs two good stringers to mount the gyro unit to, and those existed for engine mounting in the original vessel design. I would retain 2 such 'main frame stringers' to provide vessel rigidity in the fore-to-aft axis.

So the gyro-unit might be placed in the compartment with its electric supply (generator), just ahead of the main engine. Or it might be placed under the aft 'porch' deck.

Click to expand...

Watched the video and thought these were amazing... did some VERY quick research and came up with a cost a couple years old of between 40,000 and 100,000 POUNDS STERLING for purchase and installation. (The 40K was for someone buying factory-refurb directly from Seakeeper; not a deal that seemed available to everyone.) Can't say whether it's 'keeping it simple' but definitely not keeping it cheap.

Anything good or bad about seakeeper gyros?

Still, for either dreamers or those with unlimited resources...

Sea Gyro

Got to spend only a very short time (2hrs) at TrawlerFest in Balt this past week, but I did pick up a flyer on another brand gyro unit from Australia,....Sea Gyro.

I ask rather quickly, what unit might be suggested for a 40 footer weighing about 22,000 lbs and was told the SG 5K which listed ex-factory at 30K.

Sea Gyro International

Wood for Interior

Wood Interior (continued)

>The wood trim pieces on the ceiling harken back to the days of laminated deck support beams.<

Did you mean the overhead?

The head is on the main level.

An optional one is in the forepeak.

The stack is the propane locker.

FF said:

>The wood trim pieces on the ceiling harken back to the days of laminated deck support beams.<

Did you mean the overhead?

Click to expand...

You are correct, I was thinking more of the traditional sailboat where the deck structure is the overhead for the interior.

Redsesigned Forepeak

SaltyDog said:

The head is on the main level.

An optional one is in the forepeak.

Click to expand...

I think having two heads on a vessel that is aimed squarely at one couple usage is just that much extra headache

I would rather like to take that extra space in the forepeak and find a way to make a more 'open/airy' double berth arrangement like many of the other similar size trawlers. I would then make that space of the existing berth (under the helm station) into some nice hanging lockers and drawer lockers. Perhaps even include a vanity along with these lockers/drawers.

I also think this new berth location will isolate it from the bulkhead it was adjacent to that had the generator installed just on the other side.

This might necessitate making the vessel a foot longer, but I will try to resist this increase in length.