Sea Trial, mechanical, move forward?

Yeah, right now I have a quote about $6k just in labor and add another $3k for tanks. So your right on the money to the $20s. It's sad that something as easy as a fuel plate/access would cause such an issue. Well the ball is in the owners court and we'll see what he is going to do. I am however looking for plan B as I don't think he is going to take the hit to what he feels is his bottom line.

If you walk away from this boat find a Surveyor like mine. If I see a boat that I may be interested in, he told me to call him and he will come out and take a look at it and he will tell me if it is worthy of a full survey. If it's not, we go get a cup of coffee and I pay him a few bucks for his time. It's a lot less painful that way. And less painful than when I used to see him in his previous occupation 30 years ago. He was my Chiropractor!

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Getting a lot harder here,
He's willing to drop down to $25k or he will install new tanks.

I'd take the boat and hire a welder to repair the tanks. Yes, it can be done safely.

After much thought - and some sleeplessness (which I am sure everyone can relate to) I have offered the owner just over $20k to take on everything that needs attention and move the process along so it becomes my problem and not his. We'll see what he does. I am going to grind down the faux teak deck and renew the deck while repairing the soft/moisture spots, either have the tanks welded by an experienced welder or put in new tanks.
Replace carpet
add new GPS
fix the laundry list of items found on the survey
add canvas top and back
and hopefully enjoy the heck out of the new boat!!

Hi Bshillam.

Holes in the side of a gasoline fuel tank are, indeed, in violation of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFRs) that govern how the Coast Guard enforces safety issues in vessels. Should you be stopped for a routine safety inspection while underway, you will in all probability be cited for unsafe fuel storage, and probably escorted back to port ASAP. As pointed out by others, it is highly unlikely that an insurance company will issue a liability policy (much less property damage) for a vessel with an illegal fuel storage system aboard, particularly on a gas boat. Don't forget that the insurance companies require a copy of the survey before they issue the policy. Ever seen a gasoline boat blow up at engine startup as a result of a faulty fuel system? It ain't pretty.

Can you effectively repair damage to the existing tanks caused by the dingbats that "polished" the fuel (gasoline? Polish? huh?)? In my opinion, not a chance. Your response to "empty the tanks of gasoline. Fill with water. Weld. Replace gasoline" is not very realistic. Presumably the access covers are screwed or through-bolted to the tanks, with a gasket between. So, welding the perimeter of the cover to the tank is (theoretically) possible. But, how do you keep the gasket from frying during welding? What do you do about the through-bolts that still penetrate the sides of the tanks? You can no longer access the interior of the tank to extract the bolts. If the covers are screwed on from the outside instead of through-bolted, presumably the tank itself is drilled and tapped through. If you withdraw the screw and attempt to plug weld the screw hole, out comes the water!

If you only partially fill the tanks with water in the first place, stand WAY WAY WAY back when the welder comes close with his TIG or MIG welder. ANY void in the tank will be vapor-filled, and an absolute guarantee of an explosion when welding is attempted. And if you find a welder that is willing to weld on a gasoline tank while it's still in place in the interior of a boat, it's highly unlikely he's ever done it before. Again, stand WAY, WAY back, make sure you're heavily insured for worker's comp, and can stand the loss of your boat should it get blown to smithereens.

Are there other solutions? Yeah, you can always butch up something and convince yourself it's OK. Inserting a bladder into the tank is certainly possible, but finding one that will fit is not trivial. Having one made to fit is not inexpensive. Properly plumbing the bladder through the top of the tank is not impossible, but again, non-trivial.

Is an inexpensive boat with a substandard gasoline fuel system worth your life? If you are truly smitten with this particular boat, get several quotes from competent repair yards to replace the fuel tanks, and reduce your offer accordingly. If the seller refuses your offer, run the other way. Gasoline and bad tankage is a bomb waiting to go off.

Regards,

Pete

Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions. As it stands I have an offer on the boat at an amount I feel comfortable paying and still having funds to replace the tanks with newly built coast guard approved tanks. I have submitted my survey to the insurance company and will await their response. If the insurance company isn't willing to accept the risk then the owner will have the gas tanks installed. Either way I get fresh tanks in the boat. Everyone is right leaving them as is is simply not acceptable. I am going to have my entire family aboard the vessel and then some. I knowing take risks going out to the water. However taking risks with gas, propane, or any other type of flammable material isn't acceptable. PERIOD. I am glad to pay to have the tanks replaced and then have the opportunity to enjoy them for many years to come.

Insurance is binding as of today, with the understanding the safety deficiencies will be corrected in short order! I have already scheduled appointments to pull the old tanks and put in freshly built tanks. I guess the benefit is that the new tanks will have a new sending unit which I needed! Anyhow - now starts the fun,
New gps for the fly, new carpet, new canvas (since it has none), some light mechanical, and so forth! Planning the first weekend get a away too.
I am so looking forward to having a boat again!

Good for you and congratulations, just the beginning of a new journey! All the best!!

I spoke to a 30 experienced marine heavy welder with Misner Marine, my life long friends dad. He is now years retired but said about welding on a gas tank installed in a boat "you don't have enough money,.... really you don't" when pressed he said not even for a blank check.

You made the right decision, sleep well and enjoy your boat in good health.

psneeld said:

Mine might have come close...the hydrolysis problem was at least 1/2 way through the laminates on a 5x5 foot section underneath the starboard fuel tank spanning more than 2 ribs. The serious damage may have come when the boat was out of the water and the weight of the fuel tanks may have exceeded the strength of that section and started to crack ribs. Another few winter freeze thaw cycles on this severely delaminated area was disturbing.

The only way to find a problem like mine is hull coring or grinding...I just happened to get there because of my "cosmetic" blisters as described by the surveyor and I decided to strip and barrier coat.

My estimation is there are other 1980's vintage boats out there where there is a much bigger problem than the owners know...but a fresh coat of bottom paint keeps everyone happy.

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That looks horrible. But your boat wouldn't have sunk today, tomorrow or in 20 years. You won't find pictures of boats that sunk due to blisters, you just won't. I'm all for spot fixing large blisters or those with the financial means to pay for costly correction.... Otherwise, for most people, it's a waste of time and energy on a 30-40 year old boat to strip, dry out, and apply controversial barrier coats (many failures). The old diesel engine will fail long before the boat sinks from blisters. We'll just have to agree to disagree as to the importance of chasing this 'cosmetic' problem. Here is a good read:

Is the Repair of Blistered Bottoms Mandatory? Based on the foregoing discussion, the obvious conclusion in most cases is negative. If the blisters cannot be shown to be causing significant damage, then repair is certainly not mandatory, despite the many horror stories you may hear from people trying to sell you a costly repair job. If the blisters are large and numerous, it would be wise to seek unbiased, professional advice before you proceed. Bear in mind that blister repair jobs are now big business for boat yards, so that taking advice from yard managers may not be a good idea.
Yes, blisters are unsightly and may cause a resale problem. These are all factors you must weigh, in addition to the very high cost, when deciding to repair or not. Further, you should also be aware that the number of failed blister repair jobs that surveyor's find is very high. No one's ever going to know why blister repairs fail because no one is going to spend the money to find out. That there are so many should also play a role in your decision to repair or not. And even though the repairer may give a warranty on the repairs, you'd best get it in writing and read the fine print. Then make sure the repairer is likely to be around years later to honor that warranty if it becomes necessary.-----David Pascoe

Adelaide said:

That looks horrible. But your boat wouldn't have sunk today, tomorrow or in 20 years. You won't find pictures of boats that sunk due to blisters, you just won't. I'm all for spot fixing large blisters or those with the financial means to pay for costly correction.... Otherwise, for most people, it's a waste of time and energy on a 30-40 year old boat to strip, dry out, and apply controversial barrier coats (many failures). The old diesel engine will fail long before the boat sinks from blisters. We'll just have to agree to disagree as to the importance of chasing this 'cosmetic' problem. Here is a good read:

Is the Repair of Blistered Bottoms Mandatory? Based on the foregoing discussion, the obvious conclusion in most cases is negative. If the blisters cannot be shown to be causing significant damage, then repair is certainly not mandatory, despite the many horror stories you may hear from people trying to sell you a costly repair job. If the blisters are large and numerous, it would be wise to seek unbiased, professional advice before you proceed. Bear in mind that blister repair jobs are now big business for boat yards, so that taking advice from yard managers may not be a good idea.
Yes, blisters are unsightly and may cause a resale problem. These are all factors you must weigh, in addition to the very high cost, when deciding to repair or not. Further, you should also be aware that the number of failed blister repair jobs that surveyor's find is very high. No one's ever going to know why blister repairs fail because no one is going to spend the money to find out. That there are so many should also play a role in your decision to repair or not. And even though the repairer may give a warranty on the repairs, you'd best get it in writing and read the fine print. Then make sure the repairer is likely to be around years later to honor that warranty if it becomes necessary.-----David Pascoe

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I don't know if it would have failed in under 20 years and neither do you or Pascoe...I have a much better idea of the problem than either of you because I was on my back for 4 months grinding and doing the repair.

There have been boats deemed unseaworthy by the USCG because of blisters and the owners recouped money from the manufacturers.

Is hydrolysis a huge problem for everyone?...absolutely not...can it be a huge problem for some boats?...absolutely. Hydrolysis and blister are related but not exactly the same.

Suggesting to people otherwise is a disservice and forming conclusions from internet pictures (whether it be blisters/hydrolysis or hull speed) can be absolutely ludicrous.

psneeld said:

I don't know if it would have failed in under 20 years and neither do you or Pascoe...I have a much better idea of the problem than either of you because I was on my back for 4 months grinding and doing the repair.

There have been boats deemed unseaworthy by the USCG because of blisters and the owners recouped money from the manufacturers.

Is hydrolysis a huge problem for everyone?...absolutely not...can it be a huge problem for some boats?...absolutely. Hydrolysis and blister are related but not exactly the same.

Suggesting to people otherwise is a disservice and forming conclusions from internet pictures (whether it be blisters/hydrolysis or hull speed) can be absolutely ludicrous.

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With all due respect Psneeld, We are talking about what a professional surveyor stated to the Original Poster..... The surveyor said it was cosmetic, the vast majority are. Your scare tactics and pictures of what you did personally to your boat is really the disservice here. I would never suggest someone take on what you did alone. Nor would I ever recommend someone buy a boat from someone who did there own blister bottom job. It would, IMO be more likely to fail than professional jobs (not talking about you specifically). Potentially having done more damage than if that person left it alone.

Remember Psneeld, we're talking about under $50K, 30+ year old boats. It's completely unnecessary to chase problems like blisters and you certainly shouldn't run away from a prospective boat due to cosmetic blisters.

Adelaide said:

....You won't find pictures of boats that sunk due to blisters, you just won't.

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Could be you are on safe ground because they are not worth salvage to photograph.
I respect you have a strong view on this, but still disagree.

I'm with Adelaide here, but with the proviso the blisters are not huge. When I had my pre-purchase survey done on Lotus 11 yrs ago now, he spotted a number of blisters, (quite a number actually - mostly ~ 20 cent coin size, (ok, Aussie coinage if you want to be pedantic, ie ~ 3 cm across), and he commented he had never seen a boat sunk by blisters. I photographed them, and have continued to monitor them over the last 11 yrs, and they have essentially remained unchanged, as they had for the previous duration the PO had done likewise. So expensive peel and re-fill and re-coat would have been a waste of time and money, not worth it in the context of a then $60k boat. If I had let myself be put off at that time, I would have missed out on a great boat, because no similar design in the sedan version, which was affordable to me, ever came along. I know, because I kept watching out of interest. New ones are $360k.

Adelaide said:

With all due respect Psneeld, We are talking about what a professional surveyor stated to the Original Poster..... The surveyor said it was cosmetic, the vast majority are. Your scare tactics and pictures of what you did personally to your boat is really the disservice here. I would never suggest someone take on what you did alone. Nor would I ever recommend someone buy a boat from someone who did there own blister bottom job. It would, IMO be more likely to fail than professional jobs (not talking about you specifically). Potentially having done more damage than if that person left it alone.

Remember Psneeld, we're talking about under $50K, 30+ year old boats. It's completely unnecessary to chase problems like blisters and you certainly shouldn't run away from a prospective boat due to cosmetic blisters.

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Well...my surveyor said my blisters were cosmetic too...and that's really my point.

If you think that being able to flex your hull by pushing against it, underneath a 200 gallon fuel tank is normal then great.

I'm just saying there could be other boats out there with issues that "professionals" miss...how and when they might fail?...you are correct... who knows? I just chose what I felt was a better alternative.

They may never fail but a hull delaminated more than 1/2 way through certainly is NOT cosmetic...no one here would buy a boat with that issue or would they put to sea with it. Heck...some get nervous with a fuel drip. I trusted a well known, accredited surveyor to tell me because I was not able to be there for the haulout prior to purchase...and not sure I would have been able to get the leverage necessary to feel the hull flex.

Disservice? OK...don't check your boat or tell others to...what do I care? I don't want to scare anyone...but I don't come here to share information that I dream up like some pretending to be a NA, or tell everyone what great engines I have and can't find the dipstick, etc..etc.

If blisters are no big deal....then a owner bottom job must be no big deal either..never heard of a boat sinking because an owner did one. Interlux sell a lot of Interprotect..and I have never had any of the ones I've done or have seen done or heard of done by people I know fail....so what's the big deal with owner bottom jobs...in fact I've heard as many professional ones that didn't do anything /fail than by amateurs.

I know few boats probably are like mine...but what are the chances there are others like mine out there where a newbie and the typical surveyor just don't know it?

psneeld said:

Well...my surveyor said my blisters were cosmetic too...and that's really my point.

If you think that being able to flex your hull by pushing against it, underneath a 200 gallon fuel tank is normal then great.

I'm just saying there could be other boats out there with issues that "professionals" miss...how and when they might fail?...you are correct... who knows? I just chose what I felt was a better alternative.

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Psneeld, I understand your point. I am sure you did the right thing with your boat. I'm all for it. But this guy didn't say he could flex the hull like you suggest. I think where we have gone wrong here, is that we have made this too personal. We are talking about the Original Posters survey. You can easily check a blister by cutting it open, seeing if anything oozes out and smells. If nothing oozes out, most likely the blister is in the bottom paint. The surveyor (again professional) deemed the blisters on the OP surveyed boat as cosmetic (most blisters are), we should leave it at that and not suggest that the surveyor didn't do his job. That just isn't fair to the OP. Have a great day, if you're a college football fan, I hope your team wins.

BruceK said:

Could be you are on safe ground because they are not worth salvage to photograph.

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With 1-4 boats of that era having blisters, there would be 100,000+ boats all of the world. Someone would have taken a picture.

Adelaide said:

Psneeld, I understand your point. I am sure you did the right thing with your boat. I'm all for it. But this guy didn't say he could flex the hull like you suggest. I think where we have gone wrong here, is that we have made this too personal. We are talking about the Original Posters survey. You can easily check a blister by cutting it open, seeing if anything oozes out and smells. If nothing oozes out, most likely the blister is in the bottom paint. The surveyor (again professional) deemed the blisters on the OP surveyed boat as cosmetic (most blisters are), we should leave it at that and not suggest that the surveyor didn't do his job. That just isn't fair to the OP. Have a great day, if you're a college football fan, I hope your team wins.

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Here's is the only comment that the OP made about blisters that I can find...please point me to the post that I may have missed that's more explicit...

"Blisters - the surveyor didn't think they were to much of an issue. His recommendation, watch them each hull out and if changes occur repair. I didn't take pictures unfortunately but I would say there is maybe a total of 100 on the hull? But then again we could have some under the bottom paint, either way he didn't think there was anything to worry about. "

That is very little info to go on...nowhere that I could find did he say the surveyor popped the blisters or te odor that came from them. No where did he say anything about moisture in the hull or possible delam or voids....no where did he say where he DID find voids/delam that the hull could be/not be flexed.

What I highlighted in red is exactly what my "professional" surveyor said also.

Read up on blisters...boats without blisters can have a severe hydrolysis event going on and the "osmotic pressure" never developes or is past that stage because water has already migrated into the interior...or it's so porous that the in/out flow doesn't allow blisters to form.

There are many Tollys for sale in the PNW fitting the price range OP desires. Why this one flawed as it is?

BruceK said:

There are blisters, and blisters. Generalization is unsafe, even if this case is cosmetic, though 100 in number would bother me.
Adelaide, I can`t meet your standard of proof and understand you may disregard this, but:
1. On my boat some blisters were ground about 1/2 inch deep before water intrusion was eradicated.
2. A shipwright told me he has had to grind through a hull to eradicate a blister, forming up a repair inside. I`ve no reason to disbelieve him.
3. An older sailboat, presenting at a yard I trust, had osmosis penetration deep enough to wet the interior. The furniture was glassed in, the cost of repair, including removing/replacing the furniture, made the boat not economically repairable.

There may be yards which "scare" people into unecessary repairs, but IMO, there are blisters which need repair and it is unsafe to assume otherwise in all cases.

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I'll repost this for general interest...

Absolutely there are blisters and there are blisters...

If you have blisters...make darn sure that's all you have...I checked and discovered Pandora's box...most people just think all they have is blisters...and they are correct.

But some may have much worse and based on their "surveyor's" casual comments and a head in the sand approach...they may be sitting on something not very appealing to most boat owners.

Only a prospective buyer or owner can decide how far to go...I like to know what I'm sailing on.

psneeld said:

I'll repost this for general interest...

Absolutely there are blisters and there are blisters...

If you have blisters...make darn sure that's all you have...I checked and discovered Pandora's box...most people just think all they have is blisters...and they are correct.

But some may have much worse and based on their "surveyor's" casual comments and a head in the sand approach...they may be sitting on something not very appealing to most boat owners.

Only a prospective buyer or owner can decide how far to go...I like to know what I'm sailing on.

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Other than your comments about the Surveyor, which you don't know from Adam, nor have you seen a copy of the survey. I can agree with your assessment that most blisters are cosmetic but some need to be addressed. Have a great day! Go Cougs!!

For those that may be interested...

The best comparison to hydrolysis (the aggressive stage beyond blisters) might be cancer.

There may be lot of symptoms...maybe not. Most of the time it isn't cancer...thankfully.

The only way to know for sure is to do some tests...sometimes more advanced tests are necessary.

If it is cancer, the earlier you catch it the happier you will be because the chances of a full recovery may depend on it.

I am not trying to compare the personal issue here..just that it in my mind follows some of the same pathways of detection, diagnosis and cure.

If I am incorrect about the survey or surveyor's lack of depth, apologies to him and I hope the OP posts a bit more so I can adjust my opinion on his "blister" situation.

What a great thread about blisters,
First should anyone want a copy of the survey I'd be happy to share. As far as significant findings there was less than I expected. Which I can correct in just a few weeks time. (Other than the tank issue - that's going to take a few more) The surveyor did some hull sounding around the blisters and found they were localized. We did not do any destructive testing. However this surveyor is well respected in his industry, coming recommended by more than one brokerage in the area. Funny thing is I was looking at another Tolly that had similar issues and he was the surveyor on that boat too.

I am aware of two issues that will cost on this boat,

1. The tanks, enough said.
2. The moisture in the gel. We can explore taking off the piano hinge on the hatch in the cockpit and dry - hoping for no rot. Reseal and call it a day as well just aft of the diesel filler for the espar where the another moisture area is. One fixture being aftermarket and another being factory.

The other findings were minor, for about $500-700 I can correct all other findings on this survey. Most I will complete myself the others I will farm out while the tanks are being replaced.

I was present during the entire survey and feel confident in his work and experience. Engines have good compression too as well as the generator. I have oil samples being done on all so I can begin keeping records every other year or every year of the condition of the oil.

I will be hulling the boat for bottom paint this next spring or fall depending on remaining protection (after a little exploration) and will be addressing some of the larger blisters with fiberglass and epoxy. Furthermore I will be taking pictures during each hull out and add it to my maintenance book for future reference.

Cheers

bshillam said:

What a great thread about blisters,
First should anyone want a copy of the survey I'd be happy to share. As far as significant findings there was less than I expected. Which I can correct in just a few weeks time. (Other than the tank issue - that's going to take a few more) The surveyor did some hull sounding around the blisters and found they were localized. We did not do any destructive testing. However this surveyor is well respected in his industry, coming recommended by more than one brokerage in the area. Funny thing is I was looking at another Tolly that had similar issues and he was the surveyor on that boat too.

I am aware of two issues that will cost on this boat,

1. The tanks, enough said.
2. The moisture in the gel. We can explore taking off the piano hinge on the hatch in the cockpit and dry - hoping for no rot. Reseal and call it a day as well just aft of the diesel filler for the espar where the another moisture area is. One fixture being aftermarket and another being factory.

The other findings were minor, for about $500-700 I can correct all other findings on this survey. Most I will complete myself the others I will farm out while the tanks are being replaced.

I was present during the entire survey and feel confident in his work and experience. Engines have good compression too as well as the generator. I have oil samples being done on all so I can begin keeping records every other year or every year of the condition of the oil.

I will be hulling the boat for bottom paint this next spring or fall depending on remaining protection (after a little exploration) and will be addressing some of the larger blisters with fiberglass and epoxy. Furthermore I will be taking pictures during each hull out and add it to my maintenance book for future reference.

Cheers

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Good luck and welcome to the fun! It is the best pace in the world to cruise and that tolly out of edmonds will be awesome for fishing the best spot in the puget sound. Pictures are awesome so continue to share the journey

Pictures of the new vessel added to my albums. If anyone sees me on the water please feel free to shout out. Always have beer, wine or some eats aboard to share!

bshillam said:

Pictures of the new vessel added to my albums. If anyone sees me on the water please feel free to shout out. Always have beer, wine or some eats aboard to share!

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Congrats bshillam! What's the name of your boat?

We are thinking of naming, "My Heaven." However after spending some time with it we may change our minds. It was previously documented and we will be documenting in very short order as we plan on spending time in Canada.

bshillam said:

We are thinking of naming, "My Heaven." However after spending some time with it we may change our minds. It was previously documented and we will be documenting in very short order as we plan on spending time in Canada.

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Nice dinghy!

6-Pack said:

Nice dinghy!

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Wow! I think the Dinghy is worth 10K+.... That is a nice Looking Tolly as well.