Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

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KSS System

FF said:
For low cost one off GRP core hulls , this is a proven system.

Booklet Explaining KSS Boat Building Method - Kelsall Catamarans

www.kelsall.com/UniqueKSS/WhatIsKSS.pdf‎
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Actually not looking to do a GRP cored hull. Don't really need a lt-weight hull for a displacement boat.

And the steel hull will take quite a beating, including grounding with more minimal damage than a thick glass hull. Think ductility,....steel will actually dent to a great extent before puncture.

But you may have been reading my mind, as I intended to introduce this KSS system as the manner to build the PP cored superstructure. You beat me to it :thumb:



(PS: I have an alternative reason for constructing in this material method. I have in mind the same sort of construction for 2 off-shore motorsailers that may visit reefed shores....steel hulls sure sound appealing there. One of those designs is this 44 Rhodes. This one I found in Southern Md was a solid glass hull, its what got me to thinking, why not a steel hull.
Scroll down to the postings starting at #74
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/g...motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden-5.html

And what if one of the Pilgrims was to make a trip over to the Bahamas, or down to Cuba....lots of coral heads....steel sounds appealing)
 
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I do hope Mr. Pilgrim is getting a kick out of all this and will do better next time.
 
<Actually not looking to do a GRP cored hull. Don't really need a lt-weight hull for a displacement boat. >

Weight is not the only reason for a cored hull.

The insulation value and the sound damping are a help for many cruisers , and the ease of one off construction are also a plus. No interior hull moisture in lockers etc is also a plus.

IF weight is less of a concern by using almost as much GRP per sq ft as a solid hull, a cored hull can be remarkably strong.
 
OUT OF CONTROL ??
What are you talking about? Have I ventured far from this stated purpose?


brian eiland said:
Let me correct an impression some of you have about this 'redesign' I have in mind, before things venture off into never-never land.

I like the looks of this vessel VERY much just as it is. I am NOT proposing to change the looks of this vessel's topsides/superstructure.

Some of the changes I want to look at are:
1) the construction method and materials
2) possibly a minor length increase to expand the owner's stateroom
3) an adherence to the KISS principle for onboard systems
4) etc

If you look back thru the evolution of this vessel design you will find a number of changes that were made to the original design over the short span of its production. One most notable one was a change in the layout of the galley and the head arrangements. I think it was a good change. There was also a transom door added on later models....good option.

I want to study the details of this vessel design in more detail, and make subtle changes where deemed advisable.

Again I emphasis I am not looking to 'modernize' the vessel in the looks department. It pushes all of the right buttons for me there.

PS: On the title of this subject thread I referred to this design alternatively as a 'canal boat'. I think a much better term would be 'coastal cruiser'
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Where do you find the "flogging a dead horse" symbol?
 
From the original post I expected that this thread would wonder in and out of various aspects of redesigning. Am I missing something? I am not up to speed on all the discussions that have taken place elsewhere.
 
How do you tell if a bug is dead?

You see if it's legs are moving.

That horse is not dead but the real reason the post is NOT dead is that there are still people posting.

I still can't understand why people think a thread should end as soon as THEIR interest in it ends. Short attention span to be sure but why don't these people just go off and find something else to read??????
 
brian eiland said:
If you two guys hate this subject thread so much, why don't you just stop reading it,.... and go off and play somewhere else....or perhaps with yourselves. :thumb:
Click to expand...
:D Very funny & a very "crude" comeback. Apparently you have always had a secret desire to publish a "magazine" as this thread has evolved into that. "Brevity is the soul of wit". (Look it up.) :blush:
 
manyboats said:
How do you tell if a bug is dead?

You see if it's legs are moving.

That horse is not dead but the real reason the post is NOT dead is that there are still people posting.

I still can't understand why people think a thread should end as soon as THEIR interest in it ends. Short attention span to be sure but why don't these people just go off and find something else to read??????
Click to expand...


:iagree:
 
FF said:
Booklet Explaining KSS Boat Building Method - Kelsall Catamarans
Click to expand...

I've picked out some high-lights to excerpt from that 'booklet'

KSS stands for Kelsall Swiftsure Sandwich.

KSS is to forget all we know about traditional boat building. This is the hard part. The blinkers of what we know are very powerful. KSS takes the requirements of the final craft, the properties of the materials involved, the structure and what is efficient in the boat shop, and combines them into a common sense handling process.
Click to expand...
A full size, flat mould table, usually of melamine covered chipboard, is the basis of the technique. Butt strap joins underneath, join the table surface sheets and trestles to support the table top. The first table was make in 1973. All structural parts start on the table, which allows ease of laminating and provides a smooth finish for one side. Vacuum Resin infusion has been adopted and refined to suit the table, as the standard laminating technique.

The Materials – PVC Foam, polyester or vinylester E-glass skins for the whole structure.​
The basis – starting by making flat panels on a full size, simple, flat table.

The major time savings come from
* Working on a table, with a relatively small portion of the done on the boat.
* Picking up the finish from the table, for one side of all parts, plus edge treatment at the same time.​
*Resin infusion which produces the full panel in one shot.

KSS has been applied to every size from 8ft to 100ft.

Resin infusion became a KSS standard 8 years ago. It is the “magic” which changes the nature of the whole process of boat building. The boat shop can be clean and smell free for most of the time.

For more than twenty years, we used vacuum bagging techniques, to make foam sandwich panels on the KSS table. The only incentive to change was the improvements resin infusion offered. A high quality panel in the least time, made neatly and cleanly, and with reliability. A panel, of any size, can be made by one person. This is not sales talk. We do it at every workshop. The last workshop group made three 32ft. panels, in four days of hands on instruction to people who had not done it before, with the first day spent in other preparation work.

While working with liquid resins, does it make more sense to work on boat shapes or to do 95% of the work on a flat table, from which a smooth finish to one side is free, letting vacuum pressure do the hard work, to achieve the best standards? Everything in KSS follows from there.
Click to expand...






You might also go to his website and look under some of the specific headings. Here are two I might recommend:
Catamarans - Kelsall Catamarans - Boat Designs
Catamarans - Kelsall Catamarans - KSS Materials
Catamarans - Kelsall Catamarans - Boat Designs




….and another reference
http://www.stm-boats.com/articles/L8_The_Resin_Infusion_Story.pdf
 
If you look thru some of that KSS information and links I just posted, it's hard not to see that this is the ideal manner in which to build the relatively big flat panels of our decks, our cabin sides, and our cabin roof for the new Pilgrim design.

And these 'pieces' can all be built on a big flat horizontal table that produces parts with a 'finished side' to them, and the glass lay-up can be varied from part to part (main deck different than cabin side, different from cabin roof).


Set up properly this would all go much faster than traditional hand lay-up, with fewer people, be a much cleaner operation, and produce a superior resin injected piece.


Derek has worked with PVC foams like this for years, and much prefers them for this process. That said, there are no set rules that the Pilgrim redesign could not utilize the same foam-cored panels for its superstructure. BUT, I also think that the newer resin-injected-ready polypropylene cores could also be utilized in place of his beloved foam.
 
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This Pioneer Econohull is for Brian.
 

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healhustler said:
This Pioneer Econohull is for Brian.
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Thanks Healhustler,
I was betting a few people over on another forum that are discussing retirement 'floating homes' on the water, that making the superstructure of their 'home' look more like a vessel could preclude some of the MAJOR hassles they get from the local city ordnance enforcers.

So I suggested they might just take the 'box-sort-of tug' superstructure of the Pilgrim trawler and build it onto a regular flat barge....propulsion power optional.

Healhustler was kind enough to do a photo-shop job for me....thank you sir.

It doesn't look bad, does it. I suspect it could pass for being the 'lead barge' in a string of work barges.....a rather fancy one at that :thumb::D

Retirement Houseboat or Floating Home
 
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healhustler said:
This Pioneer Econohull is for Brian.
Click to expand...

Wow nice planning hull!!!!

Of course that's...based on my years of experience on boat design forum, a quick glance of a photo and seeing that it's got flat sections, anearly flat bottom and an immersed transom...it's GOTTA be planning....;););)....:D
 
We will get back to 'building' that redesigned Pilgrim vessel (more superstructure ideas) a little later in this subject thread.

Meantime its Labor Day weekend and I will be taking a long trip back from Thailand (half way around the world) to DC, and then down to the ocean for a reunion dinner. So I will be out of touch for a while.

I was looking thru some of the material I had collected on this Pilgrim design, and ran across this 'blog' that a gentleman wrote about his and his wife's experience with choosing and buying a Pilgrim for themselves. Thought some might find it interesting.


Thoughts on Buying a Trawler:
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]In today’s (2011) economy, I expect that it is quite easy to buy a Pilgrim, and not so easy to sell one; just like any other boat. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Trawlers have always been expensive. In Mike Andersons (well written) blog on Cruising Cleo, he notes that the January, 1987 price of CLEO (#34) was $187,475 + $33,820 in options, for a total of $221,295 + tax (I presume). Since CLEO has a flybridge, I expect a good chunk of the option package was to pay for that singular item. FYI: This translates to $441,072 according to an on-line CPI calculator. Unfortunately, todays buyer expects a more refined product, driving up the price even further. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]In 1988, starting with hull #38 Gozzard made some changes to the boat, raising the foredeck and adding the raised fiberglass bulwark in the bow among other things. Changes to tooling need to be paid for so I expect the last eight boats cost more than CLEO. Nobody has offered up any information on what they originally paid for their boat when new, and I haven’t been cheeky enough to ask. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]Others have noted what the current asking prices are, as found on Yachtworld or other brokerage sites. In reality, if you are working with a broker that advertises on Yachtworld, they can produce a report that indicates what the asking price was and the final sales price for a class (brand) of boats. We did this when we were purchasing LIBERTY, not that it made any difference one way or another. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]Our Buying Story: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]We realized we needed a bigger boat in late 2008. I had poured a ton of time and money into the rebuild of a 30’ double ended, Finnish built trawler. This was to be our "last" boat so the time and money was no object. Time marches on, priorities change and events in our lives made us realize we weren’t going to live forever. My wife has always wanted to live aboard a boat and do some serious cruising and we realized that 30’ is just too small for that. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]As we are approaching early retirement age, and are not exactly independently wealthy, we realized that to make this dream happen, we would have to purchase a boat at a price that we could afford. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]In the 40’ range, this probably means an older boat. An older boat usually needs some work. We knew the sooner we bought the older boat, the more time we would have to fix its probably many ills and the cheaper it would be, affording us a bigger boat than if we waited until the last minute and tried to purchase a boat that is "cruise ready" if there is such a thing. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]Many of you are probably in or have been in the same boat. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Buying LIBERTY was easy. Well, in the end it was easy. I had been dragged to a number of yards to look at trawlers for one of my buddies who was making the switch from sail to trawlers. Since I have been known to rain on people’s parades, he thought I would be a good person to have along since I seem to be able to point out issues and have a good idea on what it would take to correct the problem. So maybe I dampen the parade a bit. This was great experience, as we looked at boats that I wouldn’t have given a second thought and learned a little from each one. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]When it came time to find a boat for ourselves, I had a prioritized list. Boat deck (no more davits off the stern), one main stateroom (no chopped up interior with tiny cabins for seldom seen guests) etc. I started to spend many hours perusing the internet, looking for the ideal craft for us, seeing how well they matched our list. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]Every time I came across a reference to a brand I didn’t recognize, another search was done to see if the boat might meet our requirements. After a while I thought I had exhausted the list of boats that had produced and we started to look at the very few brands that made the short list. We were well into 2009 and June of 2014 (our projected retirement date) was looming right around the corner. Nothing had caught our fancy. We had been eyeballing Krogen 42’s from afar and while somewhat pricy, thought we should give them a look close up and personal. At the same time I came across a rather obscure reference to a Pilgrim. Pilgrim; never heard of one, what is that? While we are generally traditionalists as far as boats go, the Pilgrim seemed a bit "out there". They reminded us somewhat of turn of the century fish tugs that used to ply Lake Erie, back when Erie, PA was the largest freshwater fishing port in the world. So the shape and profile wasn’t necessarily a bad thing, but Pilgrims were different. Of course our 30’ Finnish built trawler was also a duck-out-of-water on Lake Erie, so we can live with "different". [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]In 2009, there were about 40 Krogen 42’s for sale; about 10% of the total number built. There were about 4 Pilgrims for sale, roughly about 10% of the total number built. That meant a lot of choices if you want a used Krogen, not so many choices for a Pilgrim. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]We scheduled a trip to Annapolis in early October of 2009 to look at a Krogen 42, and a Pilgrim. This would be the final boat viewing trip of the year. After that it would be back to doing internet searches for the winter. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]We saw the Krogen first. BIG Boat. Now I knew where that 40,000 lb displacement was when viewing the boat out of the water. She had active fins, 12,000 hours on the engine and came with a sizable price tag. She also had some issues that were beginning to surface, like any 20+ year boat would have. The problem was that she was built more for the ocean, and I am not fond of long passages out of sight of land. Being built for the ocean also meant that when things needed rebuilt or replaced, there was a lot of material and labor involved. The inside was a lot more cramped then we expected. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]Off to see the Pilgrim. The Pilgrim is not built for long passages on the ocean; that we knew. As a coastal cruiser, she appeared neither over built nor under built, and had a somewhat delicate look to her. We are a fan of L. Francis Herreshoff and once had a 29’ double ended ketch designed by him. She was built of wood, exactly to the specifications laid out by Herreshoff and while also fairly delicate looking, was engineered to have the strength necessary for her intended use. Things do not need to be massive or overbuilt by a factor of 10. That just means that something else will fail first. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]Back to the Pilgrim. We did a quick walkthrough. If we don’t like what we see at first glance, there is no use wasting our time and the broker or owners time. Actually, we did like what we saw. My wife looked at me and said, "this is the boat"; and so it was. Well maybe not that particular Pilgrim, but some Pilgrim. I thought I had made it clear to the broker that if we liked the boat I was going to go over it with a fine tooth comb. He thought I was going to have it surveyed by someone else at a later date as he had other appointments. I finally made it clear to him that this "was the survey". Since he couldn’t just leave me there for the rest of the day alone (brokerage rules) he needed to call the owner to see if it would be ok for me to be there without him. As the boat had been on the market all summer with no offers, the owner thought "why not?". [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]After doing our hull survey it was time to check out the interior. She was rough and in need of some TLC. That was a good thing. I could see why there had been no offers made. Since I seem to tear everything up anyway, it didn’t bother me that she needed work. The previous owner had the engine and bow thruster replaced a few years prior, and the engine only had about 400 hours on it but a lot of people don’t look at that. This means the big stuff is sort of done; I can do the rest. Sure we found some issues, but nothing that we couldn’t do given some time and money. Maybe this is the Pilgrim for us. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]At the end of the day, we decided that we would make an offer but wanted to spend a day or so thinking over what our offering price should be. We would do this from home, a seven hour drive away. This keeps you from doing something silly as buying a boat is really an emotional decision. A sound financial investment, it is not. Since we were there alone, we had a glass of Charles Shaw (aka Two-Buck-Chuck) on the Pilgrim and toasted our good fortune in actually finding a boat that will hopefully allow us to fulfill our dream, locked up the boat and said goodbye to what we hoped would be our new family member. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]As I said earlier, buying LIBERTY was easy. The previous owner wanted out. He was getting out of boating, period. We wanted in. Negotiations went quickly and smoothly and we both ended up happy, or at least we were happy. Now the real fun begins.[/FONT]

Thoughts on Selling a Trawler:
(you can read the remainder of this story on the attached PDF)[/FONT]
 

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Final Thoughts:
I think Gozzard had it right. If you read the old Pilgrim sales brochures, there is a lot of verbiage related to how people actually use a boat, or how we use a boat. The majority of it is as true today as it was back in the early 80’s. Maybe that is why we ended up with the Pilgrim.
Sometimes I wonder about a lot of boat owners, who seem to gravitate towards boats that are built for guests, rather than for the owners. A number of sailboat friends who have been aboard have commented on the intelligent use of space and how everything just seems to fit together. We do know where people go when they want to be comfortable and get out of the hot sun, which is fine as we enjoy the company. The few pure powerboat people who have been aboard have commented that 7 knots is way too slow for them. The inside of a Pilgrim still reminds you that you are on a boat. We have been aboard some powerboats that appear to be the inside of somebodies small condo. When we are aboard, that is where we want to be; on the boat. If we wanted a condo, we would get one. I suspect the go-fast crowd needs to get to where they are going in a hurry so they can get off the boat; they go someplace when the get into a dock.

Our biggest complaint with the boat is that sometimes we feel like we are at the zoo, except we are the center of attraction. When we are anchored, boats like to saddle up real close to us to get a good look. I keep hoping they will throw us a piece of fruit or something. When transiting, some people like to pass close aboard, waving and throwing us a nice wake. We really didn’t want the wake, thank you. There is no such thing as a slow pass in this neck of the woods.
Dave Forsman
LIBERTY
1988 Pilgrim #43

http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/d/r/drf6/LIBERTY.html
 
great name, Slo Coasta

The only photo I found of this vessel so far....what an appropriate name :thumb: Slo Coasta

Slo Coasta 800.jpg



Got to love that awning out front, ala some old timers like these two VERY fine ladies hanging out on my computer

innisfail%203.jpg
IMG_2555.JPG
 
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