Honking ferries in NYC

Hi,

We started a discussion in NYC recently, because at the beginning of June the ferries from a pretty near ferry station started to use their horns expressively.

We have approximately 1,000 horn blasts a day, which is really disturbing!

I would like to ask if ferries in your town also use their horns (4 times) when leaving the dock...

There are USCG rules about horn soundings when approaching or departing a dock/wharf/pier and entering into a channel. Perhaps someone in the ferry system realized they were doing it and instituted a new "mandatory" horn rule to reduce liability.

Or maybe the accident already happened and they go their butts sued because they hadn't sounded the proper horn signals.

That's NYC.

In Memphis there was a law against honking one's car horn. I have no idea if it still holds but noise pollution is largely ignored these days.

In the 50s (and perhaps the 60s) there was a law against loud pipes on cars here in Washington State.. The "fuzz" had meters that measured the noise levels whey you rev'ed up your engine. If you made about 1/3 the noise of a typical Harley (now) you got a ticket. Sometimes the "good old days" were actually good.

But if Harleys were made to sound like a new Toyota Corolla there would be very few harleys. And that would be VERY good.

Here in Campbell River BC the local ferry gives one short blast just as it is about to depart from the terminal. Also from time to time we hear a series of short blasts which of course causes everyone to run to see which sailboat is now impeding the flow of our public transportation system.

USCG rules require that a commercial vessel of a certain size or greater sound one long blast and three short ones before moving astern. It is the law.

There was an interesting article in the New Yorker recently about how a kayaker complained to the ferry officials that they were violating the law by not sounding. They started sounding as required by law and now many, many more are complaining about it.

You can't win!!!

David

Conrad said:

Here in Campbell River BC the local ferry gives one short blast just as it is about to depart from the terminal

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Same in Powell River.

Conrad said:

Also from time to time we hear a series of short blasts which of course causes everyone to run to see which sailboat is now impeding the flow of our public transportation system.

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I call that the "Sound of Summer".

First time I heard the Vallejo ferry blow its horn was earlier this month although I have been boating in the area for over two years. I was nearing the ferry building (running parallel to shore) when the ferry started to back up (to head for its berth across the strait, thus the passenger-less departure was not in the published schedule). The ferry gave only one short blast, not the required three short or one prolonged blast. That was better than the usual practice of nothing but not very seaman -like.

In Victoria, the two tugs towing/pushing the fuel barge each made three short blasts as each approached the end of the docks even though the small, assisting tug was going forward and the main tug was pushing with its stern:

Wolf said:

Hi,

We started a discussion in NYC recently, because at the beginning of June the ferries from a pretty near ferry station started to use their horns expressively.

We have approximately 1,000 horn blasts a day, which is really disturbing!

I would like to ask if ferries in your town also use their horns (4 times) when leaving the dock...

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The answer is yes..they do.

I prolonged blast leaving the dock...3 short meaning operating astern propulsion. Mandated by Rules of the Road and if something happened they would be found at fault for not sounding unless the Captain Of the Port (USCG) mandates (may even need Secretary level approval) for "community reasons" it doesn't have to be done.

Could be worse...you could live near one of the airports or heliports...

I'm a little surprised at the amount of discussion. It's all spelled out clearly in the NavRules:

Rule 34 (Inland):

(a) When power-driven vessels are in sight of one another and
meeting or crossing at a distance within half a mile of each other,
each vessel underway, when maneuvering as authorized or required
by these Rules:
(i) shall indicate that maneuver by the following signals on her
whistle: one short blast to mean “I intend to leave you on my
port side”; two short blasts to mean “I intend to leave you on my
starboard side”; and three short blasts to mean “I am operating
astern propulsion”.
..
(g) When a power-driven vessel is leaving a dock or berth, she
shall sound one prolonged blast.

No need to guess or rely on what you heard somewhere. You can download the NavRules book for free. It's written in (relatively) plain English.

This section is pretty basic; everyone piloting anything as substantial as a trawler ought to at least know Rule 34. I'm not sure how you can even make passing and crossing arrangements with commercial vessels unless you know what they mean when they say "one whistle" or "two whistles".

BTW, there is no (g) in International rules. So I assume the discussion about a ferry issuing one prolonged and three short on leaving the dock was in US inland waters.

Wolf said:

Hi,

We have approximately 1,000 horn blasts a day, which is really disturbing!

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That's part of the ambiance of a marine environment. Enjoy!

Most ferries I've seen are double ended. So which direction uses "astern propulsion"?

Bob

The ones with a "stern". This is the difference in either a long single blast or 3 short ones.

jukesy said:

The ones with a "stern". This is the difference in either a long single blast or 3 short ones.

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Not true...I can be One prolonged for leaving bow first, Or one prolonged and 3 short short for leaving stern first. It's never one or the other...

BobH said:

Most ferries I've seen are double ended. So which direction uses "astern propulsion"?

Bob

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Neither. They leave going forward. Swap nav lights, propulsion units, and whistle signals.

djmarchand said:

USCG rules require that a commercial vessel of a certain size or greater sound one long blast and three short ones before moving astern. It is the law.

There was an interesting article in the New Yorker recently about how a kayaker complained to the ferry officials that they were violating the law by not sounding. They started sounding as required by law and now many, many more are complaining about it.

You can't win!!!

David

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I really hope that you aren't right... I was also mentioned in that article as one of the complainers... ;-)

markpierce said:

That's part of the ambiance of a marine environment. Enjoy!

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10 blasts a day would be enjoyable, but 1000 a day are way too much! ;-)

CaptTom said:

I'm a little surprised at the amount of discussion. It's all spelled out clearly...

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No need to be surprised. There are those who think doing a crazy Ivan when burdened is perfectly acceptable "seamanship" yet criticize a tug master for using standard sound signals for the operation they are engaged. Shouldn't be surprised at all.

I've noticed little consistency among professional mariners regarding sound signals when leaving the berth/dock. Recent examples:

1. See post #7 about the two Victoria tugs pushing/guiding a barge each giving three shorts each.

2. Post #7 about Vallejo ferries making no signals going stern first except once giving one short when I was approaching.

3. Richmond tugboat going stern first making no signal and popping out 50 yards in front of me.

4. Passenger ship leaving San Francisco giving one prolonged signal, and then repeating the signal after a couple of minutes after it started making headway, going stern first.



The above are observations.

I'd do a "crazy Ivan" anytime it's safe and otherwise reduces the possibility of damage or injury. Ever been forced to make a sudden course change as when other boats aren't following Colregs?

The posts which cite USCG rules are correct and due to litigious liability I believe you will see less of the "sheel be right" mentality and more of the "the book says" mentality.

Not that I am standing for one more than the other but as a former County Sheriff we had rules in place when deputies should use their siren and flashing lights and when they shouldnt based upon their reponse code. However their was always a line at the bottom of the p and p's that allowed for officer discretion based upon special circumstances.

I just hope the waterways dont become as noisy as the roadways.

Naval Shiphandler's Guide pp 154 - 155

"It is always prudent to have sound signals as a backup if radio communication fails."

"Three very short blasts tells the tug to increase to full speed in the direction it is already going."

NAVAL SHIPHANDLER'S GUIDE | U.S. Naval Institute

It's difficult to make headway going astern.

Wolf said:

I really hope that you aren't right... I was also mentioned in that article as one of the complainers... ;-)

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Breaking News: Cities are Noisy | Working Harbor Committee

Ferry Horns, a Safety Regulation, Cause Disturbance in Battery Park City

gwkiwi said:

I just hope the waterways dont become as noisy as the roadways.

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In Battery Park City, NYC the waterways are now even louder than any street around here...

I used to work at the staten island ferry as an marine electrician,and yes,they are required to blow one long one,and three short blasts when leaving the slips,both in manhatten,and staten island.Since the fender walls of the slips covers about 95% of the entire ferry,the cg considers them to be backing out,regardless of which end is in control.As to the ferries not blowing the horn,in fifteen years I worked there,i never saw a captain fail to do so,hence that poster is incorrect.If they did fail to do so,they would be fired immediately,as the port captain takes every cg rule seriousely.

I cannot comment as to whether the private ferries have been following the rules,or have just begun so as suggested by the video.

If it`s noise vs collisions and drownings, noise wins. But then, I can`t hear the noise from here so fortunately it`s NIMBY.
Are the complaints mainly from people onshore?
If so, is that like buying a house next to an established busy airport and complaining about noisy airplanes coming and going?

Sometimes the rules need to be enforced, but it's nice that common sense is sometimes applied. There is a world of difference between the chaos of NYC harbour and a sleepy fishing village, so a blanket rule with no exceptions doesn't really make sense. Personal dsicretion is a good thing. A ferry captain should have the common sense to make the call. If not, he shouldn't be a ferry captain.
If everyone is using their horn in a busy harbour to signal every manouver, the effect is diminished.

I have yet to hear any local boat sound its horn. Its just the sound of seagulls and waves lapping around here. (and my rattly old volvo)

Rule 34 (Inland) doesn't really leave any discretion: "When power-driven vessels are in sight of one another and meeting or crossing at a distance within half a mile of each other" they SHALL sound the appropriate signals.

In that sleepy fishing village, there probably isn't another vessel in a meeting or crossing situation that's in sight. So no horn is required.

In NY Harbor it's probably safe (from a legal standpoint) to assume that there's another vessel somewhere that could potentially be in a meeting or crossing situation, even if it's a kayak you can't see from the wheelhouse.

The rules actually make a lot of sense if you take the time to read and understand them.

CaptTom said:

Rule 34 (Inland) doesn't really leave any discretion: "When power-driven vessels are in sight of one another and meeting or crossing at a distance within half a mile of each other" they SHALL sound the appropriate signals.

In that sleepy fishing village, there probably isn't another vessel in a meeting or crossing situation that's in sight. So no horn is required.

In NY Harbor it's probably safe (from a legal standpoint) to assume that there's another vessel somewhere that could potentially be in a meeting or crossing situation, even if it's a kayak you can't see from the wheelhouse.

The rules actually make a lot of sense if you take the time to read and understand them.

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While I agree rules are an issue when they are "interpreted"...ya gotta admit that this rule

Rule 34 (Inland) doesn't really leave any discretion: "When power-driven vessels are in sight of one another and meeting or crossing at a distance within half a mile of each other"

has go to be the most or nearly so forgotten rule of all. I rarley hear sound signals at all along the ICW except for radio passing by cruisers. Even the USCG and LE guys don't do it.

And I can see why...the local homeowners would start a shooting war with all the blasts. Kinda like the complaint about NYC.

tinped said:

...in fifteen years I worked there,i never saw a captain fail to do so,hence that poster is incorrect.If they did fail to do so,they would be fired immediately,as the port captain takes every cg rule seriousely.

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That's right for the Staten Island Ferry, but not for all other (relatively small) private ferries in NYC. They haven't used their horns since we live here - and many people complaining say that they never used their horns before, only on foggy weather sometimes.

Besides the Staten Island Ferry hasn't such a busy schedule, like the ferries where we live. Between 6am and 7am we have approx. 25 ferries multiplied with (at least) 4 horn blasts...

AusCan said:

...
If everyone is using their horn in a busy harbour to signal every manouver, the effect is diminished. ...

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That's absolutely correct!!!