Tugs vs Trawlers

I've lurked for long enough, and love this site.* My wife and I would like to move up to a trawler class boat for use primarily on the East Coast and south, into the Carribean and Keys --maybe even as far south as Belize.
*
It's looking like we're going to have to make some compromises on the perfect choice.* We like the feeling of the tugs, like American and Nordic, along with the ability to get to up to 18 knots or so in a pinch.* We really like the pilothouse layouts.* The negatives on the tugs for us are general lack of quality deck space, including austere fly bridges, but understand in the northwest where these boats are popular there's probably less time spent on deck in cold weather.* The tug manufactures are*active in Annapolis, where we live, and we spent time talking with them this*month at TrawlerFest and the Annapolis Boat Show.**Are they practical in the Keys and Carribean?
*
We like the classic trawlers, too, like Kadey Krogen 44, Grand Banks, and comparable full displacement boats.* We love the deck space and well-appointed fly bridges.* But, my dear wife worries about going 8 knots with no ability to step it up a little to avoid bad weather.* Me, not so much.* I'm fine at 8 knots.* My main interest is solid, seaworthy and reliable.

Draft is another issue in the Carib/Keys too, *I would think.

We're even considering power catamarans, and visited the PDQ 34 this week.* Lots of space (except in the tight staterooms), and we're told they're very stable, and fuel efficient at both the classic 8 knot speed but capable of up to 20 knots --also*relatively shallow drafts.* Lots of positives there, it seems.* But for an old traditional guy like me, it's a bit of a leap of faith --and then, what about the availability of extra wide slips?

Maybe we're just over-thinking this, but wondering if we're missing a logical alternative.

May we please have your thoughts?

Thanks,
Bill

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Your budget will dictate your choices as much as anything. You are correct in looking at the AT and NTs. They do have a turn of speed combined with the ability to turn it down for efficient cruisng . Your wife will love 8 knots after the first few fill ups. Go to boat shows, walk the docks, devote some energy and don't listen to the brokers until you have narrowed your search. Good luck

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Sunchaser,
Thanks, I should have added we're thinking 1990 vintage, $250,000.

Tugs versus Trawlers

Here's my 2 bits worth...
We sold the 30' Tollycraft bacause it had 2 gas engines and when the price of fuel hit $150./barrel it was way too expensive to fill up
We sold the Nordic Tug 32 because it didn't have any outside living space. No command bridge, very small cockpit, no walkaround side decks.
We just closed the deal on a 40' Transpacific Eagle, which has everything we want. It's the roomist layout, 3 separate inside living spaces, single diesel shaft drive, pilot house with a great bench seat and table, huge open cockpit, island queen, separate shower / head, great tankage,*minimal outside teak, 14' 6" beam*etc. Ours is a 1999 and cost mid $200k.

-- Edited by Nordic32 on Monday 19th of October 2009 06:59:22 PM

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Sounds like you thought it through and made a good decision. What engine and how much tankage? Where do you keep the boat?

Tugs versus Trawlers

She's got the 5.9 litre 210hp., turbo'd Cummins with 500 gal. fuel, 250gal water and 30 gal holding tank.
We're berthed in*Victoria BC

-- Edited by Nordic32 on Monday 19th of October 2009 11:53:08 PM

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

First, I am biased.* We own a 2007 41-ft American Tug and absolutely love the boat!* In three years, I have nothing to complain about.* The fit and finish is superb and the systems are very reliable.* It is a very seaworthy boat and comfortable at any speed.* We slowed down last year to 9kts because of fuel prices and really enjoyed it.* This year, average around 10kts.

You need to talk to Greg Clark at Traditional Yachts in Jupiter.* Greg now has the AT-49.* He has taken his 41 AT to the Bahamas and can comment on draft, etc.

Best of luck with your decision!

Tom Law

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

As Sloboat says, Grand Banks are semi-planing (or semi-displacement if you prefer that term).* As such, they can be driven along at a pretty good clip if their engines are powerful enough and the limit on your gas card is high enough.

Sloboat mentioned the eruopa configuration which has features found on many pilothouse boats as well.* These are the covered side decks and covered aft deck.* If you intend to boat in an environment where rain, wind, and cold are the norm (like here), this configuration can give you quite a bit of outside space without actually having to be outside.* The often quite large covered aft deck is very*protected from the rain, unlike an open flying bridge which many of these boats also have, and the aft deck can even be enclosed with removable, windowed curtains for wind and cold*protection.* This configuration also has a larger boat deck area than other types of boats, although this is generally not able to be enclosed as readily*as it is on a sundeck boat.

The tugs are great in places like the PNW where the weather keeps you inside most of the time anyway, and some of them do have a small flying bridge.* Plus the cabin top can be used as an outside area I suppose.* But if sizable social gatherings oustside on the boat are part of your requirement, the tugs are probalby not the best suited for this.

Tugs versus Trawlers

I agree with the description of the GB Europas. Full walk around, covered side decks and cockpit, etc, etc. If the new GB 41 Zeus was about a half mil cheaper, I'd buy one! The 42 GB Europa, used, would be a better buy though. Although I've never owned a GB, they are sure one hell- uv- a nice boat! The Europas deliver just about everything my wife and I want in a boat.

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 20th of October 2009 05:31:24 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 20th of October 2009 05:33:16 PM

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Thanks everyone. I knew we'd get some good advice. There are quite a few Grand Banks in our price range for sale in our general area that we're looking forward to checking out. That may be the answer for us.

Nobody mentioned catamarans. Totally bad idea for us, do you think?

Bill

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Catamarans might be recommended if you were on a cat site. You are now on a trawler site.

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

GBs are lovely boats, but there are lots of others every bit as good. Again, walk the docks, go to boat shows and look at lots and lots of vessels. The hunt is great fun and you'll change your mind many times on what constitutes the "most important things."

Tugs versus Trawlers

Hiya Mr.. Koliver,
** I guesss that leaves out these** http://www.trawlercatmarine.com/* Oh, oh, semantics again

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Wednesday 21st of October 2009 04:18:43 PM

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Hello Mr. Oliver,
Sorry if I irritated anyone with the catamaran question. It was just an honest consideration regarding the kind of cruising we like to do, and I thought maybe others who ended up here might have had similar thoughts.

Anyway, we really appreciate the good advice from everyone.

Thanks,
Bill

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

I hope I didn't sound irritated! I am not. I was simply pointing out the obvious, and as RTF mentioned, there are semantics involved. I imagine, not having trolled the catamaran sites, that you will find lots of discussion where those members extol their cats as the ideal vessel for just the sort of cruising you do. Here however, the vast majority of us know little or nothing of value about catamarans, so you might get better results there than here.

On another thread there were page after page of argument about sedan v europa. This sounds like an opening for the same argument, ie if it is a cat, how can it also be a trawler?

I will now go into hiding while the debate rages.

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

koliver, you forgot to talk about the blowhardboaters who come on here and announce they are converting "to the dark side". If trawlers are the dark side, get the heck out and stay with bloboats. How arrogant to start their aquaintance here with disrespect.

And, while I'm at it, how about the Taiwan Tubs and Chubbies folks. Arrogance and ignorance. I wonder if they ever "get it"? Some even try to excuse their poor manners by explaining that "I have one too", "I use it as a term of edearment", or some other such drivel. Kind of like, I use the N word because I know some black people. It just doesn't fly in real life.

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

In my mind a "Trawler Cat" would be a great solution. Great deck area. Great stability at anchor. Lots of room on the interior, and many are very shallow draft. My boats not a trawler either. So what?

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Mr. 2bucks,
** I understand the regerence to Taiwan Tubs (which I personally find offensive) but have never heard the term chubbies.* If allowed, please explain.

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

CHB's ??

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Cats suffer from one overriding issue - width. No easy dockage in the PNW because of this curse/blessing.*Other + and - pale in comparison IMHO. The cat forums are the place to be if you want to learn and gab about them.*

Tugs versus Trawlers

Since many boat "types" are made up by marketing people to convey some sort of image that they think will make potential buyers think they are getting a boat with desireable qualities or characteristics that they probably aren't getting, the term "trawler" is totally meaningless unless you have a boat that drags nets across the bottom and catches stuff.* So "trawler," "europa", "sedan," "motoryacht," and "passagemaker" are meaningless in terms of actually defining anything real.* The terms have come to mean something, but only because the boat marketers have attached the names to a particular configuration for so long that they've become accepted definitions.

The terms "sundeck," "tug," "pilothouse," "lobsterboat" and maybe "sportfisherman" actually mean something that has nothing to do with the marketing people. Boats with these names actually ARE boats of this type.

So "trawler" can mean whatever you want it to mean.

Now catamaran means what it is. It's a catamaran. Is a catamaran a trawler? All depends on how you define "trawler." Some people define trawler as a way a particular boat is used, or it's operational characteristics. Longer distance cruising, seaworthy, slow, economical, etc. Nothing to do with the configuration of the boat.* So tugs, tri-cabins, sundecks, pilothouse--- they can all be trawlers if you like. * In that respect, I guess a catamaran could be considered a trawler, too, if it has these characteristics.

If you define a trawler as related to the configurations and characteristics of traditional fishing craft that bear that name, then I don't believe a catamaran can be a trawler, unless you have a catamaran that drags a net around and catches stuff.

A catamaran can have all sorts of positive characteristics as Carey described. But boats are like music--- how you feel about them is totally subjective.

So speaking strictly for myself--- and as a person who grew up in a place where catamarans were all over the place (Hawaii)--- I think they are the ugliest boats on the planet,* Even worse than trimarans. * I don't think catamarans have poor aesthetics, I don't think they have any aesthetics.

To me--- and this is totally subjective--- a big part of what I want out of boating is to be operating a boat that in its physical design captures what I feel boating is all about. So to me, it's about boats that actually did or do something other than just carting people around for recreation. So fishing boats, tugboats, patrol boats, military boats (back when they were designed with something other than a cost-reducing straight-edge), those are the designs I think of when I think of boating. So I want the boat I operate to have at least a degree of the design elements that are in the boats I respect.

So I don't care if a catamaran has tons of deck space, the potential for large cabins, stability (and in some conditions they are less stable than a monohull) and whatever other attributes they may have. For me, the bottom line is that they are butt-ugly and embody nothing that I value or admire in the way of boat design. I have never seen a catamaran--- power or sail--- that I thought was even remotely good looking.* So I am not in the "trawler cat" camp. To me, it's one or the other.

But I'm not going to argue with someone who feels exactly the opposite.

And a question for John B. Is a catamaran europa simply a variation of a monohull sedan?


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 22nd of October 2009 12:22:15 AM

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

RT Firefly wrote:

Mr. 2bucks,
** I understand the regerence to Taiwan Tubs (which I personally find offensive) but have never heard the term chubbies.* If allowed, please explain.

Click to expand...

Chubbies is a perversion of CHB brand boats, CHB's. Several people have commented on one of the CHB brand sites of their annoyance about being called chubbies.*Some are insensitive to the sensitivities of others and continue*to offend.
Very similar is the*posting of the same question across multiple boards, failure to follow board protocols, etc. The older I get the less I understand why people choose to offend. Especially as new members to any particular forum. I would think one would try to fit in, at least at first. But, I'm apparently wrong in that regard.

Ken


*

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

As a note to our new guests, a Taiwan tub/ Chubbie has been associated in the past with a vessel of inferior quality. Chung Hwa is builder in Taiwan that has been building vessels for many years. There have been many times that the "inferior" quality of these vessels has been pointed out. I own a Chung Hwa boat as of almost 3 years ago. As best as I can figure, this is how these things work:

1. An enterprising individual goes to Taiwan with a Builders Drawing and then contracts with a boat yard to build the vessel to his specifications. In our case, there was a gentleman by the name of Beryl Present who established Present Yachts, Inc.. The hull on our vessel is common to a lot of other vessels that are not Present Yachts, but they all have the same characteristics. Hand laid, very thick fiberglass in the same mold that had been used for a while.
2. Said enterprising individual specifies what superstructure and layouts he wants. The *superstructure seems to vary from different offerings. Ours has a lot of headroom, others not so much.
3. The service of an inspector is arranged, in our case Y.N. Fong, an associate of ABS Worldwide Technical Services, Inc., performed these inspections, then signed off at the completion of the build that all requirements were met.
4. Common propulsion and control components were specified. Our vessel was available with 12 different engine choices. Ford-Lehman, Perkins, Volvo-Penta, Caterpillar, Cummings and G/M were offered in different horsepower ratings. Steering, electrical systems, etc. seemed to be sourced from the same products the US boating community was accustomed to.
5. Electronics were probably installed to the customers order after the vessel arrived in the states. That is how North Pacific Yachts sets it up. *http://www.northpacificyachts.com/
6. The boatyard (this is my favorite part) built what it was paid to build by said individual. Teak decks? No problem. Lots of fuel tankage? It's in there. You want teak hand rails and lots of teak trim? We can provide. I am pretty certain that these yards were building what they were asked to build. Were these ships all top quality? It doesn't seem so. Were these ships all cra()? I would say no. The interior detail (our vessel has a beautiful teak interior), welded and hand polished large stainless hand rails and general workmanship of many of these ships is amazing.

In conclusion, in my opinion, many of these wonderful vessels are undervalued and eventually will be recognized for the quality they represent. These vessels are getting older and a studied and committed captain should be able to properly maintain his ship for a very long time. The support resources are very available. This forum has tons of talent. I rest my case.
Steve

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

As explained to me by shipwrights who have dealt with "Taiwan Trawlers" for many years the issue is not design or even components but inconsistency of build quality during the 70s and 80s. Whether these practices continue today is something I don't know.

A primary yard inTaiwan would be contracted with to build a particular kind of boat. The primary yard would lay up the hull using the molds they had built. They would proably also lay up the primary superstructure components. So far, so good.

But then, depending on the practices of the yard, the hulls and superstructure components would be contracted out to smaller, family-owned yards for completion into a finished boat. This is where the inconsistency came in. Different yards used different processes and materials. The classic example I heard a lot about was the materials used to stiffen the cabin sidewalls. Some yards would use marine ply. Others would cut up packing crates and pallets and use this. Packing crates and pallets in Asia tend to be made of very nice mahogany ply, but it's not marine grade so if it gets wet, say from a leaking window, it will succumb to moisture damage and rot faster than marine grade ply.

Years later when buyers would be looking for a boat and think a used CHB or whatever would fill the bill some would have a good experience and some would not. A lot depended on the previous owner(s). If they took care of the boat and fixed leaks and other problems as soon as they were spotted-- and fixed them properly--- the boat would probably be in good condition when it went onto the market. But if the boat was one built using less-than-ideal practices and materials AND the previous owners had done a less-than-stellar job of maintaining the boat, a new owner could find himself facing major and costly repair work.

All it takes is a few instances of a buyer having a really negative experience with a particular brand of boat and the brand's repuation is damaged. Not all Taiwan yards used this "sub it out" practice but a lot of them did.

So there is nothing inherently wrong with the boats that are lumped under the term "Taiwan Trawler." And any boat if neglected will deteriorate, be it a Marine Trader, Puget Trawler, CHB, Grand Banks, Fleming, or Nordhavn. But it's important that a buyer interested in some of the Taiwan-built brands understand the factors that could lead to one used CHB or whatever being an excellent buy and another boat of the same make and model being a potential money pit. A good reason to have a potential purchase checked out thoroughly by a competent surveyor who's very familiar with the brand you're interested in.

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

As Marin's, even some as old as 73 have survived to 2009. By 1980 the North American market was wise to the bad practices and they had mostly been stopped. As well, most of the bad practices that a few of those old boats suuffered have been fixed by now. I make the case that if it has survived to 2009, it must have been ok to start with or fixed by now.

Tugs versus Trawlers

I was told that the Taiwan made boats could not be put into charter service. If so. Why is that.
I was also told that a family actually would move onto the boats and finish the interior.* The reason some were so lavish and detailed
Old fish wife tales or fact?

SD


-- Edited by skipperdude on Friday 23rd of October 2009 11:40:52 AM

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Mr. Dude,
*** Offshore built vessels cannot be put into commerce in the US.* I think it's called the Jones act.* I've heard the same thing about families moving on board but don't know if it's fact or fiction.*

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

I think Catamarans should be looked at. Marin does make a point as far as aesthetics go. To me they are not ugly. But they are not pretty either....although some of the older Lagoon sailing cats had some nice lines.

With that said, my main issue with catamarans under 40ish feet is that the INSIDE space is too "compartmentalized"....much like a sailboat and one of the main reasons I got out of sailboats so early in my career. IOW, there is no real open space on the inside. You are crawling up and down steps and thru doors....and like you said, the staterooms on the PDQ 34 are almost an afterthought....very sailboat-like. Other than that, I am a huge fan of the PDQ34 and boats like it.

You also have to remember that Cats are very weight sensitive. The more weight you load it up with, the slower they go. IOW, PDQ may state that their boats can go 20kts.....if you load that puppy up to cruising weight a lot of your speed will disappear. I kknow a guy that has a Lagoon 43 Powercat that he cruised "daily" around 15-18kts. He loaded it up for a coastal cruising trip of a few weeks and all he could get was 10kts. He thought something was wrong with his boat.....Nothing was wrong with it.

Tugs versus Trawlers

Lots of Chinese and Taiwan made boats are in the charter fleets. So long as they are properly documented and satisfy state and federal regs*I can't see there is a problem. Lets face it, the better "brands" are heavily populated by the far east yards.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 23rd of October 2009 12:46:24 PM

Tugs versus Trawlers

Mr. Sunchaser,
** You have a point...
**** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920
** A company chartering out a foreign vessel is not using the vessel to move goods, they are providing a service but if*they wanted to personally take somebody on a paid tour* they*would have to be*a licenced captain*and they would*HAVE to use an American vessel.
**

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Friday 23rd of October 2009 02:00:40 PM

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Friday 23rd of October 2009 02:06:31 PM

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Friday 23rd of October 2009 02:08:23 PM