Blue Water Capabilities?

Being new to all this, I can't help but dream. (Boating seems like a mental disorder.) I dream about being able to take my boat to exotic ports around the globe. We all do I imagine. Sure, there is a lifetime of things to explore right here at home - and the NC coast itself could keep you busy for a very long time. But I wonder about being able to visit friends in Jamaica, motoring to St. Lucia, or even Bora Bora (ok... that's a stretch). I estimate her range to be around 800 to 1000 miles. Is any of this even remotely possible in a 35' CHB branded trawler with a single Perkins 135? I assume the Bahamas are a given, but realistically, what are the blue-water capabilities of these boats? If it doesn't have the ability and we wanted to leave our home life behind, what affordable vessel DOES have the ability to cruise the world?

(All of the blogs I am reading from globetrotting cruisers all seem to be in blow-boats.)

In my experience, your boat will take you just as far as your wife will let you go . I have the same dreams. In our area of boating I would need to get to the yucatan First then go south. On a cruise ship at Christmas I saw the there is hardly anything marina wise south of Cozumel. Even Cozumel has only one small marina. Belize has boating resources as best I could tell, and Honduras would be great boating. I guess if I everade it that far- the Pana Canal would be a breeze. Then the Gelopegus Islands and finally the Sea of Cortez. All this seems farther away than ever....... I think if Cuba opens up this would open up a stopping point on the way if you started from Florida.
I know how you feel. It may not be prudent- but you do have the range to pull something like this off. For me- that gives me much more capability than my planing hull Bayliner had.
Steve

Yep, the cheapest and easiest answer to this question would be a small well found sailboat. I mean no disrespect, but your boat would be an Island hopper at best. You can cruise all the way down the Bahamas And into the Carribean and go down the Windwards to South America and make your way West to Central America. That's a lot of cruising. Could you take your boat across big water, I guess you could...with proper planning and a little luck. The problem with a small sundeck is the center of gravity is so high which would make it roll badly and even potentially get knocked down in heavy weather or capsize. I am not saying that is what would happen but worst case scenario, it could. There was a couple that had a multi-month feature(series) in PMM that was crusing on a very "usual" 42ft trunk cabin trawler. They did have paravane stabilizers. Also a trunk cabin lowers the center of gravity.

To answer your question about affordable powerboats..... I still lean back to a motorsailor of some sort. A Willard 30 would do it I guess I don't think it would be all that fun. And what is your idea of "affordable"??? You can get KK42 in the high 100s(less for more of a project boat) and while they are more capable than your boat, I would hesitate to call them a true blue water boat. There just aren't that many manufacturers that have built to this market. And the ones that have are expensive. The Diesel Ducks I think are priced well for what they are and you can find a used one for cheapER but they are still gonna cost you a pretty penny. If I was gonna with an out-of-the-box boat, the DD would be it.

Good question and should bring good discussion.

Hey... I'm ok with island hopper. That's basically what I'd like to get out of our boat... if my little trawler is really feasible for this type of island-hop cruising. But can long-ish jumps be made with these boats and are they able to handle some of the small to medium surprises that the sea can throw at us during a crossing? Is it true that the boat can handle more than the occupants?

There is a concern with current and wind. While sailboats can use this to their advantage or just ride with it because of the somewhat different relationship they have with the ocean, if it blows up from the wrong way, I could find myself fighting it hard. I suppose that the nature of powerboats by definition requires a fight with the seas. Still, could a boat with a max speed of 8 or 9 mph really compete in the open ocean with this? And when you say heavy seas, how heavy are you talking? What are the max seas these boats can handle? (Loaded question I know because it depends on the capabilities of the skipper.)

Now, when I say "affordable" when I talk about a future upgrade, you have to realize that we are a modest income couple. We have more disposable income than most our age because we opted to avoid children in our lives. However, we are still working stiffs bringing down a gross off $100K at best. Not really your average yacht owner's income level. But until now, we really didn't need that much to maintain the lifestyle we liked. So to answer your question, I'd say $200K or so is my definition of an "affordable" boat.

I'd highly recommend you get a copy of "Voyaging under Power" by Robert Bebee. He was the first to really explore blue water cruising with smaller power boats. It was what inspired me to get my current trawler, a Krogen 42.

I'd have to disagree with Baker about the K42. It is a fine blue water boat, with a range around 3000 miles. It's only weak spot are the large saloon windows in a storm. But if you get a good weather router and avoid that kind of stuff, you should be fine. You can always make up storm plates for the windows if you think you'll encounter really rought stuff.

Nordhavn's are also very good blue water boats. Keep in mind that you're only going to cross big water for a few days, to go coastal cruising somewhere else. Pay good attention to weather and lots of boats can make that crossing. Nobody just goes out and cruises around in the big water without a destination.

Krogen Selene, and Norhavn are the three well known pleasure ocean capable boats. Some other name are* Northern Marine, Cape Horn, Seaton, Kanter, Seahorse, MoloKai, Royal, Delta, Westport, Choy Lee, to name a few.* The Seahorse Diesel Duck is probable the best bang for the buck.
*
There are a couple of past discussion on Passagemake.com that you might want to read; Ocean Crossing, Blue Water Boats, Full Displacement Vessels, Design stability.* Due a word search on ocean and they will come up with several others.
*

I agree the best for blue water/ocean crossing is a sail, motor sailor and/or capable long range full displacement trawler.** Our 58 ft Roughwater was designed to be along range coastal blue water trawler.* This summer a 58 ft Roughwater made the crossing to Hawaii which is pushing it. Anwyay, they are out there*but YOU have to have the knowledge and expereinse.****
*

*


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 29th of September 2009 11:19:41 AM

Here are a couple of good books to check out, Gentlemen's Guide to Passages South by Bruce Van Sant, it is a thorough guide to the route from Florida down to the Caribbean Islands or J.A. Roger's Cove Hopping South to the Virgin Islands which is similar, Steve Pavlidis has several thorough guides for specific areas along the way. Extended Power Cruising by Marlin and Joan Schuetz
There are only a few passages more than an overnight trip in an 8 knot trawler, but there are some which can get very rough & dangerous, if a good weather window is not waited for.

I am hoping to make the trip in the next couple of years.
Steve W.

If your budget is almost unlimited , an ocean worthy (there are damn few) power boat would be great.

Unfortunatly even tho they sport the trawler look, there are damn few trawlers that can go where a 30 ft sail boat can go in terms of ocean work..

The longer crossings will run close to 4000NM , and that's a specialized (READ EXPENSIVE) power boat indeed. Not a big deal in a rag bagger , just time.

Especially since an offshore power boat build or purchase cost will be about 300% higher than a "trawlery" coastal power boat.

The best advice was to get a sail boat if big distances , or even just a small Atlantic crossing is contemplated.

FF

Nothing planned... Only dreaming.

But the relatively "open" waters of the Caribbean Sea, Gulf of Mexico, (possibly Bermuda) and Leeward/Windward Island lower down in the chain are doable? I suppose THAT is my real question. In a perfect world - That's really where I want to go. Crossing the Atlantic or Pacific I am not holding my breath for.

There was an article a few years ago about a cruiser who did all the sort of places you have mentioned in an old Marine Trader 44. Nothing special about that boat, just get it ready by doing proper maintenance, carry appropriate spares, don't go when the weather is snotty, keep to relatively short hops and it can be done.
Sure the specialized boats designed for offshore voyaging will take less trouble to get ready for the trip and might be more comfortable in snotty stuff, but if you don't have that kind of cash and are prepared to be cautious, no reason to spend the extra 10x the price of your present boat.

Is "snotty" an official sea condition?

http://www.virtual-tours.com/idlewild-expedition-yacht

Here is a boat for ocean work, been for sale for a really long time , try $100K offer .

FF

If you could get that boat for 100K it would be a hell of a deal. Took the virtual tour, looked clean. That's my kind of boat.
Mike
Baton Rouge

http://specialblend43.talkspot.com/

This is a blog from a guy that outfitted at our dock.

New Stock boat , fixed the problems and is out doing it.

FF

To me it is all about how stiff a neck you want from hanging on to the helm in big seas.
The bigger the boat the better the ride.
Blue Water Schmoowater It is the Green water coming over the bow that bothers me. You could do most crossings in a motor boat or a row boat. It's been done many times but at my age it is all about creature comforts. Most boats can take a lot more than you or I. Do you really want to find out just how much that is? I have been boating on the ocean here in Alaska for 30 + years and it still scares the heck out of me. I can't count the times I have said "Man that really sucked"
Sail boats remind me of a weighted fishing bobber or a bouy. While most semi displacement boats are still like a balloon on the water. I don't think I will ever cross an ocean. Unless I win the lottery I'll tell you. I'm gonna need a bigger boat.

SD

Good points SD. A big following sea or a good wave or two over the top of the 35 CHB that started this thread would result in some honest moments. Especially if the water were 45 degrees!

-- Edited by sunchaser on Thursday 1st of October 2009 02:21:58 PM

GonzoF1 wrote:

Is "snotty" an official sea condition?

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Yes. I believe it may be British terminology. Good term for nasty, spitting, cold, blowy, wet conditions. Also refers to a (probably very young) Brit naval midshipman.

Snotty: or as my wife likes to say "really not nice out there"

Your boat could easily cruise the isalnds. Like someone said, just keep an eye on the weather. The shorter the "hops" the less surprises you will expose yourself to.

That's good to hear. We still have a lot to learn (including weather) and a fair amount of boat upgrades to make before we attempt it.

Hiya,
Gonzo, all the advice you've been offered so far is good but the one thing that has not been mentioned is sticking to a timetable. DON'T let your cruising plans be determined by ANY timetable. You have to be in a certain place at a certain time and the weather is either bad or forcast to be bad, leave the boat and take a bus, train, plane or car. More people have been killed by having to pick up aunt Tilley at a distant dock in bad weather than any other reason.
Keep your wits about you and be flexable reagarding weather.
I may be stating the obvious but please be safe.

But wait --- I don't have an Aunt Tilley

I hear ya'... and THAT is still something we are trying to work on. Patience. Decompression from fast-and-furious city life is proving to be a challenge. Especially because we are week-enders that still have jobs to goto Monday morning. So even our weekend hops around the Neuse have a certain amount of pressure associated with them. Still, we hope that by the time we are ready to do long runs up and down the ICW, we'll be ready.

I think it odd that Willard hasn't been mentioned on this thread. I wouldn't be comfortable overnight and beyond aboard anything short of a FULL displacement hull such as a Krogen or a Willard. I also think it's better to go to sea in one of the better Passage Makers than a sail boat. Sail boats don't have the volume fwd to force a vessel to rise up to a sea and the inertia of masts and other rigging aloft while pitching causes the bow to plunge too deep. The ideal vessel offshore is a full blown steel Passage Maker w twin engines or serious get home power.

Eric Henning

nomadwilly wrote:

I think it odd that Willard hasn't been mentioned on this thread. I wouldn't be comfortable overnight and beyond aboard anything short of a FULL displacement hull such as a Krogen or a Willard. I also think it's better to go to sea in one of the better Passage Makers than a sail boat. Sail boats don't have the volume fwd to force a vessel to rise up to a sea and the inertia of masts and other rigging aloft while pitching causes the bow to plunge too deep. The ideal vessel offshore is a full blown steel Passage Maker w twin engines or serious get home power.

Eric Henning

Click to expand...

Eric, I mentioned the WIllard in my first post!

*

"Sail boats don't have the volume fwd to force a vessel to rise up to a sea and the inertia of masts and other rigging aloft while pitching causes the bow to plunge too deep. The ideal vessel offshore is a full blown steel Passage Maker w twin engines or serious get home power."


I'm sure the thousands of sail boats that have circumnavigated the world over the past 100 years would be amazed to learn this!

FF

"Ideal passagemaker" vs* " Can my boat do it" are two very different issues. I'm with Baker that a 35 CHB can do the Islands tour. That assumes a very big if - IF the*vessel is properly maintained and *Captain and crew are properly**funded, experienced and prudent to do it safely. Me, I drool over Dashew's spartan (not cheap though) FPBs.

And even though FF is right about the kazilliions of sailboats, my remarks on this post are for Trawler Forum. Having said that, it is amazing to see how the newer sailing yachts are resembling trawlers, at least above the water line.

Just stating the obvious Fred. The excessive ballast, the odd shape of the hull, the inefficient propulsion system (systems) and the cumbersome masts and rigging frequently (I'm sure) don't make a sailboat as seaworthy as it could be.

Eric Henning

nomadwilly wrote:

Just stating the obvious Fred. The excessive ballast, the odd shape of the hull, the inefficient propulsion system (systems) and the cumbersome masts and rigging frequently (I'm sure) don't make a sailboat as seaworthy as it could be.

Eric Henning

Click to expand...

Eric, you do realize that the sails are considered a "propulsion system" and I would have to say that they are pretty darned efficient. *

I've always been under the impression that the sail made the boat inherently more stable by counteracting the roll. It seems that quite few designers are now offering the steadying sail as part of the "trawlers" system as a stabilizing option. The Diesel Duck line of boats utilizes the steadying sail in most of his designs and even claims the sail to be a get home system. I always thought sailboats to have a better A/B ratio than most trawlers witch adds to initial inherent stability.

Sailboats are for sure a different ride than a trawler, but sailboats seem to have more stability (not necessarily a better ride) designed into them from the drawing board vs most of the off the shelf* modern trawlers.

Conall
conallsboatbuild.blogspot.com

What you consider "an odd shaped hull" is the most efficient moderate speed hull shape for that displacement.

Most sailboats , like TT can obtain SL 1 with tiny effort , which is why (coupled with more suitable smaller engines) many sailboats will get 10MPG !

An almost unheard of level for cruise speed motor cruiser.

Our 33ft ,90/90 burns .7 of a gal at 6.5K inshore on the ICW.

With 25 years of operating and at least 7 trips up and down , I'm sure of the fuel burn.

Close to 10nmpg even with 7000lbs of "useless " ballast and close to 1000lbs of "useless" mast.

That's why a new trend is to get a sail hull, cut down the mast to lazy man proportions and install a modern small diesel (J Deere marinizations of the 4 cyl , no turbo) .And bigger fuel tanks.

A neighbor in FL also used a diamond saw to reduce the ballast and draft , installed a good keel shoe and has a very useful OFFSHORE cruiser.

Sure he has half the ballroom of the typical TT ,and no Oxygen tent,

but he can go to Bermuda , then to the Carib with out the problems and dangers of the average TT "trawler".

FF