Mark's Coot

markpierce said:

I want to hear Craig's wife's version of her conversation with Perla.

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I'm sure it's akin to the telephone game we played as children and I can only paraphrase my wife Jennifer's version.

Essentially it was the deposit check you dropped in the mail to have the Coot built. Both of them where astonished that anyone would purchase an item that large sight unseen.

No idea about Perla but Jennifer won't purchase a pair of shoes without trying them on first. She thinks I'm crazy purchasing items online. Purchasing a boat that not only hasn't been built yet, but you've only seen a drawing on the computer for them is quite extraordinary.

Of course they never imagined the amount of time and research you put into it, only the transaction itself. Neither of them have thousands of posts on a forum and in Jennifer's case at least, no lifetime of sailing to draw from either. They also never mention, as you have in an earlier post, that you've purchased a boat in similar fashion years earlier.

Way I see it... is:

No matter what anyone on the sidelines may think regarding Mark's choice for a boat builder, its looks, the design, or his unusual manner of purchase... “Proof is in The Putting”... Mark apparently made an outstanding set of decisions for a product (boat) that properly cared for could last in good condition for more than a couple of lifetimes!

I give Mark three (3) Thumbs Up!!!

CPseudonym said:

Take my word for it, Perla's rendition of this story is priceless.

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I have to make the trip to hear the "unvarnished truth" about Mark's decision? What about the rest of the guys who have religiously followed the "Coots" story?

Come on, Mark! Give Craig license to publish the "Coot's" biography!

Marin said:

Reverse-rake windows ALWAYS look bad to me, no matter what boat or ship they are on. I totally understand the reason for them and on vessels that benefit from the reverse rake I don't argue their presence even though they still look bad in my opinion. Function over form in these cases.

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If you posted that for "shock value," you've succeeded.

Other than their obvious functional value, North Sea windows add a "bulldog" look which complements the work boat's profile. They depict the "seriousness" of the vessel's struggle to move forward. I don't even want to imagine the "Coot" with any other kind of windows. They are perfect!

SeaHorse II said:

If you posted that for "shock value," you've succeeded.

Other than their obvious functional value, North Sea windows add a "bulldog" look which complements the work boat's profile. They depict the "seriousness" of the vessel's struggle to move forward. I don't even want to imagine the "Coot" with any other kind of windows. They are perfect!

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Perfect is a BIG word!

Art said:

Perfect is a BIG word!

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Not only is it a big word but a word that can only be used by the beholder...in this case, ME!

Beauty, or ugliness, is in the eye of the beholder. I don't go along with the bulldog thing. To me, it's just an awkward design element that fights with all the rest of the Coot's lines.

A long time ago when the topic of these windows came up here I showed some photos of boats that have them-- one was a Selene I think-- to a fellow I see occasionally in the course of my work. He's a lead designer for Teague (aka Walter Darwin Teague), the design firm that has done the interior design for every Boeing passenger plane since, IIRC, the 314 Clipper. The company does all sorts of industrial design from cars to can openers but their office in Everett does only airplane work. My acquaintance conceived the interior design for the 777 which totally changed the look and function of a jetliner's interior and has been the baseline for all our interiors since including the 787, 747-8, and the Sky Interior for the 737.

He took one look at the photos I showed him and his immediate reaction was " Yuck." He then proceeded to give me a half hour explanation in design terms why that design element is so bad. The forward motion thing is all I remember of it but he had other reasons, too.

This doesn't change the fact that if someone finds them pleasing then they are pleasing to that person and they are not wrong for thinking so. But it was interesting to hear in design terms why I have the reaction to them that I do.

Usually form folows function and all is in harmony.

For night operation the fwd wind screen cant be beat as it is dash reflection free.

What works is prime , for folks out in dark air.

Marin said:

To me, it's just an awkward design element that fights with all the rest of the Coot's lines.

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Since the forward raked windows go against the swept sheer, they appear at first glance to be asymmetrical. A closer look at Coot's rear windows, its stack and complete forward leaning wheel house show that, indeed, it's not. Not only are the forward windows extremely functional (as FF points out) they are in agreement with good work boat design.

Me thinks, Marin, that a pretty face will turn your head every time.

Edit: I stand corrected about the "pretty face" thing.

Aesthetics aside, I'd say based solely on the numbers, the Coot is a fine choice! Personally I like the aesthetics too!

The base price of the Coot when I ordered her in 2010, $200,000, was 71% of the current price. I added about $35K for options, and spent another $35K for shipping and import tax/duties, and an ungodly amount for state use/sales tax.

FlyWright said:

Cut her loose on your keyboard, Mark. I'd love to read it, too!!

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Al, I think you'd best have a private, face-to-face conversation with Perla next week. I don't believe Perla wants to put it in print.

SeaHorse II said:

Me thinks, Marin, that a pretty face will turn your head every time.

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Yes it will. Which is why I instantly dismiss any boat I see with reverse-raked widows. To me they are nowhere near pretty and I would never have one. I equate it aesthetically to driving a Yugo.

Doesn't mean I think they are bad boats. The Coot clearly is an excellent cruiser which is why I was interested to know how Mark went about choosing it.

But when I see a recreational boat with reverse raked windows, be it a Sea Sport or a Selene, what's the phrase? It's dead to me.

And I would never want a boat looks like it has to "struggle to move forward." That's a very good description, Walt, but I sure don't see it as a positive one.

Wait a minute. Don't you own a series Land Rover?

Northern Spy said:

Wait a minute. Don't you own a series Land Rover?

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Yes, and the windows are raked back a bit and the fenders are rounded off. So even though it is basically square-shaped it still has elements that convey a look of forward motion. This is a 45-50 mph utility vehicle. There were no functional reasons to rake the windshield back and put rounded corners on the fenders that extended the length of the vehicle other than design aesthetics. The front of the vehicle is not raked forward, by the way. That's the effect of the wide angle lens.

What do you mean, forward-leaning doesn't connote speed?

Marin said:

And I would never want a boat looks like it has to "struggle to move forward." That's a very good description, Walt, but I sure don't see it as a positive one.

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On second thought, I think you are correct. Perhaps "effortlessly" would have been a better choice of words. (Sorry, Mark...it certainly was not meant to offend.)

markpierce said:

Al, I think you'd best have a private, face-to-face conversation with Perla next week. I don't believe Perla wants to put it in print.

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Jennifer either thus my para-phrasing.

I didn't say a boat with reversed raked windows can't go fast. I said it's appearance (aesthetics) are not in harmony with the look of forward motion.

The second photo is irrelevant to the point because the design of the human body is completely different than that of a car, boat, plane, etc. The faster it wants to go the farther forward it needs to lean. The human equivalent of the reverse raked window aesthetics would be to have some part of the racer's bodies in your photo leaning backwards.

markpierce said:

Seahorse doesn't advertise. I was curious about Diesel Ducks so did an Internet search. Seahorse's website came up, so I visited the site and found out about the Coot there. Further Internet searches of the company and its owner Bill Kimley found favorable third-party comments. Had several telephone conversations with Kimley before deciding to order the boat.

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Interesting your favorably dealing with Bill Kimley of Seahorse Marine. I meet him years ago thru a few emails we exchanged when he found some forum postings of mine on the subject of Motorsailers. He very much likes these type vessels, and at that time was going to start a production of one somewhere around 53-54 feet, monohull. Is wasn't too long after that he got started with the diesel Ducks instead. I had thought about visiting his yard since I was traveling back and forth to Thailand. I have always heard very positive things about this gentleman.

Its interesting also that he likes model trains. I never knew this. So happens I had some as a kid, and one time when I returned from working in SE Asia, I got hooked into going to a BIG layout convention. That was my downfall, I decided I would collect some for my old age. I've got way too many to put on a floating home .....boat. Had quite a layout at one time, but sold it when I thought I would move to Thailand full time...now in limbo about this hobby. I just like boats too much.

Bottom line as to why I wrote to you Mark. I assume your vessel is steel? If that is so, what comments would you offer to all of those naysayers about quality built modern steel vessels??....anti rust, maintenance, etc.

Marin in diguise?

Brian: I'm beginning to think that you are really Marin in disguise as your posts are carrying a similar finger print (look) as his. Am I right?

SeaHorse II said:

Brian: I'm beginning to think that you are really Marin in disguise as your posts are carrying the same signature (look) as his. Am I right?

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Clever call Walt! Will the real Marin please stand up!! :lol:

brian eiland said:

...

Its interesting also that he (Bill Kimley) likes model trains.

... I assume your vessel is steel? If that is so, what comments would you offer to all of those naysayers about quality built modern steel vessels??....anti rust, maintenance, etc.

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I'm in and out of the model railroad hobby too. Here I'm pictured at a fellow modeler's layout representing the Northwestern Pacific line from Petaluma and some miles northward.



The Coot is made of steel. It's strong and makes a low-production boat more affordable. Paint maintenance cannot be ignored, however. I have touch-up painting done as well as having fixed some painting defects. One has a separate set of worries compared to plastic boats, like I don't expect problems with water blisters and rotting deck cores.

SeaHorse II said:

Brian: I'm beginning to think that you are really Marin in disguise as your posts are carrying a similar finger print (look) as his. Am I right?

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Brian has a website in his signature the takes you to Running Tide Yachts on the other side of the country and the contact page is: Contact RunningTideYachts, Ltd.

So I doubt he is Marin............

SeaHorse II said:

Brian: I'm beginning to think that you are really Marin in disguise as your posts are carrying a similar finger print (look) as his. Am I right?

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I'm a different guy,...live part time Thailand, part time east coast near DC and Annapolis, Md

brian eiland said:

I'm a different guy,...live part time Thailand, part time east coast near DC and Annapolis, Md

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And part time on BoatDEsign.net.

Brian after the discussion on the Great Harbors I spent some time on the extensive thread on Dutch Barges as cruising boats. That is a great thread and you are there. AND I'm glad you are here.

manyboats said:

And part time on BoatDEsign.net.

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Don't remind me how much time I use to spend there ,....my Thai wife (relatively new) reminds me all the time of my 'excessive time on the computer'

Brian after the discussion on the Great Harbors I spent some time on the extensive thread on Dutch Barges as cruising boats. That is a great thread and you are there. AND I'm glad you are here.

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Thanks, I'll try to be a good asset.

markpierce said:

Pilothouse "trawlers" appealed to me such as Arctic and Nordic Tugs, but the Coot had more of the qualities I was looking for.

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So please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't seem to pick out another single-engined (diesel) full displacement boat under 40' in production. I know the reasons why most 'trawlers' between 25' and 40' are semi-displacement rather than true full displacement (race to the hook), but if one wanted a new boat and didn't need/want to get up on plane, the Coot seems to be the only alternative to the semi-displacement (and far more expensive) Nordics and ATs, no?

I've read here all the reasons why one would want to get up and go fast, but the difference between a boat with 85hp and one with 330hp would have to show up in the purchase price and at the dock, no?

Am I missing anything? Are there other full displacement boats under 40' in production I'm missing? I suppose the smallest Diesel Duck would also qualify, but it's more of a passagemaker than a coastal cruiser.

The new boats of today are the used boats of tomorrow, so I'm hoping Bill keeps churning out Coots and DDs for some time!!

Animal said:

So please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't seem to pick out another single-engined (diesel) full displacement boat under 40' in production. I know the reasons why most 'trawlers' between 25' and 40' are semi-displacement rather than true full displacement (race to the hook), but if one wanted a new boat and didn't need/want to get up on plane, the Coot seems to be the only alternative to the semi-displacement (and far more expensive) Nordics and ATs, no?

I've read here all the reasons why one would want to get up and go fast, but the difference between a boat with 85hp and one with 330hp would have to show up in the purchase price and at the dock, no?

Am I missing anything? Are there other full displacement boats under 40' in production I'm missing? I suppose the smallest Diesel Duck would also qualify, but it's more of a passagemaker than a coastal cruiser.

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I had some somewhat similar questions. In some correspondence with a broker up in the Mich area, I wrote:

brian said:

[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]Thanks for those observations Mike. When you mentioned the Lord Nelsen Tug, you were saying that it DID NOT represent a viable idea, is that correct?[/FONT]

[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]I actually find that too many of the trawler designs in this size range tend to put a master staterm in that stern area rather than the BIG saloon and aft deck that most Pilgrim have. I make mention of that here on a forum,....and there are a few good photos of the saloons and aft decks of the Pilgrims[/FONT]
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/ultimate-trawler-9123-8.html

[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]We can certainly put a little higher HP 6 cyl engine in as an option and push her a little faster, but going the dual engine route that a lot of the Nordic Tugs do doesn't make economic sense with the way fuel prices are going, and the cost added by a second power plant and running gear (and a more exposed prop situation) Either of these size boats are going to have the same displacement hull-speed limitations. If one whats to push them a little faster into the semi-planning mode, then they will pay for it with the extra fuel economy. No free lunches here.[/FONT]

[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]I do feel that the single engine configuration makes all the difference in the world in a number of different aspects.[/FONT]

What I am really unsure about is how well these would sell as a new boat at this particular time considering the 'glut' of used trawlers I seem to see at this time, and their ever lower pricing??

I think I am going to continue to research the project to build such a vessel in the most economical manner, but wait to make any commitment to go forward with the actually building until I have at least 2-3 committed clients (maybe one of them me).

But I appreciate your observations, and will gladly accept more if they come to your mind.

Regards, Brian

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His reply:

It was interesting to read your email and the response of a previous Pilgrim 40 client. If I may interject one other idea...I believe the Pilgrim, while a cool design with a dedicated following, doesn't exactly translate well into todays marketplace. If you look at the Nordic Tugs you'll see that while similar in nature...are considerably faster while burning an acceptable amount of fuel. From my perspective (that of a Broker that represents many boats and models) it is too slow and doesn't have the guts to go upriver in or across bars under less than ideal conditions. The Nordic Tugs will.

So while the Vinette was not a fast boat either, it did have plenty of power (Cummins 220B) to get you out of bad situations while still returning an acceptable fuel burn.

I do believe you have a valid concept (inexpensive and easy to build) but in todays world it needs to somewhat faster than the Pilgrim. Another boat that I don't believe would fit todays changing customer would be the Lord Nelson Victory 37 Tug.

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Animal said:

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The new boats of today are the used boats of tomorrow, so I'm hoping Bill keeps churning out Coots and DDs for some time!!

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My understanding is that Bill has two bare Coot hulls built (#s 7 and 8), but is awaiting firm orders while filling orders for his diesel ducks. Cormorant, Coot hull #5, might be available after its owners complete their SE Alaska venture this summer.

Coots #5 and #6 in November 2010: