Solar boating

Sunchaser,

In defense of California, they are doing what the rest of the country needs to do. Back in 1971 California was phasing out leaded gas and I as a hot rodder back then didn't agree, but as we all now know lead is a killer and boy has the air cleaned up over LA over the years. Now we are on a balancing act with CO2 emissions that can be addressed today by the private automobile's phasing out of gasoline use in favor of electric.

deckofficer said:

Sunchaser,

In defense of California, they are doing what the rest of the country needs to do. Back in 1971 California was phasing out leaded gas and I as a hot rodder back then didn't agree, but as we all now know lead is a killer and boy has the air cleaned up over LA over the years. Now we are on a balancing act with CO2 emissions that can be addressed today by the private automobile's phasing out of gasoline use in favor of electric.

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I know that the sun rises and sets on CA but it was the EPA and Ed Muskie that were the main driving forces for removal of tetraethyl lead from automotive gasoline. Clair Patterson (nope he wasn't born or educated in CA), from Cal Tech who was the leading researcher on using Pb for dating techniques, stumbled upon TEL issues as he was putting ages onto various fossils and artifacts. Even in the 1940s TEL issues and its health harms were getting notice. Ten years after the fact I knew and worked with people from the University of Cincinnati who were Patterson's TEL industry sponsored opponents during hearings in Washington.

Oh BTW, where does the power come from to fuel the all electric cars? Phasing out gasoline - news to me and the rest of the world. The real moneymaker and fuel saver will be a hybrid diesel Rabbit or Passat and their clones, now there is an idea worth pursuing, as it already is.

sunchaser said:

....

Of course CA won't allow any new power plants to be built to supply ready kilowatts for these all electric vehicles so the CA environment is really saved now! And the State wonders why it is in hock.

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Where do you get your information?

Last time I checked Status of All Projects CA brought 57 new power plants online since 6/27/01 for a total of 19.885 GW of capacity. They brought 3 new plants online 5/1/2013 with 2.11 GW of capacity, 5 plants came online in 2012 with 902 MW of capacity. There are currently 9 power plants under construction which will provide 3.9 GW of capacity and 3 of these are scheduled to go online later in 2013. There are also 12 power plants that have been approved and are in pre-construction which will add 4.289 GW. Plus 8 new power plants projects in the review process which if approved and built would provide 4.135 GW of capacity.

portager said:

Last time I checked Status of All Projects CA brought 57 new power plants online since 6/27/01 for a total of 19.885 GW of capacity. .

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You could not be more correct, I was pulling Bob's chain. Sorry for the confusion.

sunchaser said:

You could not be more correct, I was pulling Bob's chain. Sorry for the confusion.

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Why does my chain need to be pulled? lol

I'm still drinking the KoolAid searching out all the info I can find on the GreenLine 33. One thing for sure, the future will see a large used market at the rate they are selling new, and these owners then upgrading to the larger 40' or 46'. I like the 40' and it is within my budget, but it isn't even close to the efficiency of the 33' single engine.

deckofficer said:

One thing for sure, the future will see a large used market at the rate they are selling new, and these owners then upgrading to the larger 40' or 46'.

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Three Questions:

• Bob, what do you guess the larger vessels overall performance to be North of the 38th //, if venturing North would make a difference
• Normal cruising range at 6 to 7 knots
• What do you see about the vessel that could be improved

A few years ago I was cruising in Finland and the vessel's owner was remarking on Slovenia's/Baltic countries build capabilities. Then they were importing FRP hulls, primarily sail, for finishing into Scandinavian countries to improve upon fit and finish - that was 7 years ago so it appears things have changed

sunchaser said:

Three Questions:

• Bob, what do you guess the larger vessels overall performance to be North of the 38th //, if venturing North would make a difference
• Normal cruising range at 6 to 7 knots
• What do you see about the vessel that could be improved

A few years ago I was cruising in Finland and the vessel's owner was remarking on Slovenia's/Baltic countries build capabilities. Then they were importing FRP hulls, primarily sail, for finishing into Scandinavian countries to improve upon fit and finish - that was 7 years ago so it appears things have changed

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Maybe it hasn't changed as some boating journalists commented that the joinery wasn't as good as they thought it could be. For the price I'd accept that shortcoming. The smallest (33') has a B certification so deemed OK in Beaufort 8, 40 kt winds and 25' seas. The videos I've watched shows it performing in a sea state close to 8, so I'd feel comfortable off shore California to the PNW and Desolation Sound, BC.

As far as improvements, when they first splashed in 2009, lithium cells were still very expensive so they employed only 11.5 Kw bank which is good for 20 nm @ 4 kt. Of course I could just add to it, but would want a midship position below the water line. An added 36.4 Kw of LiFePO4 cells would add 750 lbs of weight and cost $9K. Together, the 4 kt range would increase to over 80 nm, not bad IMHO.

sunchaser said:

You could not be more correct, I was pulling Bob's chain. Sorry for the confusion.

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No problem, just trying to set the record straight. Nothing wrong with pulling Bob's chain.

deckofficer said:

Why does my chain need to be pulled? lol

I'm still drinking the KoolAid searching out all the info I can find on the GreenLine 33. One thing for sure, the future will see a large used market at the rate they are selling new, and these owners then upgrading to the larger 40' or 46'. I like the 40' and it is within my budget, but it isn't even close to the efficiency of the 33' single engine.

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I like the layout of the 40' much better than the 33'. Mainly because I like 2 cabins and a dry bath. One thing I was wondering is where would you put the dinghy? The roof is covered with solar panels so I think you'd need a transom davit. I searched their site and couldn't find anything about a davit. I wish they offered a non-hybrid version so you could see what you're paying for the electric motor, lithium batteries and solar panels. I think your paying a lot for 20 NM electric range. The diesel is doing all the heavy lifting. I'm also nervous about the unconventional hull.

I like the layout of the 40' better but not at the cost of efficiency. Davits would have to arch high and have a long aft overhang to work with the lowering stern. I would go with a full inflatable instead of a RIB dinghy. A perfect candidate for the dinghy would be the Takacat Lite. LITE SERIES - Takacat.com

deckofficer said:

Maybe it hasn't changed as some boating journalists commented that the joinery wasn't as good as they thought it could be. For the price I'd accept that shortcoming. \

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During three years in Berlin, I cruised Germany (a great secret) and attended the Dusseldorf show when the Greenline 33 was introduced. The joinery, while modern and a bit processed, was just fine. True, it didn't have the richness of a traditional yacht, but considering all the new ideas incorporated into the design, I don't think it was their intended mission to deliver anything but what they did. We got to know the owner of a large boat rental company who was a life-time boater, and claimed to be demo-ing the 33 as a high-end rental. When I asked later about his evaluation, he had a lot of praise for the boat, noting that it was far too capable for even a high-end rental cruiser. Of course, it's only opinion.

Nice report healhustler. Greenline touts the efficiency of their hull, and as mono's go they are quite efficient. The Buzzard's Bay 34 and Aspen C90 has better hull efficiency but would have to retrofitted for the solar and electric drive that the Greenline already has set up.

Since the key to solar boating is an efficient hull. Once designed, the hull (with suitable accommodations) can also be marketed as ultra efficient with a smallish, modern diesel, less the electric drive and with or without the solar supported hotel loads.

The key is to develop a marketable platform with technology and drive train options and suitable living and cruising ability.

The technology exists. It's just a matter of choosing and assembling the parts.

What Beaufort scale would you feel "safe enough" if caught in Sunshine? Not comfort, but survivable in an upright position?

deckofficer said:

What Beaufort scale would you feel "safe enough" if caught in Sunshine? Not comfort, but survivable in an upright position?

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Like any power cat, Sunshine has extremely high stability. It's not the wind that would capsize her but a very big and steep wave!

That is why I asked Beaufort scale as it includes sea state and winds. 20' but not steep or breaking probably no problem so maybe Force 8? With weather routing one can stay away from the really nasty systems but I was just curious how the panels and front berth windows would handle a breaking wave.

If I were venturing offshore on Sunshine I would fit her with 3/4" polycarbonate shutters in front if the master SR windows. Along with an EPIRB and a life raft. May as well throw in a sat phone, too. Obviously a water maker (I'm installing one in the fall). Positive flotation is a possibility, too. And wind turbine. Lots of canned stew.

What'd I forget? Can opener?

Well you could do the Great Loop with ease and probably burn less than 50 gallons of diesel if you choose.

deckofficer said:

That is why I asked Beaufort scale as it includes sea state and winds. 20' but not steep or breaking probably no problem so maybe Force 8? With weather routing one can stay away from the really nasty systems but I was just curious how the panels and front berth windows would handle a breaking wave.

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It is a very common misconception that the Beaufort scale includes wind speed and wave height. This was caused by the fact that during the steam ship days the Beaufort scale numbers were equated to sea conditions to allow mariners without sails to judge wind speed. The problem with the Beaufort scale is that the relationship between wind speed and wave height is dependent of the fetch, or distance that the wind has to transfer energy to the water. If a strong wind is blowing offshore and you are close to the coast the waves will be very small. However, if a light breeze is coming from far out to sea the waves will be much larger.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale "The Beaufort scale (pron.: /ˈboʊfərt/) is an empirical measure that relates wind speed to observed conditions at sea or on land. Its full name is the Beaufort wind force scale, although it is a measure of wind speed and not of "force" in the scientific sense of the word."

I don't speak "Beaufort." In fact, when Small Craft Warnings are up, I stay in port!

I'm actually thinking of sending Sunshine on the Great Loop - find a few skippers to do different legs - and see how she does?

Over my lifetime, I have done all of the loop except from the junction of the Illinois and Mississippi and Mobile, Alabama. It'd be fun to catch a ride down the Mississippi, Tom Sawyer style, on Sunshine.

rjtrane said:

I don't speak "Beaufort." In fact, when Small Craft Warnings are up, I stay in port!

I'm actually thinking of sending Sunshine on the Great Loop - find a few skippers to do different legs - and see how she does?

Over my lifetime, I have done all of the loop except from the junction of the Illinois and Mississippi and Mobile, Alabama. It'd be fun to catch a ride down the Mississippi, Tom Sawyer style, on Sunshine.

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You could set a record for the least fuel consumed on the great loop! Good PR opportunity!

I always wanted to build a transportable boat and do the loop is sections or just cherry pick sections. I have relatives in Omaha NE and Milwaukee WI, so I'd launch in Omaha and cruise to Milwaukee. I'd make good speed going down the Missouri but I wouldn't want to go up!

rjtrane said:

I don't speak "Beaufort." In fact, when Small Craft Warnings are up, I stay in port!

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What aspect of your craft causes you to stay in port when waves and winds are up - electric connections and salt water, cat instability, comfort, low power--? I know you've got the blue water experience and I'm not trying to be snarky, just curious.

sunchaser said:

What aspect of your craft causes you to stay in port when waves and winds are up - electric connections and salt water, cat instability, comfort, low power--? I know you've got the blue water experience and I'm not trying to be snarky, just curious.

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Good question: it's not an aspect of boat - it's an aspect of my temperament- I just don't care for rough weather. Period. And, although there is something special about being out on an empty ocean, poking along, it's not something I lust for anymore.

Some of my favorite boating has been in my shoal-draft sailboats, the Hens, skimming across a 2' deep section of Florida Bay, trailing my fingers in the water, never out of sight of land.

BTW, power cats are not unstable - there is nothing trying to tip them over (such as a sailing cat). Yes, some do capsize in very rough seas - those kinds of seas I now like to avoid. If I were in rough water for any length of time, I'd much rather be on my deep-V IP535 with her gyro stabilizer! Cats can be horrid in rough water due to TOO MUCH stability.

When Jim Krogen designed the KKY 42 he had several goals in mind - one was to make an extremely efficient cruising boat and one that was sea-kindly. The solution to both is the curvy hull form below the water - since the boat is inherently unstable, he added the ballast keel. The idea is that a boat that rolls in a seaway is more comfortable than one that snaps (such as a catamaran). HIs position is that this motion is easier on the body for days at a time during an ocean passage. The design succeeded with many built and many successful world voyages made - the main downside to this approach is the lack of stability at anchor - and with the pendulum effect of the keel, the boats tend to move more and for a longer period than a more stable modified V monohull or a cat when waves (usually from thoughtless boaters) invade the harbor.

The lightning topic has been split out of this thread.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/lightning-strikes-boats-10182.html

Here is its new home.

Anyone familiar with this solar boat presently doing the Loop?



Using a pair of Torqeedos.


I think he is aiming to make the trip a cable show. More awareness can't hurt the cause.

No specs on the boat or electric propulsion, i.e., batteries, solar production. From the pictures it appears to be shy of 3000 watts of solar. The amas both are always in the water creating drag, I think the amas should only have one or none in the water.

It looks like they are knocking off 30 mile daily runs, which is pretty good if the solar production is shared with total hotel loads and an electric galley.

http://solarboatchronicles.com/

I love the concept, but she looks like a tough boat to lock through. Sounds like a practical, affordable solution to the engineering challenge. I hope she's successful.

I love this quote as I think it captures the spirit of adventure and love of the water many of us share.

"Jim began his boating life at the age of 14 when—inspired by Tom Sawyer’s adventures—he built a wooden boat and drifted down the Arkansas River from his Wichita, Kansas home to the lower reaches of Arkansas. He was ultimately apprehended by a Arkansas sheriff who deemed him a runaway and returned him home."

Al,

Jim does look a bit crusty....


Like me....


I guess not all of us solar boating people are as polished as Reuben.

We made an attempt this morning to get across the Sapello Sound, but the Northeast wind was just to strong and we could not maintain control of the boat, again.

"COULD NOT MAINTAIN CONTROL OF THE BOAT AGAIN!!!"

'Fraid it will be a long time before this stunt boat goes mainstream.

FF said:

'Fraid it will be a long time before this stunt boat goes mainstream.

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Darn good thing Christopher Columbus, Ponce De Leon or Magellan never had to answer to Internet critics.

"Darn good thing Christopher Columbus, Ponce De Leon or Magellan never had to answer to Internet critics. "

I believe all these intrepid explorers enjoyed boats that could be controlled .

A stunt boat is a stunt boat and useful to get publicity , a modern cruiser only has the fact that it floats in common with stunters.

deckofficer said:

Al,

Jim does look a bit crusty....


Like me....


I guess not all of us solar boating people are as polished as Reuben.

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You both need to get yourselves a solar razor!

Here's my scruffy photo.