When Are the Seas Just Too Rough?

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StuartT

Veteran Member
Joined
May 4, 2013
Messages
42
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Following Seas
Vessel Make
2001 Bayliner 5788
We are bringing a 57 Bayliner down from Seattle to Stockton next month. I am doing a crash coarse on understanding the various sea condition we will face on a southerly coarse with predominately westerly or northwesterly winds and swells. Very common this time of year to see 3' - 5' wind waves and 5' - 8' swells on 9 - 10 seconds.

You guys who have been out there, where does fun end and misery begin, and I am most interested in abeam and following seas, not heading northerly into them.
 
OK

We brought our 4788 Bayliner north from Washington to Alaska this time last year.

During our Gulf of Alaska crossing we had some iffy weather. I hired a weather router to help us with our decisionmaking.

The first question he asked is similar to your title, "what is too rough"

Ocean boating consists of two different types of waves. Long period waves, and short period waves. These two different kinds of waves combine to make a sea state.

Long period waves are the long term result of wind action. They are as the name implies long in period, with a good example being 11 seconds.

Short period waves are short in period, with a good example being 6-7 seconds. Short period waves are the short term result of wind action. When the wind dies the short period waves abate pretty quickly, leaving the long period waves.

I picked a number based on my experience as a go/no go criteria. I chose for head, or following 10' long and 6' short period waves. which could and would be combined to make the sea state.

For beam seas I decided on 1/2 that number.

Based on our actual experience in our boat that was a good decision, and its a number that I would use again for a safe trip. Thats not a comfortable trip, but it is, and was safe.

We could have handled larger waves, and have, but I would not volunteer to do so. There is a big difference between knowingly going out to sea in a certian sea state and getting caught unintentionally.
 
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What a great post! I'll look forward to more replies!
 
Exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for Kevin. One thing I note however is the NOAA reports depict wind wave height, but only swell as height and seconds. For example:

TONIGHT...SE WIND 10 TO 15 KT. WIND WAVES 1 OR 2 FT. W SWELL 6 FT AT 9 SECONDS. A CHANCE OF SHOWERS.

THU...NE WIND 5 TO 15 KT...BECOMING N IN THE AFTERNOON. WIND WAVES 1 TO 2 FT. W SWELL 5 FT AT 9 SECONDS. A CHANCE OF SHOWERS.

THU NIGHT...NW WIND 5 TO 15 KT. WIND WAVES 1 TO 2 FT. W SWELL 5 FT AT 10 SECONDS. SLIGHT CHANCE OF SHOWERS.

FRI...W WIND 5 TO 15 KT. WIND WAVES 1 TO 2 FT. W SWELL 4 FT AT 10 SECONDS.

Were are you getting the wind wave period numbers?
 
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What a great post! I'll look forward to more replies!

+1

Ksanders gave a great response. This is the kind of stuff that can turn a life partner off boating all together. While those seas are manageable, with a new team out there with something major going wrong can be a disaster. This is for experienced crew. The fatigue factor can build up quickly.
 
Great information on a great thread topic, ksanders.

A friend advised me to avoid conditions when the wave height and period approach each other...or, the period exceeds the height. In other words, a 9 ft wave on a 12 second period is manageable, but a nine ft wave on an 8 or 9 second interval could get very challenging.

I'll sit back and see if others with actual experience in the ocean (that wouldn't be me) agree or disagree with that approach.
 
Flywright, on the near coastal East coast you will seldom see 12 second period. 9 is considered pretty good. That big ole Pacific surely has some long swell. Out in the big water far offshore in the Atlantic you can get some of that. Maybe Capt. Jack will chime in. He has more experience that all of us put together. Also, I would like to hear from Larry on Hobo. He could add a lot to this.

Very interesting subject.
 
Stuart, the conditions you showed in your NOAA weather reports shouldn't be too bad. Following Seas will be able to handle that just fine.

I'm not sure it's an excellent comparison, but here's a video I shot on Beachcomber when we were headed to PDX last June. We were trying to make some time to get to the next dam so we were running about 22kts in 3'-5' waves. You can see the spray is coming up as high as we were on the flybridge. You can also see that the boat isn't bouncing around at all. All that weight really helps when the waters get roiled.


I got your email and have sent one back to you and Stray Cat.
 
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Wow!, Thanks guys! :blush:

Stuart, when I mentioned wind waves the period was given as a way to differentiate between them and swells.

I subscribe to a web site thats helpful called bouyweather.com

Weather routing services are not all that expensive.

I used Rick Shema at www.weatherguy.com

He charged $75.00 per update, generally once per day. Its a pretty good investment for any long crossings.

I would imagine for your trip he could give you bar forecasts at different times of day, and a host of unplesantness preventing information.
 
Got it Kevin. Understand your explanation. Thanks for the info on Rick also.

Mike, fun film to watch. From talking with my brother in law, who for the benefit of everyone else reading here made this same trip all the way to Mexico in the same model boat, noted that at a fuel conserving speed of 10 - 11 knots, they contended with following seas that repeatedly buried the bow when the periods were just right. Problem is he cannot remember what that period and swell height was. We know we will have to strike a balance between speed and fuel consumption. Going forward into seas, tabing the bow down and holding 15 - 17 knots is often a smooth ride. Following seas can be a little more tricky.

Disclosure: GFC Mike is one of the crew member joining me on the trip. :thumb:
 
Disclosure: GFC Mike is one of the crew member joining me on the trip. :thumb:

And I'm darned glad to be a part of the crew!
 
Whean I lived in SoCal we made the trip over to Catalina dozens of times. My wife's rule was that if NOAA was forecasting 4-6' seas or more she wouldn't go.

This worked pretty well as we once made the crossing in 4-6 and it was uncomfortable but not unsafe with occaisional spray over the flybridge windshield.

Having said all of that, the points concentrate the wind/waves and can be much worse near them than the general forecast wave height.

David
 
I find this topic to be quite interesting as I know for a fact that many mariners don't estimate the wave heights accurately. I've seen guys arriving at Catalina, saying that they fought 6' seas all the way from San Diego when I had arrived 1 hour earlier (from the same city) with reported 3-4' seas. The same thing happened when I took my 42' Ocean Alex to Ensenada from San Diego. (70 miles) There were four of us on board and though it was a little uncomfortable, it certainly was not dangerous.

So, what's my point? Get a good forecast, put to sea and see if those reported wave heights, etc, make your sphinkter pucker. If they do, follow Clint Eastwood's advice ("A man's gotta know his limitations") and don't go! If they don't, you now have a benchmark for future cruises. As Ksanders pointed out many posts ago, you have to experience (take the boat out) many sea states before you can accurately assess their effect on your boat. (and you!)
 
Unless entering an inlet, over a shoal, or rounding a point coastal seas don't really have to be estimated. The seastate bouys tell the story. Here is a link to the one I use off Ft. Pierce when we go fishing.

NDBC - Station 41114
 
Hi Stuart,

It will be interesting to see how "Following Seas" handles following seas. I think Kevin's response way up at post #2 is spot on. When I used to run a Dive Charter out of Neah Bay, our criteria for heading offshore was always that the wave period should be longer than the wave height.

As an example, we went out one day with a 14' swell, but a 16 second period and the divers had a great time. It was a slow, easy sea state. On the flip side, I screwed up one time and took the crew out (and my wife) in a small boat one day with 8' seas and a 7 second period (very steep waves, close together). My wife was hanging on for dear life and asking me, "are we going to die?".....

Oops! :facepalm:
 
SEAS ARE PROVIDED AS A RANGE OF SIGNIFICANT WAVE HEIGHTS...WHICH IS
THE AVERAGE HEIGHT OF THE HIGHEST 1/3 OF THE WAVES...ALONG WITH THE
OCCASIONAL HEIGHT OF THE AVERAGE HIGHEST 10 PERCENT OF THE WAVES.

Remember this notice on the NOAA website and note the word AVERAGE. That means that many are larger waves. I like to take the height of wind waves and add them up. If the forecast is 2 feet to four feet just add 2+4 to get 6 foot waves.....
Most boats will take rough conditions better than the crew will. A group of experienced crew will do much better than offshore newbies and that should be taken into consideration.
 
Great information on a great thread topic, ksanders.

A friend advised me to avoid conditions when the wave height and period approach each other...or, the period exceeds the height. In other words, a 9 ft wave on a 12 second period is manageable, but a nine ft wave on an 8 or 9 second interval could get very challenging.

I'll sit back and see if others with actual experience in the ocean (that wouldn't be me) agree or disagree with that approach.

Al's rule if thumb is what we followed when we used to race in the Pacific Ocean in our sailing days. The few times we went anyway when it was questionable, we regretted it. Nothing bad happened because of it but those weren't the best days. One of them, we had one crew throwing up pretty much the entire way and we finally had to do a headsail change and it was pretty terrifying. But as always the boat can handle more than the people and we all lived to tell.
 
We have done the trip south twice. Small craft warnings, we stayed in. We looked at the wave height and period but at the end of the day the CG was a pretty good benchmark with their warnings and that with the NOAA weather forecasts. You will have lots of harbors in/outs as you go done the coast. The best advice we had going done the coast was, Ebb was evil and flood was fine. Lots of bar crossings.

Have a great trip. The CG is your friend.
 
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+1

Ksanders gave a great response. This is the kind of stuff that can turn a life partner off boating all together. While those seas are manageable, with a new team out there with something major going wrong can be a disaster. This is for experienced crew. The fatigue factor can build up quickly.

Don brings up a great point. i just finished two days of coming up the coast from Norfolk to Cape May. The first day the 3-5 ft swell 150° off my bow (so this means 30° off stbd stern). My boat was rockin and rolling into the night.
Today, by 9 am the swell was a little less, but since I was now going due north, it was on my stern. It was great, but as the day wore on, I was feeling sicker and sicker. It's 3 hours since i tied up and am still not recovered. So even though the rolling was 1/10 of what it was the day before, fatigue ended up being a big issue.

Richard
 
"... the skipper must plan his entrance so that it is attempted only when the seas are benign and during a flood tide --the last of the flood being the best. ..." (from page 11 of Charlie's Charts of the U.S. Pacific Coast)
 
A few other other things to consider:
  • As Don says, check the NOAA buoy data, it is voluminous and if you follow it for awhile you will get the rhythm down as winds, wave direction and height vary from buoy to buoy based upon where the lows and highs are. They even give you flag colors for good vs bad travel times
  • 5 day or so calmer windows on this stretch are not uncommon allowing you to make the whole trip in one shot. To insure this is possible to do, have the ebbs and floods for the bar crossings plotted well in advance so you can duck in for fuel and then take off again.
  • Talk to your weather router well in advance and pick his brain for suggestions on how weather changes 2000 miles away can affect wave direction and height, these primary swells can carry a long way and with fresher off shore breezes can develop into a nasty cross chop.
  • Your router can advise you as to how far offshore to travel to minimize the effects of current and cross swell secondary waves.
A calm day on the coast can well be 20 to 25 knots afternoon offshore breezes vs the same velocity sustained for a few days being miserable , or as mentioned earlier the effect of fetch at work.

I'd guess your larger boat would be able to take the same conditions Kevin mentioned plus some, so as said his advice is good - remembering you will have largely following seas so throttle control and speed can be your friend. If not done already, prepare a paper chart showing speed vs fuel burn vs distance assuming a known comfortable reserve. Offshore is not a good place to push the reserve envelope. Do your tanks have sight tubes? Gauges can be misleading at times

Some will say take your time and enjoy the sights, not me. If you have an all clear go for it. You may recall Arctic Traveler had a mill pond run a few months ago coming North, it happens.
 
We made the run north last week and it was indeed a mill pond for the last day and a half. However, it was pretty crappy for the first 12 hours or so after leaving the gate.

We use passageweather.com and it's never let us down. Also, the NDBC and the CG. Combined, you'll get a pretty good idea of what you'll be up against.

As for small craft warnings, we find it to be a pretty good indicator of how good, or bad, the ride will be. If it looks like they'll subside within a day or so, we go. If it looks like they're going to stick around, or maybe get worse, no go.

We can handle it for a day or so, but longer than that, not fun.

Be patient.
 
Wow! I just got to the boat in Seattle after a 12 hour drive from Sacramento. You guys are awesome!!! I am going to be reading this thread a number of times to absorb all the wisdom. I am still to weary to think clearly and ask intelligent questions until I get some sleep, but I do want to ask this. Neal, you mentioned using the CG. Are you calling them on VHF for reports or what? I agree they have to be a great resource.

And I am going to contact a weather router. Just the education alone in comparing what they tell you vs. what you would have done on your own would be invaluable.

Thanks again for this incredible response from guys that have been there, done that. I have boated for over 40 years in 12 boats from 24 to now 57, have done the inside passage to Alaska which had two ocean stretches each way, and I am still learning.
 
We always call the CG whenever entering Eureka as we never seem to get there under perfect conditions, no matter how hard we try.
 
Stuart, welcome to the PNW. I hope your trip up was uneventful. I bet it's going to feel nice to lay down on the master berth on Following Seas and let yourself drift off to sleep.

29 days....not that anyone's counting.
 
The fatigue factor is real, and it's cumulative.

The simple task of changing a fuel filter changes dramatically in a rolling sea. When things are so rough the autopilot is overwhelmed, who steers while to go below to take care of a problem that will take three times as long to do.

A couple of examples in our cruising. After cruising about 900 miles in 5 days, I was totally consumed in the operation of the boat. I failed to watch what was happening to Lou. I looked at her at the end of the fifth day, and could tell she was sinking fast. She was slightly dehydrated, and absolutely worn out. I told her to go to bed, and that we would take the next day off for rest. That was my fault for not being more attuned to what was happening to my crew.

Another trip was during the heat of summer. We had crossed from Stuart to Fort Myers in one day, and made it to Boca Grande before evening. When we got to Ft. Myers I looked at Lou. Her face was flush, she was obviously in discomfort. I looked at the temperature----95 degrees. I turned on the generator and A/C. In a few minutes voila 72 degrees. Things started to improve immensely.

The point is everyone does not share our interest or enthusiasm. What we may endure or even relish, can be another persons demise. We must be conscience at all times of our crew and their conditions. We must be careful to stay out of situations that will affect that negatively A cruise offshore can be an almost nonevent, but let things change for the worse or mechanical problems arise it will be a different story. Maybe a disaster.
 
I made the run from Seattle to Los Angeles last September on an Ocean Alexander 44 .The conditions for the most part were pretty benign. In fact, when we left Port Angeles, the sea was dead calm almost all the way to Newport, OR. We had the NOAA channel on 24/7 and listened diligently to the offshore reports. We found that quite often the most recent reports from a sea buoy that we were passing close to did not reflect the actual conditions we were experiencing. Most often, the wave height and wind strength were significantly less than what was being reported.

We had quartering seas for most of the trip. It was pretty cool to see our speed jump from 8kts to 10-11kts as a wave would pass under us. It was kind of a rush to feel the boat surfing, although we were never in danger of broaching. Occasionally when going into a port, we would have a beam sea which would give us a pretty intense snap roll. Fortunately, everything below was well secured. However, we did have one of the fold-up bikes fly across the sundeck on one particularly wild roll.

We stayed roughly twenty miles offshore which pretty much kept us clear of the many crab/lobster pots inshore, although now and then we would see one floating out where we were.

We did give the Columbia River bar a much wider berth though. Even at 2am when we passed through there was a lot of activity in the area. There was a CG pan call out for a skipper of a fishing boat that had been hit in the head with a block and was bleeding from the ears and seizing. Another boat had picked up the call and relayed it to the CG but didn’t get a location so all boats were on the lookout including us. It was kinda eerie.

When we were running down the coast we would make an assessment of the current (real time) conditions and the forecast for the next 24/36 hours. If conditions were favorable, we would decide whether or not to stay at sea and keep going, which would mean overnight runs, which we were prepared for. We did one stretch of three days and two nights between ports. By doing so we were able to eat up sizable chunks of mileage (300+ miles). We did get held up in Coos Bay harbor for two days while the wind blew 35-40 kts. Even the commercial fishermen weren’t going out. In fact, I think the steepest seas we encountered on the whole trip (except off Santa Cruz Island) was coming out Coos Bay.

The only real potentially hazardous condition we encountered was fog. The run from the middle of the Oregon coast all the way down to San Francisco was done mostly in fog. You really want to have a good radar unit and know how to use it. Most of the time we had less than an eight of a mile visibility. If you are planning on doing any overnight runs, you gotta have radar anyway. We did have a sailboat slip inside our half mile ring undetected (some of them make poor targets), and a whale sleeping on the surface that wouldn’t get out of our way, so even with radar you still have to maintain a good watch.

If you do get caught out in nasty conditions you should know where the nearest safe harbor is. The CG will shut down some of the smaller (and occasionally larger) harbors if the bar crossings get too dangerous (Brookings harbor was closed when we passed it) . Your navigator should have all the harbors that you intend on using at the end of your daily run plotted, plus possible alternatives. There aren’t a ton of all-weather harbors along the coast, so again, you should know in advance were they are. And as other folks have mentioned, you will want to keep an eye on the tides for theses harbors, entering against an opposing current could be challenging at best. We would often slow our speed down so that we would be arriving at a harbor as close to slack as possible. You’ll also want to be up to snuff on identifying channel markers as some of the inner harbor markers can get pretty confusing.

Otto did most of our driving as it’s hard to hand steer for long stretches. It’s important that your system can handle different sea states. Ours tended to wander if we took a big roll and would take a while to come back on course. Overall though, the navigation is pretty straightforward, just follow the coastline. You gotta be extra careful around Cape Blanco though.

If you are going to Stockton, you probably already know that you will want to enter San Francisco Bay during daylight hours. I’ve come into the bay at night from the Farallones, and it can be pretty tricky picking up the nav lights with all the city background lighting. You could either anchor out at Drakes Bay or go into Bodega Bay harbor (just watch out for the Birds), and make the run up to San Pablo and the Delta the next day or two.

Overall we had a great time doing the trip. However, if we went strictly by the forecasts, on several occasions we wouldn’t have ventured out of the harbor. It would be a great asset to have someone along with you that has already made the trip.

As previously mentioned, you’re going to have to take the boat out to find out what it and the crew can handle comfortably. However, trying to keep to a trip schedule can lead to poor judgment, so just remember that the safety of the crew comes first and at the first signs of danger, hightail it into a port, even if it means being delayed for several days.

Good luck and Fair Winds. KJ

PS take lots of pictures
PPS if you do a night run, check your wake for the light show (bioluminescence).
 
My God, you are talking about a 57 foot boat going downhill and making all kinds of excuses for not going out in seas??? Buy a motorhome. :banghead:

Seriously, that boat will be fine in all seas you will have unless you go during or right after a front or storm. The NOAA stuff is crap. I've been out when the radio said 6' seas and it was less than a 3' swell. I've also been out when they said it was a red flag warning and nothing but calm seas. I've been out when they said it was 20' seas and that time it was larger.

I now plan based on barometric pressure. Watch the barometer and get experienced with the seas based on pressure. Watch the skies and clouds. Become experienced with nature and not a NOAA radio report.

Soap box removed. :dance:
 
My god, it just keeps getting better. For me and my crew, this is going to be a very valuable thread with exceptional information we just can't get out of Coast Pilot 7. There is nothing like real world experience exhibited right here.

Tell us about running at night. I can see how you might to start imagining seeing things, or miss seeing that whale. We do have a 48 mile open array radar with a color display and it is pretty good about picking out the small stuff. One comment I have heard is that in the open Pacific (or any ocean), the loneliest you will ever feel will be a 3am on a moonless night in a pitching sea. Valid?
 
One comment I have heard is that in the open Pacific (or any ocean), the loneliest you will ever feel will be a 3am on a moonless night in a pitching sea. Valid?
Yes! And I was on watch on the USS Enterprise!!!;)
 

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