Trawler vs Motor Yacht Running Gear

Moonstruck,

My bad! I mistook your gorgeous Sabre for an East Bay! I apologize profusely!

Reuben, your right. It's a Sabre, but Sabre is going more and more to the pod drives. I have ridden and driven pod boats. To me there is no problem maneuvering my boat or any boat I've had in close quarters. That is when I think pods are most valuable. I have not seen in numbers the claimed extra efficiency. The economy of my boat at speed works out quiet favorably with pods. Of course there are charts, and everyone should be careful. However, they don't call them accidents for nothing. I've got to talk to Eric about insurers charging us extra because others have pods. We don't want to pay for that doe we Eric?

<<Of course, you've picked one of the most expensive pod boats to support your position, a Grand Banks.>>

The picked the most expensive pod boat to support his position...and you picked the most expensive SE boat to support yours. That was my only point. Tug style boats are EXPENSIVE....regardless of the reason.

And thanks for listing all of those points. All very relevant and something I did not think about. And I do realize they are more efficient but I have to be honest in saying I have a hard time believing they are 25-30% more so? The automatic transmission pretty much displaced the manual transmissions. I don't think pods will do that to the conventional setups of today??

PS...I used to custom order my cars with manual transmissions and rollup windows.Whenever it came time to sell them, it was always to somebody well over 60 and they were tickled pink to find such a creature in this day and age.

Baker said:

Carver 356 with twin 370hp Cummins 6BTAs...the deal is not sealed yet but just might get there by the end of the week.

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U B Cool!!

Yow, 370 hp twins... Is that a freaking Speed Boat??!!!!

rjtrane said:

BTW, we seem to have very similar boating experience starting in the 50s from Nova Scotia to the Bahamas. I remember a trip in the fog from Halifax to Maine navigating with a compass, a good watch and a Walker taff-rail log. We lost sight of land within an hour of leaving Halifax and made our landfall several days later at Mantinicus right on the money. I think all of us boaters who make it to our age has one or more war stories to tell.

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rj - Yes, we do seem to have similar experiences. Compass, time piece, knowing boat's speed, and a chart have for decades been my best friends... still are for serious cruising. I recall Loran becoming available to general boating community... used it back in the day to check on our chart calcs. Now you can look at a screen and see where you are, speed traveling, and how long you have to go, as well as how many and what type of fish is underneath ya. Get the special model with personal aps and it will even tell you if the Admiral’s feeling frisky... ya sure... wink of the eye is best!

Regarding Pods. I like their concept and think they will eventually fill a large portion of the market. I do however have certain reservations and before owning a pod boat the pods will need some years of proof-in-the-putting. Time marches on! Even for Don “Moonstruck” and me!

Baker said:

<<Of course, you've picked one of the most expensive pod boats to support your position, a Grand Banks.>>

The picked the most expensive pod boat to support his position...and you picked the most expensive SE boat to support yours. That was my only point. Tug style boats are EXPENSIVE....regardless of the reason.

And thanks for listing all of those points. All very relevant and something I did not think about. And I do realize they are more efficient but I have to be honest in saying I have a hard time believing they are 25-30% more so? The automatic transmission pretty much displaced the manual transmissions. I don't think pods will do that to the conventional setups of today??

PS...I used to custom order my cars with manual transmissions and rollup windows.Whenever it came time to sell them, it was always to somebody well over 60 and they were tickled pink to find such a creature in this day and age.

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You used to order cars with standard transmissions? What made you stop?

Actually I could have picked ANY high-end forty footer. None that I know of sell for less than half a million or so? Not the Beneteau Swift. Nor the Marlows? How about the Fleming 34' Corvette? One of the participants In this thread must have the time to compile a list of prices for new 40 something new boats?

I'll see if I can track down some of the side by side sea trials of same boats with different power trains? I do know that using the same HP as the Beneteau Swift, the IP435 cruises at 28 knots while the Beneteau Swift cruises at 21 knots. Same GPH. Same LOA and beam. Very similar displacements and LWL. Same brand and model motors. BTW, the IPS is a bit better efficiency-wise than the Zeus.

We have swapped out a pod drive motor in 8 hours. Hard to do with motors under the saloon sole.

I know all the old timers here pride themselves on their boat handling skills developed over a lifetime of yachting. I'm proud of mine, too. When I lived aboard a 45 foot ketch at Dinner Key I used to sail into my slip never starting the diesel. For most of her life, my 25' Bolger Black Skimmer never even had a motor on board - I'd sail off and back into my mooring at Coconut Grove Sailing Club.

But, in less than ideal conditions, I certainly prefer docking a pod boat than a single or normal twin. And you really can't beat the station keeping ability.

I never expect to convince any if you. Pluto asked earlier for ALL of our opinions based on our experiences. Once he mentioned the Great Loop I chose to share mine since that trip has more maneuvering, docking and locking than many boaters experience in a lifetime. Had Pluto a tenth of our experience, he wouldn't have asked the question because he would have already formed his own opinions.

I'm glad to have the chance to air mine.

rjtrane said:

You used to order cars with standard transmissions? What made you stop?



I'm glad to have the chance to air mine.

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Kinda like getting a dirt house....I moved off of the boat and bought a dirt house....just because. Same thing goes with the auto transmission. I got one just because! And the trim level of Toyota truck I wanted didn't offer the manual... I do still prefer the manual.

And I am glad you have aired your opinion as well. I have been closed minded to pods strictly because of their expense and complexity. And also, that is a very expensive chunk of metal hanging out there in the "breeze". Anyway, you have opened my mind a bit and have given me something to think about!

It is my feeling that by now virtually all production yachts in sizes and quality that would benefit by the installation of pods would have done so by now. Unfortunately for boat building business, the current economic downturn has kept many builders from adopting pods and making the necessary investment in engineering and tooling to do so.

Moonstruck says above that they're a win/win for builders and dealers. I add, that they're a win for the end users, also - especially those newbies buying their first big boat.

We stayed away from installing pods until more than a year from their introduction had gone by and over 1,000 units were in service around the world. In fact, it was totally customer-driven, our buyers started insisting on IPS pods. None or our owners that I know of has regretted owning a pod-propelled cruising yacht.

rjtrane said:

It is my feeling that by now virtually all production yachts in sizes and quality that would benefit by the installation of pods would have done so by now. Unfortunately for boat building business, the current economic downturn has kept many builders from adopting pods and making the necessary investment in engineering and tooling to do so.

Moonstruck says above that they're a win/win for builders and dealers. I add, that they're a win for the end users, also - especially those newbies buying their first big boat.

We stayed away from installing pods until more than a year from their introduction had gone by and over 1,000 units were in service around the world. In fact, it was totally customer-driven, our buyers started insisting on IPS pods. None or our owners that I know of has regretted owning a pod-propelled cruising yacht.

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Approx - How many Pods in service at this time and what is the industry projection for mfg of Pods this year?

Also - what type of complication exists for inclusion of Pods during repower of a "classic" cruiser... i.e. a used boat?

And - how many Pods do you know of that have either failed of their own volition and/or been ruined or lost due to collision with dead heads or due to groundings.

In addition - do Pods increase the draft of a boat in comparison to straight drive or out drive... if so by how much?

Thanks, Art

Fly by wire has many advantages so I would love to have pod drives. When the day comes I can afford them, I'll get them. Perhaps that sums up the feeling of many on TF.

I know a few people who have driven the GB41(43) and they all tell me it's fantastic. Particularly the ability of the boat to hold station even with adverse currents and winds. The boat can be accurately moved directly sideways in the face of wind or current or both. No need to try to manipulate thrusters and main engines and rudders to get into tight spaces or get up to a dock and hold it there while someone gets lines ashore and secured.

Based on these experiences and what I've read about them I think pod drives are the way to go if one can afford them. However I don't think there is a valid return on investment to retrofit them to a boat like ours.

I don't think they are any more vulnerable to debris in the water than the running gear on our boat. With either conventional drive or pod drive, the need for vigilance while underway is the same as far as I'm concerned. In 15 years of running our boat year round in waters noted for the amount of debris in them we have never hit anything and we don't expect to in the next 15 years. If we had a pod boat I would expect the same.

I think it is PSNEELD's tag line. (I'm sure to be corrected if wrong). Maybe it was SkipperDude's. Sure miss him.

something like "If you can't fix it, it shouldn't be on a boat".

I know that electrical controlled fuel delivery on diesels will be all that is available in the future. Being a neanderthal and having had many electrical problems from the diesels in our newer trucks, I am not happy to have to deal with that on my boat. Electrical problems are parts change problems. No fixing. Just changing. Most problems I have dealt with on boats were electrical-----inverter, charger, pumps etc. It's a personal preference, but I just don't like electrical controls.

What material are pods made of? Aluminum like out drives? How do they handle corrosion? (Sorry for the newby questions, I've never seen pods in person)

Art said:

Approx - How many Pods in service at this time and what is the industry projection for mfg of Pods this year?

Also - what type of complication exists for inclusion of Pods during repower of a "classic" cruiser... i.e. a used boat?

And - how many Pods do you know of that have either failed of their own volition and/or been ruined or lost due to collision with dead heads or due to groundings.

In addition - do Pods increase the draft of a boat in comparison to straight drive or out drive... if so by how much?

Thanks, Art

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Good questions.
I have no idea as to how many pods are in service, but the world-wide number of manufacturers using pods is large - i would guess over 100.
I don't know if Volvo even allows for retrofits of pods - their engineers review new-boat plans, make performance predictions and give the builder a lamination schedule for the mounting areas. I do know of one semi-displacement production yacht that did NOT get approval for IPS pods.
I know first hand of corrosion issues due to lack of maintenance - the pods needed to be replaced at owner's expense - he never replaced the zincs. No personal, first hand knowledge of failures. I have grounded once and hit a sunken timber once with no damage to pods - steering was not affected either - just damage to props and center/forward shafts.
Pods use smaller diameter propellers - hull to prop tip clearance is similar to slant shaft installations - so no increase in draft and perhaps a bit of a decrease. Of course, this is assuming one were to replace existing drive train with pods, which most likely can't work since there is all this increased weight aft.

Anything else?

alormaria said:

What material are pods made of? Aluminum like out drives? How do they handle corrosion? (Sorry for the newby questions, I've never seen pods in person)

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Made of castings similar to bronze with a variety of zincs plus active cathode protection.

The ZF 2500 (similar to Zeus) is of an aluminum-type of alloy resulting in less weight and lower cost - a bit less HP, too.

Pod control may take a little getting use to.

...until it's reduced to this as a control.

FlyWright said:

...until it's reduced to this as a control.

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Figment, smigment. You are going to think figment when a unicorn runs up behind and hits you in the . . . . well, you know. When your heat or a/c quits working today, what is it usually due to? A circuit board maybe? Never had a computer crash I suppose. (uh oh, shouldn't use that word to a pilot. sorry)

I just had a discussion with one of our customers who was high in management making electronic components to control the modern automobile engines. He was lamenting a new washing machine not working. He called the manufacturers hotline. What was it? You probably guessed it. CIRCUIT BOARD.

Until boat electronics go through the same rigorous testing that aeronautics electronics go through, I'm sorry, but not much faith here.

It's not the joy stick that scares me. It the electronics it activates. Mark's picture gives a good idea of the complexity of what's behind the joy stick.

Don, Don, Don... To keep sanity...We all should make love with our wife.

That's become the only "board" that won't fail... lest of course you or she short circuits!

And, from picts I've seen of you two... that's just not a gonna happen!

Happy Boating Daze!!

Art said:

Don, Don, Don... To keep sanity...We all should make love with our wife.

That's become the only "board" that won't fail... lest of course you or she short circuits!

And, from picts I've seen of you two... that's just not a gonna happen!

Happy Boating Daze!!

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Art, it seems like you have figured out women. Do you mind sharing that knowledge?

rjtrane said:

I don't know if Volvo even allows for retrofits of pods - their engineers review new-boat plans, make performance predictions and give the builder a lamination schedule for the mounting areas. I do know of one semi-displacement production yacht that did NOT get approval for IPS pods.

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This is a money's no object refit and is not closely related to the discussion, but it is quite something.

A refit of a 1954 wood Huckins with pods. Four short videos here with an intro article:

Videos: "Huckins Motoryacht With a Pod Drive"


Longer PDF here from Professional Boatbuilder with photos of the process:

http://www.yachtingsolutions.com/ne...ofessional_boatbuilder_pod-driven_classic.pdf

Moonstruck said:

Art, it seems like you have figured out women. Do you mind sharing that knowledge?

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Do I read the happy/pleased/satisified energy-depictions in picts with you and wife incorrectly? I doubt it!

Three basics, when equally provided by both, enable relationships to work...

1. Truth
2. Sharing
3. Giving

Oh yeah... Did I Mention TRUTH!

Art, I was just fooling with you. Lou and I are very happy people. We both feel very blessed about a lot of things not the least of which is having each other. I will send you a PM.