Trawler vs Motor Yacht Running Gear
- Thread starter Pluto
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
markpierce
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But I'm not counting and have no set "expiration" goal.
And with Marin posting an average of 4.88 messages per day compared to my 4.44, I won't catch up.
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So did I. Best laid plans.....
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SCOTTEDAVIS
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Do you guys ever "boat".....
Just kidding (sort of)
What am I up to now, post count?
<<<<
Just kidding (sort of)
What am I up to now, post count?
<<<<
Funny you should ask..... Just got back in the slip a little while ago from a day of cruising around and outside Bellingham Bay. Wanted to get another run in before the rain comes back tomorrow.
Daddyo
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That's the way Marin screw around with their preconceptions. No need to stop now, we need you. Yacking and yachting at the same time. Keep it up man until you drop the anchor the final time. I plan to.
Wxx3
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hi all,
Sorry for my snarky reply to the twin versus single thing. It must have been another weird crossing for me.
Seeing Marin's comments, one thing I really like about the krogen is that it runs so well in a following sea. It's like the waves cease to exist. But it sure needs stabilization if they are broadside.
RIchard
Sorry for my snarky reply to the twin versus single thing. It must have been another weird crossing for me.
Seeing Marin's comments, one thing I really like about the krogen is that it runs so well in a following sea. It's like the waves cease to exist. But it sure needs stabilization if they are broadside.
RIchard
dhmeissner
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Are you using the term "boating" as a noun or a verb?
Sent from my iPad using Trawler
I thought of that but only later in the year when we start taking fishing trips and cruises north into BC. Sometimes I get lucky with the camera and get good shots of interesting boats, wildlife, or scenics, and it might be nice to post them on the West Coast part of the forum.
The proper number of engines (two or three), proper type of anchor (rollbar), and the proper orientation of pilothouse windows, which the world knows is vertical or slanted back, are discussions I don't need any part of any more.
rjtrane
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I think Pluto said he was thinking of Great Loop and Bahamas. Extended time aboard but no mention of voyaging across oceans.
I am an advocate of twin steerable pods, either Zeus or IPS, matched to a suitable hull for extended cruising. The Great Loop includes significant docking and locking situations. Nothing is easier to maneuver (taking the stress out of difficult situations) than pods - a your close-in maneuvering is done with an intuitive joystick. Positive & under control.
Dual prop pods are the most efficient way to deliver HP from an internal combustion motor to the water. Well-designed pod-driven yachts can match single screw economy at displacement speeds while still being efficient at planing speeds. You can have your cake and eat it, too.
Most fast boats handle poorly at slow speeds. Since a pod boat steers with 4 propellers, steering is positive at any speed, even with a single motor steering with a pair of counter rotating props.
You can steer in reverse when backing into a slip.
You can for sideways against a 20 knot wind into a small space alongside.
And, when you want to go fast, you can - a well-designed. 40 footer can cruise at speed (21-28 knots) at 1nm/gallon. And there are plenty of boring spots on the Great Loop or in the Bahamas whet it can be nice to have some speed. Rather than spending 8 hours in six footers at 7-1/2 knots you can get through them in 4 hours at 15.
There are many boaters who like having speed available - look at the success of the tug yachts. With the development of the modern diesel, one can efficiently cruise at 8 knots in a boat that can go 30 knots. And with pods, steering is positive at all speeds as is tracking.
I would much rather shoot a treacherous inlet with a lot if reserve power that can get to the water via steerable pods than the typical full displacement single screw trawler.
BTW, no bow nor stern thruster - you have all the thrust you need in those big diesels aft.
And, when you need to hold position waiting on a bridge or lock, you just push a button and a pod boat holds heading and position - close enough that when short handed, on a windy day with no dock boys to help, you can hold position in your slip as you cast off all your lines. Not too shabby.
Pods are a bit less popular in the Pacific Northwest due to the debris in the water. Pluto has not mentioned an interest in the PNW - only the Great Loop and Bahamas. For that type of cruising I would prefer a pod boat, hands down!
I am an advocate of twin steerable pods, either Zeus or IPS, matched to a suitable hull for extended cruising. The Great Loop includes significant docking and locking situations. Nothing is easier to maneuver (taking the stress out of difficult situations) than pods - a your close-in maneuvering is done with an intuitive joystick. Positive & under control.
Dual prop pods are the most efficient way to deliver HP from an internal combustion motor to the water. Well-designed pod-driven yachts can match single screw economy at displacement speeds while still being efficient at planing speeds. You can have your cake and eat it, too.
Most fast boats handle poorly at slow speeds. Since a pod boat steers with 4 propellers, steering is positive at any speed, even with a single motor steering with a pair of counter rotating props.
You can steer in reverse when backing into a slip.
You can for sideways against a 20 knot wind into a small space alongside.
And, when you want to go fast, you can - a well-designed. 40 footer can cruise at speed (21-28 knots) at 1nm/gallon. And there are plenty of boring spots on the Great Loop or in the Bahamas whet it can be nice to have some speed. Rather than spending 8 hours in six footers at 7-1/2 knots you can get through them in 4 hours at 15.
There are many boaters who like having speed available - look at the success of the tug yachts. With the development of the modern diesel, one can efficiently cruise at 8 knots in a boat that can go 30 knots. And with pods, steering is positive at all speeds as is tracking.
I would much rather shoot a treacherous inlet with a lot if reserve power that can get to the water via steerable pods than the typical full displacement single screw trawler.
BTW, no bow nor stern thruster - you have all the thrust you need in those big diesels aft.
And, when you need to hold position waiting on a bridge or lock, you just push a button and a pod boat holds heading and position - close enough that when short handed, on a windy day with no dock boys to help, you can hold position in your slip as you cast off all your lines. Not too shabby.
Pods are a bit less popular in the Pacific Northwest due to the debris in the water. Pluto has not mentioned an interest in the PNW - only the Great Loop and Bahamas. For that type of cruising I would prefer a pod boat, hands down!
The main thing that keeps the number of pod boats down in the PNW (and everywhere else) is the price. A new GB41 (now GB43) with the pod drives is well north of $1 million bucks by the time you get it equipped sufficiently to actually use. And they have not been in production long enough for the used ones to be much less than that.
I've talked to people who have run GB41s and you're correct, they're wonderful when it comes to maneuvering and holding station, going fast when you want or need to. But they are far outside the acquisition range of the typical recreational cruiser buyer who's looking to spend $50K- $250k on a boat.
1977 Tolly tri cabin 34' w/twin 350/255 hp direct drive gets 1 nmpg on plane at 16/17 knots fully loaded w/ 5 adults and two kids. 2.25 to 2.50 nmpg at 6 knots (7.58 is calced hull speed). When you mention 6' waves at 15 knots - you referring to long duration rollers? Or, close duration chop w/ white caps?
rjtrane
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Nothing wrong with those Tolly numbers - but that's for 34 footer - not a 40 plus footer.
I'm talking about heading south on the Jersey coast into 25 knots plus wind and 6 footers all the way from NYC to Cape May. I'd rather tough it out at 15 than at 7 or 8.
In the same weather, turning north in Delaware Bay, with 4 footers, we speed up to 21 or 25 knots. Very exciting passages.
The reason we tend to cruise this way is not for fun - it's on a schedule to get from one boat show in CT to the next in MD. I advocate staying out of nasty seas entirely - and with a retired owner, not on a schedule, one can choose his windows for open water (I'm talking coast wise, of course, not blue water passage making).
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rjtrane
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Pod boats don't need to be any more expensive than the same yacht with the HP for equivalent performance - typically 30% . Of course, you've picked one of the most expensive pod boats to support your position, a Grand Banks.
Our IPS 42 footers sell new for $600k complete and used in the mid $300s. So ALL pod boats are not tremendously expensive. These prices are competitive with a similar sized single screw tug-style yacht.
I know so many of you here are on a budget - this design came across my desk recently - just add a Johnson Seahorse 3 HP and a Marine shelter half or two and a camp stove and you're cruising on a budget!
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Moonstruck
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View from port window off the Georgia Coast 26 knots at 1 mpg 5' quartering sea.
I still can't understand the need and expense of pod drives. The Bahama coral heads could be devastating to pods. High torque twin screws will put a direct drive boat where you want it. If you need more help add a thruster or two. A lot cheaper and less complicated. How do you retrieve a snapped off pod in a remote area? For that matter, how do you find it? I'm very happy with my mechanically injected straight drives. I guess I'm a neanderthal, and doomed to the dark ages forever.l
I still can't understand the need and expense of pod drives. The Bahama coral heads could be devastating to pods. High torque twin screws will put a direct drive boat where you want it. If you need more help add a thruster or two. A lot cheaper and less complicated. How do you retrieve a snapped off pod in a remote area? For that matter, how do you find it? I'm very happy with my mechanically injected straight drives. I guess I'm a neanderthal, and doomed to the dark ages forever.
l
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And you are as guilty as Marin for your comparison. "Single screw tug-style yachts" are the upper limit for single screw boats.
I'll agree with Moonstruck on this one. Pods are just too "elaborate" for me. There is also a little bit of pride and satisfaction in developing a plan to operate your boat and then successfully executing that plan...ie docking your boat in challenging situations. I have just come from my boat in my avatar...single with bow thruster. And am now in the process of buying my first twin engined boat..........should be a lotta fun!!!!
rjtrane -
Nice pict, but, in all due respect, those do not look like 6' waves at 15 knots... 2.5' to 3' maybe?? For 25 years I was brought up on New England coastal travel... NY to Canada. Been in just about every harbor more than once. 1950’s, 60’s, 70’s... before weather predictions of recent times were available... I’ve seen storms similar to the beginnings of Nor’easters suddenly arise while off shore with some real nasty waves cropping up that we had to fight as we headed to a port. Twice weathered hurricanes in harbors, on the hook with motor running to reduce drag on the anchor; Dering Harbor and Boston Harbor. One of our favorite boats was a stout 38’ raised deck semi planing hull sport fisher. Cruise was 12 to 13 knots, WOT 15 to 16. I can well remember the speeds we did in 6’ and even taller “chop-whitecap” waves (not rollers – they are basically no problem)... it was about 7 knots, simply because faster than that into 6’ or taller “chop-waves” would beat a 38 to 40’ boat to death, not to mention the crew.
That said: I’m certain you have a VERY lively experiences at the speeds you mention, for length of time you continue, and into the waves/wind you encounter. Enjoy your every cruise... biz wise or playtime... boats are cool!
And you are as guilty as Marin for your comparison. "Single screw tug-style yachts" are the upper limit for single screw boats.
I'll agree with Moonstruck on this one. Pods are just too "elaborate" for me. There is also a little bit of pride and satisfaction in developing a plan to operate your boat and then successfully executing that plan...ie docking your boat in challenging situations. I have just come from my boat in my avatar...single with bow thruster. And am now in the process of buying my first twin engined boat..........should be a lotta fun!!!!
Twins!!!
- Yeah Baby!! 
You will have equivalent of a waterborne full-track tractor at your command. With a little "fun-time" practice twin screw boat can be made to perform elaborate maneuvers... especially at slow speeds, like when docking! Enjoy!! What make/type boat with twins are you getting??
Agreed! Neanderthals - Unite!!
If I may say so... Actually – single screw straight drive lovers are the Neanderthals / We twin screw lovers are Cro-Magnons. Does that make Pod Drive lovers from Mars??? Just wonderen - LOL
rjtrane
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Pods
I must not have been clear in my comparison to single screw tug style yachts - i was ONLY comparing pricing - "out the door" pricing for a similar-sized, similarly equipped yacht - yes they aren't the same - the tug is single screw and the pods are always two or more motors, four or more screws.
Is the pod more elaborate than you slant shaft with stuffing box, cutlass bearing and single propeller? Yes. But maybe not when you add in a hydraulic steering system with rudder, helm pump(s), hoses and fittings and autopilot pump. Or add in bow thruster with its dedicated battery. Or add in a stern thruster. Pods are fly by wire - with essentially CAT5 wires running from the helm(s) to the motors. No rudders. No place for water to leak. No exhaust system (built in). No water intake(s) (built in). No alignment issues. No leaking stuffing box. No above water exhaust. No motor under the accommodation (out aft, easy to service - noise is outside the boat).
Oh, and the availability of multiple joysticks for easier docking.
No, they're not for everyone - but for certain types of cruising, they function quite well.
And you are as guilty as Marin for your comparison. "Single screw tug-style yachts" are the upper limit for single screw boats.
I'll agree with Moonstruck on this one. Pods are just too "elaborate" for me. There is also a little bit of pride and satisfaction in developing a plan to operate your boat and then successfully executing that plan...ie docking your boat in challenging situations. I have just come from my boat in my avatar...single with bow thruster. And am now in the process of buying my first twin engined boat..........should be a lotta fun!!!!
I must not have been clear in my comparison to single screw tug style yachts - i was ONLY comparing pricing - "out the door" pricing for a similar-sized, similarly equipped yacht - yes they aren't the same - the tug is single screw and the pods are always two or more motors, four or more screws.
Is the pod more elaborate than you slant shaft with stuffing box, cutlass bearing and single propeller? Yes. But maybe not when you add in a hydraulic steering system with rudder, helm pump(s), hoses and fittings and autopilot pump. Or add in bow thruster with its dedicated battery. Or add in a stern thruster. Pods are fly by wire - with essentially CAT5 wires running from the helm(s) to the motors. No rudders. No place for water to leak. No exhaust system (built in). No water intake(s) (built in). No alignment issues. No leaking stuffing box. No above water exhaust. No motor under the accommodation (out aft, easy to service - noise is outside the boat).
Oh, and the availability of multiple joysticks for easier docking.
No, they're not for everyone - but for certain types of cruising, they function quite well.
rjtrane
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rjtrane -
Nice pict, but, in all due respect, those do not look like 6' waves at 15 knots... 2.5' to 3' maybe?? For 25 years I was brought up on New England coastal travel... NY to Canada. Been in just about every harbor more than once. 1950’s, 60’s, 70’s... before weather predictions of recent times were available... I’ve seen storms similar to the beginnings of Nor’easters suddenly arise while off shore with some real nasty waves cropping up that we had to fight as we headed to a port. Twice weathered hurricanes in harbors, on the hook with motor running to reduce drag on the anchor; Dering Harbor and Boston Harbor. One of our favorite boats was a stout 38’ raised deck semi planing hull sport fisher. Cruise was 12 to 13 knots, WOT 15 to 16. I can well remember the speeds we did in 6’ and even taller “chop-whitecap” waves (not rollers – they are basically no problem)... it was about 7 knots, simply because faster than that into 6’ or taller “chop-waves” would beat a 38 to 40’ boat to death, not to mention the crew.
That said: I’m certain you have a VERY lively experiences at the speeds you mention, for length of time you continue, and into the waves/wind you encounter. Enjoy your every cruise... biz wise or playtime... boats are cool!
I apologize for giving the impression that the photo was taken in 6 footers - of course, they are much smaller seas - I'm not about to be hanging on taking photos in 6 footers on the nose. And I agree, that 7 knots is a lot more comfortable in those types of seas. Staying in port is even more comfortable. But, when moving a boat on a schedule, we tend to encounter less than pleasurable days but as long as it's safe, we go. Many times down the Jersey coast or in the Chesapeake, we've motored on while Nordhavns have stayed in port - obviously, they had no need to get somewhere on a schedule and wisely stayed in port.
I think we were actually going around 25 knots when that photo was taken, not 15. Sorry again for the misunderstanding.
BTW, we seem to have very similar boating experience starting in the 50s from Nova Scotia to the Bahamas. I remember a trip in the fog from Halifax to Maine navigating with a compass, a good watch and a Walker taff-rail log. We lost sight of land within an hour of leaving Halifax and made our landfall several days later at Mantinicus right on the money. I think all of us boaters who make it to our age has one or more war stories to tell.
Moonstruck
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This is why I think manufacturers like pods. It simplifies the installation. No pesky engine alignment problems. Fewer hook ups and plumbing to run. Then after saving the labor and time get to charge more and mark up the whole package. Not a bad deal for them at all. Pretty smart really. Get paid more for less work. Now, why didn't I think of that.
I think dealers love them because after seeing them demonstrated, everyone thinks they can be an instant captain. It takes the intimidation factor out of the equation. They are a win/win for the dealer and manufacturer.
beachbum29
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Good luck
rjtrane
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I still can't understand the need and expense of pod drives. The Bahama coral heads could be devastating to pods. High torque twin screws will put a direct drive boat where you want it. If you need more help add a thruster or two. A lot cheaper and less complicated. How do you retrieve a snapped off pod in a remote area? For that matter, how do you find it? I'm very happy with my mechanically injected straight drives. I guess I'm a neanderthal, and doomed to the dark ages forever.
I agree, there is no "need" for pods. Just as there is no need for pleasure yachts. But they sure are nice in tight situations - keeps the yelling to a minimum - likewise, divorces.
The Bahama coral heads are not meant to be run onto at speed. Not even slow speed. Thus the reason for charts and now, GPS. But, should you make a mistake and get off course, these coral heads can be just as devastating to twins - actually can be more so.
I've whacked a submerged timber in NY harbor at 25 knots - significant vibration over 8 knots so we limped to Essex CT and hauled out. We'd bent two starboard props and the shaft. Two days later and a total of 4 man-hours the props and shaft were replaced and we were back in the water. If we'd had any "normal" twin slant shafts with exposed props, struts and rudders, most likely the damage would have included a bent shaft along with prop and rudder damage. Could have been weeks and many more dollars to effect that repair.
A snapped off pod sinks to the bottom - in deep water, you're not going to recover it. In shallow water, your MOB way point will direct a diver to retrieve it. A new pod and props can arrive by air freight within a couple of days - and no more than 8 hours of labor and you're back underway. It's between you and your insurance coverage to determine your out of pocket costs - most likely your deductible only. Very few pods sheer off in reality.
I know you feel it's hard to justify cost of pods - but, from your avatar, it looks like you're driving an East Bay? If you were buying that boat today, most likely she'd come fitted with pods. If you drive faster than displacement speeds, pods save you about 25-30% in fuel. That's due to the increase in performance that lets you use less HP to go at planing speeds. Plus, in new construction (there are virtually no retrofits with pods), you eliminate so many other systems, actually simplifying your life.
As fuel continues to be an issue, as are emissions, we are doomed to the future - mechanical diesels giving way to more efficient, smoother running, quieter, non-polluting, electronically-controlled ones - and pods for the faster boats. Each year, more boat manufacturers are either offering pods as options or making them standard - All of Sabre Yachts' new models have pods - as do the new Grand Banks (Gasp!) and East Bays. Think of it as automatic transmissions in cars - in the 50s we all loved double-shifting our non-syncro transmissions into first w/o stopping - we swore we'd never own a car with a hydroglide transmission. Ditto, power windows. Now, it's hard to find a car with a manual and I haven't seen roll up windows in years. Heck, they all have blue tooth, too.
If you're into faster cruising yachts, you may wish take a ride on a pod boat AND you just might enjoy it? (Just make sure none of your friends see you smiling!)
