Lehman Replacement

Was down in Seattle yesterday and stopped at Klassen Engines for some parts. Talked to Dave about a number of things and looked around at the new engines. I'm submitting information about the following engine as it looks like a great replacement for Lehman or 6-356 Perkins engines.

It's a very compact and competitive in line 4 cyl eng w 4 valves per cyl.
Dave has 3 of these engines at $16K per engine.
They weigh half as much as the Lehman.

Power 175.5 hp
Weight 728 lbs
Rated speed 3500
Specific fuel consumption .43 lbs per hp hour
oil change interval 600 hours
Flywheel SAE 4, 8" dia.

"Full throttle operation restricted within 10% of total use period.
Cruising speed at engine rpm <90% of rated speed setting -
Maximum usage 1500 hrs per year."

The engines are painted white and have an extremely compact look about them.
Length w exhaust sticking out a few inches is 37"
Width 31"
Height 30"

That would be a great re power option. Compact footprint would open up a lot of the engine room spaces I've seen too.

So who makes these nifty new engines?

What "brand" are they? Did I miss that?

I was concentrating so much on the genral specs I missed it. Iveco. They are offered by Fiat Powertrain Technologies. (FPT).

The local source I'm talk'in about is;
Klassen Engines Co.
1538 NW 50th st.
Seattle Wash 98107
206 784 0148
http://www.fptpowertrain.com

I never heard of that brand around here (New England) or have ever heard of anyone claiming to be a dealer, therefore it would not be a viable option for me.

The Mesamarine manifold catalogue lists a number of kits for converting light truck diesels. A potential low cost approach.

manyboats said:

I was concentrating so much on the genral specs I missed it. Iveco. They are offered by Fiat Powertrain Technologies. (FPT).

The local source I'm talk'in about is;
Klassen Engines Co.
1538 NW 50th st.
Seattle Wash 98107
206 784 0148
http://www.fptpowertrain.com

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While from your deswcription they sound like good engines and a decent value I'd be concerned that in 10 years when you need parts, specifically marinization parts for example that they might not be available.

There are some interesting threads on boatdiesel about Ivecos. Some happy users and some not so. For that price a Cummins reman 220 NA is a good/better alternative.

IVECO is a very large international truck and bus manufacturer. Iveco

Iveco is a brand I'm familiar with Eric. Who does the marinization?

If Iveco is doing it in house I seriously doubt parts availability in the future would be an issue, unlike the infamous Volvo rebranding issues.

The current Iveco web site does not list the U.S. as a country where they do business.

skidgear said:

The current Iveco web site does not list the U.S. as a country where they do business.

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Interesting. I'm sure I've seen IVECO trucks here but it's possible I'm mistaken. We certainly see them just about everywhere else we go on the planet.

But if they in fact are not active in the US that could make those three engines Eric saw very difficult to get parts and service for. Parts maybe not so much if they can be ordered from an IVECO distributor/dealer in another country. Service could be tough, however.

On the other hand, when I bought my Land Rover Series III-88 new in 1973 while living in Hawaii there was no Land Rover/British Leyland dealer or service facility in the state. The vehicle itself was "mail order" from a dealer in the SFO bay area, and the following year Rover pulled out of the US completely leaving no product support at all.

But there was (and still is) a great independent Land Rover parts supplier in the US and the vehicle came with the factory shop manual. I still have the Land Rover and other than when I had the head overhauled as a result of a burned exhaust valve, I have done all the work on it myself.

So in the hands of someone with decent mechanical abilities who has a reliable parts source--- including the marinization kit parts--- and a shop manual, the engine could prove to be a good, reliable powerplant in a boat.

skidgear said:

The current Iveco web site does not list the U.S. as a country where they do business.

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Apparently the website needs updating. Eric looked at them in a shop in Washington state.

Edit: And an Iveco box truck made a delivery to me yesterday in California.

CPseudonym said:

Apparently the website needs updating. Eric looked at them in a shop in Washington state.

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True enough, but I suppose it's possible the shop acquired these engines via a third party, not directly from IVECO. It would be interesting to hear from the shop what sort of support these engines have in the US.

The lesson to be learned here is the same lesson that Bayliner owners are learning about their HINO engines, abet on a much more difficult scale.

In much of the the 80's and through 1994 Bayliner motoryachts utilized a really great series of engines on their boats, the HINO engine. Hino seems to be the industrial engine side of Toyota I believe. They produced hundreds of boats, possibly thousands of boats with these fine engines.

Now fast forward to 2013

Many Hino parts are very easy to get. Some are very difficult, and very expensive. The hardest most expensive parts seem to be the marinzation parts. In the HINO engines it appears from my listening to owners issues is the maincooler, which has a cost of up to several thousand dollars.

When you buy a marine engine, you are not just buying the engine. you are buying the promise or the preceived promise of long term parts support. If a engine manufacturer ventures into the marine business, and later gets out of that business for any reason, the owner of those engines could be left scrounging for parts.

That said, if IVECO marinized the engines utilizing off the shelf components, like heat exchangers, etc... then it might not be so much of a risk. I would look carefully at these engines to determine what specilized parts were used in the marinization. Heat exchangers and raw water pumps are pretty standard items you could source. Things like water jacket cooled exhaust manifolds are another story alltogether.

Just out of curiosity does anyone know how much American Diesel gets for one of their new (reman) Lehman's

I don't think American Diesel does that anymore. Actually, the engine they sold as an FL120 replacement was not a remanufactured FL120 but was a brand new Ford of England diesel that American Diesel marinized. This engine develops 150 hp instead of the FL120's 120 hp, but it has the same footprint and engine mounts of the much older Dorset engine (base engine for the FL120). Either that or American Diesel had new mounts fabricated that made the new 150 hp engine a drop-in for the old FL120.

I believe-- but I could be wrong--- that Ford stopped making this 150 hp engine a few years ago and that was the end of American Diesel's drop-in replacement program. But for whatever reason, they no longer offer this engine.

I don't know if they overhaul FL120s, 135's etc in their facility or if today they just sell parts and overhaul components like the injection pump and so forth.

mycows said:

Just out of curiosity does anyone know how much American Diesel gets for one of their new (reman) Lehman's

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I just saw one the other day at Harbor Marine in Everett WA. Don't know who remanufactured it or whatever but I had sticker shock looking at the price that I can't recall now.

Iveco is a sub of Fiat and Fiat is one of the worlds largest auto and engine manufacturers. This engine seems to have all the modern stuff and is not likely to drop off the map. I didn't look at it very closely but all the other engines that Klassen has offered has the same style welded steel exhaust manifold that was one of the features I wanted when I repowered Willy. I'm quite sure the Iveco has an aluminum exhaust manifold and is marinized by Iveco. This feature in my mind would not be a plus but for many or even most it would.

Mycows,
Even if a rebuilt/man Lehman was available I can't imagine one going that route unless the old reman was MUCH cheaper. And I think it was at least $10,000 and perhaps about the same price as the Iveco. It's a little like rebuilding a 36 Plymouth.

Here's what 10K will get you on a re-manufactured FL.

Bomac Marine Power Corp.

REMANUFACTURED LEHMAN/FORD DIESEL
ENGINE REBUILD CONSISTS OF THE FOLLOWING[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]:
[/FONT][/FONT]Machine Work and Parts
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Exhaust Manifold
Exhaust Elbow
Bore Block
Grind and Polish Crank
Reconditioned Connecting Rods
R&R Wrist Pin Bushings
New Pistons/Rings/Pins
New Main Bearings
New Rod Bearings
New Cam Bearings
New Cam Thrust Washers
New Front and Rear Seals
Remanufacture Your Raw Water Pump with Gaskets
New Fuel Lift Pump with gasket
New Circulating Fresh Water Pump with Gasket
New Thermostat and Gasket
New Valves
Grind Seats
New Injector Tips
Remanufactured Injection Pump
New Engine Oil Cooler
New Water Hoses (all)
New Heat Exchanger
New Oil Lines
New Starter
Engine Painted Red
*** Customer is responsible for all freight and insurance coverage
***WARRANTY IS 6 MONTHS FROM THE DATE OF INSTALLATION
Installation must be Within 30 days of Possession of the Engine
[/FONT][/FONT]

Eric, is Klassen an Iveco dealer? . Last year on boatdiesel Paul Foulston was very complimentary on the Iveco 4 cylinder marinization as was Tony Athens a few years before that. The big issue has been questions on dealer support. As Craig says, maybe this is a European engine waiting to catch on over here.

Can Lehman be rebuilt in frame?

That is on the the plus of the DD as they can be rebuilt in place frame at 2 grand per hole.

sunchaser said:

There are some interesting threads on boatdiesel about Ivecos. Some happy users and some not so. For that price a Cummins reman 220 NA is a good/better alternative.

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Out of curiosity Tom. How much are the Cummins 220 reman's going for currently? I've "heard" north of $20K but in all fairness I cannot remember the model and HP that number was tied to.

I think I would go with the Cummins reman also. Just the dealer network and amount of parts around would make me sleep better. Nothing against the Iveco, they are well regarded.

Hi Tom,
You'd have to ask Dave if he/they are a dealer. On the brochure he gave me there is a window on the back that says "distributor" and he has his rubber stamp in it.
I think Klassen is a dealer though.
The shop in Ballard in Seattle that I deal w is an offshoot of the main facility in SW BC ... Delta, Surry or ???

The brochure goes on to tell about low vibration, noise and excellent serviceability w electronic control protection and diagnostics.

I drove a new diesel Jetta and that experience showed me there has been a very significant improvement in engine technology. Very high low speed torque too.

To my way of thinking a new engine is light years ahead of any typical rebuild. And w a rebuild you get absolutely NONE of the improvements the new engines have. Would you rather rebuild your 73 Buick or buy a new car. And for the guys that say they wouldn't have anything to do w an electronically controlled engine ... fine ...they can put a carburetor on their car.

Phil Fill said:

Can Lehman be rebuilt in frame?

That is on the the plus of the DD as they can be rebuilt in place frame at 2 grand per hole.

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I was told by my friend with Alaska Diesel Electric (today's Northern Lights/Lugger) that it can. I've also been told that by our diesel shop. However they both said it will require considerably less labor to pull the engine and overhaul it in the shop so an in-situ overhaul is not cost-effective. But if it's the only way it can be done in a particular situation, I'm told it can be.

Much easier in a single than in a twin obviously.

I thought about shipping out one of the Lehman replacements when I had to do a repower about 5 years ago. Turns out they don't meet our gov regulations over here in Oz, so it seems we are stuck with rebuilds.

I guess I could have changed the old Lehman with a new more efficient engine, but I like to have the same engines in the boat.

10 K for a Ford Lehman. If I was price driven I think I would go that route, Yes I know they smoke and they vibrate and they are old technology but to have the engine bolt right in the old location is worth a lot. If money were no object I think a John Deere and Twin Disc gears would be an option

CPseudonym said:

Out of curiosity Tom. How much are the Cummins 220 reman's going for currently? I've "heard" north of $20K but in all fairness I cannot remember the model and HP that number was tied to.

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In Seattle this past January, for fun I priced out 5 or 6 new engines at the boat show. I had a great talk with the West Coast mgr. for Cummins, and seem to remember the reman NA 5.9 at mid teens with the 370HP about the range you mentioned - North of $20K. Full warranty to boot.

sunchaser said:

In Seattle this past January, for fun I priced out 5 or 6 new engines at the boat show. I had a great talk with the West Coast mgr. for Cummins, and seem to remember the reman NA 5.9 at mid teens with the 370HP about the range you mentioned - North of $20K. Full warranty to boot.

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Thanks Tom. I think my friend was talking about the higher HP 370 now that you mention it. The Cummins are proven runners and would be a fine choice for anyone.

Last year when I repowered with Cummins recon engines the 330HP repower units were 19K. No core charge, drop in, 2 year warranty with extended warranties available for additional cost.