Holding tank - No Y Valve?

I'm totally re-plumbing my aft head and holding tank. The old system had the outlet of the tank plumbed to a Y valve, one side going to the macerator for overboard discharge, and the other to the deck pump-out fitting. The head itself pumps directly into the tank no matter what.

I'm not really sure what good the Y valve does in this case. It's a magnet for uninformed boarding officers, so I'd just as soon replace it with a "T" fitting.

The T would be upside down, one arm into the bottom fitting on the tank, the base of the T (pointing up) would have a 1-1/2" hose directly up to the deck fitting, and the other arm would go to the macerator.

Using the macerator would only pump waste no matter what. Using the pump-out fitting with the overboard discharge through-hull closed would only suck up waste. If I forgot to close the through-hull (I don't usually, but it could happen) and used the pump-out, it would probably be sucking both waste and seawater. Not a huge deal unless they start charging by the gallon for pump-outs.

Thoughts?

CaptTom said:

Using the macerator would only pump waste no matter what. Using the pump-out fitting with the overboard discharge through-hull closed would only suck up waste. If I forgot to close the through-hull (I don't usually, but it could happen) and used the pump-out, it would probably be sucking both waste and seawater. Not a huge deal unless they start charging by the gallon for pump-outs.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Wouldn't there be a check valve between the macerator and the hull fitting to keep raw water from free flowing into the holding tank?

I am with you for eliminating fittings that serve no useful purpose. If you can be sure that your macerator would provide sufficient resistance to back flow that your tank will get emptied when connected to a pump-out sucker, that sounds like a good modification to make.
One thing the uninformed boarding officers look for is a way to lock the Y valve so there will be no accidental overboard discharge. You may need to add something to your thru hull to achieve that purpose.

Rambler said:

Wouldn't there be a check valve between the macerator and the hull fitting to keep raw water from free flowing into the holding tank?

Click to expand...

Not if the macerator is above the water line.

As for the boarding officers, I didn't want to hijack my own thread with a tirade on how many different ways there are to interpret the rule in question. The law is very vague, although the examples cited steer people toward locking the through-hull or Y valve.

New production boats from Brunswick just have a double rocker switch. Apparently their attorneys have found this adequate. But I don't know if everyone doing inspections agrees. I'm thinking of maybe replacing the macerator switch with a key switch, and not keeping the key in it.

The USCG boarded my sailboat several years ago. The sailboat had a Y valve between the head and the holding tank that allowed the head to flush directly overboard. The Y valve was locked in the not-overboard position when I was boarded. Though there was no way to actually prove this was the correct, legal position, the boarding party just looked at the locked Y valve and checked off that the sanitation system was compliant.

I've been boarded twice in my '95 Bayliner 4788. It has a setup similar to the OP - a T after the holding tank, one branch goes to the macerator then overboard and the other branch to the deck pumpout fitting. There is no seacock or check valve on the overboard side of the T (this being Bayliner) and the deck pumpout works fine pulling against the macerator pump. There is also a double-switch for the macerator as in the "Brunswick" description above.

The first boarding team was very casual and didn't leave the pilothouse. They just asked questions and happily checked things off based on my answer. Didn't inspect anything.

The second boarding team climbed around the boat and had to see things. They didn't even try to understand the sanitation system but instead put some powdered dye in one of the heads and flushed it. Nothing more was said but I suspect there would have been "consequences" had the water around the boat turned orange.

You might want to consider the ability to pump using your macerator to a shore tank. In the absence of a vacuum system it provides an option to pump off the holding tank with positive pressure. We have our system set up that way. It can be locked to satisfy the authorities.

JohnWms said:

...There is no seacock or check valve on the overboard side of the T (this being Bayliner) and the deck pumpout works fine pulling against the macerator pump.

Click to expand...

No valve on a through-hull? Is it above the water line?

Anyway, that's exactly what I plan to do (plus the valve), thanks for the info.

I'm thinking of mounting the macerator on top of the tank just to get it a foot and a half higher above the waterline.

I removed the Y valve and the holding tank macerator on the aft head and plumbed straight to holding tank (Great Lakes). Dockside pumpout is unchanged.

For the forward head, I moved the Y valve to a new location in the system. It is now directly below the vented loop that I added to the discharge line from the head (which keeps water in the bowl and odors out). As for the rear tank, the holding tank overboard macerator was removed (Great Lakes). One leg of the Y discharges directly into the holding tank. The other leg pumps directly overboard. The latter capability was only retained for the possibility that the boat might eventually get sold to a buyer on the east coast. The Y valve for the forward head is lock wired to the tank position, plus it is buried deep in the cabinetry next to the head. The thru hull for the overboard discharge is closed, but not wired (the lock wired Y-valve takes care of the reg requirement). I have the dockside USCG safety inspection done every year and have never been questioned regarding the arrangement. And with the inspection sticker, I never get boarded...the boys in blue cruise down the port side, spot the sticker and keep going. The overboard macerator pumps could be reinstalled with little trouble.

CaptTom said:

No valve on a through-hull? Is it above the water line?

Anyway, that's exactly what I plan to do (plus the valve), thanks for the info.

I'm thinking of mounting the macerator on top of the tank just to get it a foot and a half higher above the waterline.

Click to expand...

Yes, the through-hull is about a foot above the waterline. Not ideal but it's "Bayliner spec".

JohnWms said:

Yes, the through-hull is about a foot above the waterline. Not ideal but it's "Bayliner spec".

Click to expand...

They (Brunswick, and before them, US Marine) build boats to suit the market. My 2003 Bayliner has no coring below the waterline, all bronze through-hulls with proper valves, and a bunch of other stuff that the beginner boater might not notice. I can only assume they did a cost/benefit analysis and figured that there are enough potential customers who care about these things to make it worthwhile. I'm going to miss that boat, and I'll always bristle at Bayliner bashing.

Still, macerator discharge a foot above the waterline? Yecch.

CaptTom, My boat is set up just as you suggest. Toilet discharges into the holding tank. There is a tee on the discharge with one hose going to the deck fitting and the other to a Jabsco macerator pump. The pump discharges through a seacock well below the waterline. The Jabsco macerator is a rubber impeller pump and water can not back flow through it so no problem with sucking seawater through the deck fitting or flowing into the tank.

"I'm thinking of maybe replacing the macerator switch with a key switch, and not keeping the key in it."
Peggie Hall once suggested that. I think it's a great idea. Then you don't have to mess with locking the seacock closed.

No Y valve for us.

We plumbed the head to the holding tank and the tank to the deck fitting with a Y (not valve) AT the fitting and then to the OB dump pump.

With the deck cap in place OB is a push of the button , offshore of course.

With the cap removed or simply loose , the pump can not draw from the tank.

I keep the cap in the "captains drawer", inshore and believe it is far better than a Y valve with lock and key to meet the poop police rules..

KISS rules!

FF can you explain this a little differently? I don't quite understand this set up.
(Or if you'll be in CT soon stop by Yankee Boatyard. I'll be there many days during May working on the boat)

Draw a straight line , and put a vertical line in the middle.

One end is the holding tank , the other end is the OB pump, the tick is the deck fitting that can be capped .


The waste tank and OB pump are connected , but with a 3 way fitting (not a valve) the Y in the middle .

The deck pump out is the 3rd leg .

IF the pump out cap is in place the OB pump can suck the waste , if the cap is removed too much air gets in so there can be no OB pump action.

With the cap removed the dock or honey bucket boat can pump the waste tank, as the OB pump blocks any outside water from entering.

Should it be needed a pail or hose can fill both the pump and tank , the cap replaced and the pump has no suction problems from past waste. Also allows flushing the tank dockside .


KISS!

FF:
With the cap in the captain's drawer, how do you prevent unpleasant odor from wafting out the deck fitting?

koliver said:

FF:
With the cap in the captain's drawer, how do you prevent unpleasant odor from wafting out the deck fitting?

Click to expand...

Yes, my question also. In addition, what's to keep extraneous material, insects, rodents, things kids/practical jokers like to put down holes, etc, out..?

Thank you FF now I get it. But I have the same question regarding smell and insects.

Isn't the location of the Y-valve that needs to be locked between the head and holding tank-or-overboard? If your head goes directly into the holding tank with no other option, aren't you in compliance?

I've been thinking of doing the exact same thing as Capt Tom, the OP. In my case, I have a Sealand Macerator pump that uses duckbill valves on the input and output lines and it is well below the waterline. My concern is that the shore pump out could invert the duckbill valve which would permanently damage it. I would love to get rid of all the excess hose and Y-valve.

I would just remove the handle to the overboard seacock for the inspectors.

Any thoughts on this?

Ron

jeffnick said:

Isn't the location of the Y-valve that needs to be locked between the head and holding tank-or-overboard? If your head goes directly into the holding tank with no other option, aren't you in compliance?

Click to expand...

Yes and yes.

jeffnick said:

Isn't the location of the Y-valve that needs to be locked between the head and holding tank-or-overboard? If your head goes directly into the holding tank with no other option, aren't you in compliance?

Click to expand...

That's a point of contention, and the rules are open to some interpretation. But in the end, what's written is irrelevant. The law IS what the lawmen DO.

They've all been taught to look for a Y valve and make sure it's locked. This dates from the old days when there was always a Y valve that sent the waste overboard one way, and into the tank the other.

To make the boarding officers happy, you'd do well to lock the through-hull valve shut with a wire tie or padlock, or install a key switch (and not leave the key in it!) Other options are the 2 hidden switches that my Bayliner has, or some of the other creative suggestions posted here. Just remember that you may still meet a think-headed boarding officer who was trained to look for Y valves and won't listen to reason.

Ron, my gut feeling is that the duckbill valves wouldn't invert but you could put a check valve in the line between the tank and the pump just to be sure.

No more odor comes from a larger vent area than the usually tiny vent (usually a fuel vent fitting) as on most boats.

The joys of preferring to anchor out rather than running from marina to marina is few get to fool with putting stuff in an open waste fitting.

When unused the boat is at home dock, or anchored out at a mooring.

A thief coming aboard will probably have the VHF in mind rather than vent stuffing.

You normally find out a macerator pump has tossed the flaps off the impeller and needs a rebuild when the tank is full and you need to empty it. A valve between the tank and pump makes a clean set-up. (pun intended)

My boat doesn't have a Y valve. have two separate pck up tubes, one goes to the macerator and the other goes to the deck pumpout. Ths causes no end to consternation to the folks nspectng the boat. To pump overboard, you have to open a thru hull valve, turn a breaker on and turn a keyed power swtch on. Ths usually satsfes them. (Sorry, no aye key today). Here are the rules straight from the CFR:

(b) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge
of treated or untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental
Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3 or 140.4, the operator must secure
each Type I or Type II device in a manner which prevents discharge of
treated or untreated sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device
include--
(1) Closing the seacock and removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking the seacock in the closed position;
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold the seacock in the
closed position; or
(4) Locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets with a
padlock or door handle key lock.
(c) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge
of untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency
under 40 CFR 140.3, the operator must secure each Type III device in a
manner which prevents discharge of sewage. Acceptable methods of
securing the device include--
(1) Closing each valve leading to an overboard discharge and
removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the
closed position; or
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold each valve leading to an
overboard discharge in the closed position.

[CGH 95-028, 62 FR 51194, Sept. 30, 1997]

...wonder if inspectors would be OK with leaving the key on a hook beside the door lock....

Note the turn of phrase "Acceptable methods of securing the device
include..."

In other words, this is not intended to be an exhaustive list of acceptable methods, only examples. Still, picking from the list will save you some time with a well-trained boarding officer.

Hopcar Wrote:
"Let me know how it works out. I think I'd try it without the check valve first. I'm a little worried that the check valve could foul. You might want to use an oversize valve."

This is something I've been thinking about for awhile. If I do it, it wouldn't be until next fall or winter. I'm thinking of asking Sealand what they thought of their macerator pump surviving the pump out but I'm pretty sure they would CYA any answer.

I was going to see if there is a check valve designed for this application - maybe Sealand has one. I don't think I would have a solids problem as my boat has Tecma heads and they macerate on the flush.

The American Tug comes with a macerator and a key switch at the helm. I've been inspected by the CG in Lake MI, and twice in FL. I explained the system and said that only the Captain has a key, and it was approved both times.