dragged anchor

ColonyCove · Apr 27, 2013

I am as happy as a clam with my Fortress FX-23, although I wish I had an FX-37 for the boat I have now. The Fortress I have is one of the few things I kept from my previous boat, a 34 footer, so it might be a tad small for a 40 footer. Speaking of which, I did put about a 10 degree bend in the part they call the stock one wild night, and they did send me the new part. I use it as a secondary anchor and it did a terrific job two weekends ago when the Delta wouldn't grab in three tries. I guess the North Carolina mud called hard pan by Moonstruck was too much for the Delta, because it worked fine elsewhere.
I was just surprised that I dragged and couldn't get a set in 15 mph winds. Seems it should have taken a harder blow to give so much trouble. That's the reason I started this thread.

Peter B · Apr 27, 2013

I suspect, and have so for a long time, especially as I wander marinas over here in Australia, and see so many still using CQR type anchors, the reason you don't hear about dragging all that often is most of the time we go out of our way, literally and figuratively, to avoid finding ourselves anchored in a place or weather pattern likely to put the anchor to any real test. Hence giving rise to the old saying, 'the anchor normally merely locates the end of the rode and tacks it to the sea bottom', the length and weight of the rode does the rest. That holds good until the unexpected happens, and then, and only then, one really discovers the true holding power of the said anchor.
I have noticed when the anchor fails to set because of unsuitable bottom, the owner then usually excuses the anchor on a those grounds, and moves to somewhere it will set, because at least one has warning of the potential for trouble when it does not set initially.

What amazes me is how few seem to ask themselves why not get an anchor that sets quickly and easily in nearly any bottom. That is where the newer anchor technology comes in. I'll say no more, as most on this board know what anchor I use, and I don't wish to hijack the thread. My intent was just to pose a possible answer to the question Eric raised as to why there appear to be so few complaints from owners/users of anchors which perform so poorly in tests.

River Cruiser · Apr 27, 2013

ColonyCove said:
I am as happy as a clam with my Fortress FX-23, although I wish I had an FX-37 for the boat I have now. The Fortress I have is one of the few things I kept from my previous boat, a 34 footer, so it might be a tad small for a 40 footer. Speaking of which, I did put about a 10 degree bend in the part they call the stock one wild night, and they did send me the new part. I use it as a secondary anchor and it did a terrific job two weekends ago when the Delta wouldn't grab in three tries. I guess the North Carolina mud called hard pan by Moonstruck was too much for the Delta, because it worked fine elsewhere.
I was just surprised that I dragged and couldn't get a set in 15 mph winds. Seems it should have taken a harder blow to give so much trouble. That's the reason I started this thread.

I went from a FX-23 to a FX-37 on my 38' Bayliner & I'am seriously considering going back to the 23. The 37 gets a excellent bite in the river mud or sand making it hard to extract at times. On the last outing last year I tore up the bow roller assy. I motored over the anchor, used the windlass to get all the slack out of the chain & pulled it out of the bottom with part of the 350 hp available & the bow roller & brackets were trashed. The 37 makes for a easy nights sleep but the 23 never dragged I just thought bigger is better & the 37 would lay on the pulpit. I've got a heavy built SS roller assy. to replace the pulpit, after it's installed I'll decide which one to hang on it.

Marin · Apr 27, 2013

River Cruiser said:
I motored over the anchor, used the windlass to get all the slack out of the chain & pulled it out of the bottom with part of the 350 hp available & the bow roller & brackets were trashed.

This is why we were taught never to set or break out our anchor against the pulpit or the windlass gears. Instead we always use our "set/break-out" line; a short, stout, twisted-strand line with a chain-hook on one end. The other end gets cleated off to one of our heavily backed foredeck cleats. All setting and break-out pressure is put against this line and the cleat, never the pulpit, rollers, or windlass gears.

Nomad Willy · Apr 27, 2013

Brian,
Thank's for the comprehensive post.

I thought of the Super Max but I would think the'd use the word "Super".

Mac Maloney using the CQR should be a great endorsement for the old CQR and I have an mud anchor test that the CQR won as well. My favorite anchor is a modified XYZ. An early XYZ won top honors in another anchor I read but not carefully enough (didn't realize it was mud only) ... bought one and It's holding power was tested by me in a 50 knot gale but it otherwise rarely set. I have a newer XYZ and needed a fluke tip and the XYZ guy wouldn't supply me w a replacement after only a year. Made my own and it's worked very well but has a wide chisel shaped tip so I must have anchored only on soft bottoms. I've been saying the biggest variable in anchoring is the sea floor. And when anchors seem to fail I'll bet most all the time it's the bottom that failed .. not the anchor.

Re the stock bar I suspected as much ... kind of a basic stabilizing device. In a test that featured an anchor that lacked the Stock it wound up w one fluke up in the air and broke out. I'll bet a rock rolled the anchor sideways.

And I agree 110% w your last statement. I've contended for some time that the roll bars inhibit penetration much past the surface. But the M Supreme and the Rocna perform very well in tests. I have a Supreme and thought it's setting performance was slow and undeceive but lately it seems to set normally. There again probably the bottom.

CC,
I agree ... Bigger is only better if whatever .... is not big enough.

River Cruiser · Apr 27, 2013

Marin said:
This is why we were taught never to set or break out our anchor against the pulpit or the windlass gears. Instead we always use our "set/break-out" line; a short, stout, twisted-strand line with a chain-hook on one end. The other end gets cleated off to one of our heavily backed foredeck cleats. All setting and break-out pressure is put against this line and the cleat, never the pulpit, rollers, or windlass gears.

By myself in the areas (sloughs & off channel) I normally find to anchor the time required to do that while in the current & being away from the helm causes me more worry than a tweaked bow roller. When someone is along then using the toe switches at the bow instead of the FB helm switch is my preferred method. The windlass has a clutch so I don't worry to much about damaging it, my mistake was in not just sitting there & letting the current loosen the anchor while I kept a pull on the chain, haste makes waste.

Andy G · Apr 28, 2013

CPseudonym;152560]High jack starting.

Andy and Bruce: I would love a 13kg Sacra but the shipping cost estimate from UPS would be more than the anchor cost. Sure hope they'd start distributing in the states. It does look well suited to our Delta mud here in California.

High jack over.

Ah ha, now you know how we ex convicts feel every time we see a must have boating 'toy' at half the $ cost your side of the pond.Very frustrating.

ColonyCove · Apr 28, 2013

I don't know if it's the solution or not yet, but I was in my local WM and they had a Rocna model 20 (44lbs.) for sale as a "scratch and dent" item. I asked the salesman how you scratch or dent an anchor so that the price must be lowered. He showed me an irregular shape of approximately 3/8" on the top of the shank where it was indeed hit by something, creating a mark some .0005" high. I can live with that, and since Wichard stainless-steel shackles were also on sale; I'm now the proud owner of the Rocna. I moved the Delta to the garage for now, which by the way weighs 35 lbs. in response to an earlier question on this thread (weighed it on the bathroom scale). The plan now is to test the new anchor on an upcoming cruise in the Pamlico and Albermarle Sound areas.

Nomad Willy · Apr 28, 2013

Let's see how it works at 2-1 scope .... Just as an experiment.

CPseudonym · Apr 28, 2013

Andy G said:
Ah ha, now you know how we ex convicts feel every time we see a must have boating 'toy' at half the $ cost your side of the pond.Very frustrating.

Point well taken Andy

Anchor Brian · Apr 29, 2013

Eric,

I checked the Sailing Foundation test results we have on file and the Davis 45 looks like a fisherman type anchor, except that it also has stock running through the center.

I am surprised that the XYZ guy was not more accommodating with you, since his anchor is relatively new and supporters with loud voices are mission critical.

The Manson Supreme is a strong anchor and I am sure you will find it to be very dependable. It will be interesting to see how their new Boss anchor fares as well.

The Spade is also an impressive anchor, and in addition to the Excel, it has been a top performer in every anchor test I have seen over the years.

Regards,
Brian

Peter B · Apr 29, 2013

Andy G said:
CPseudonym;152560]High jack starting.

Andy and Bruce: I would love a 13kg Sacra but the shipping cost estimate from UPS would be more than the anchor cost. Sure hope they'd start distributing in the states. It does look well suited to our Delta mud here in California.

High jack over.

Ah ha, now you know how we ex convicts feel every time we see a must have boating 'toy' at half the $ cost your side of the pond.Very frustrating.

Careful about those ex-con cracks Andy. Not all of us come from such stock.....
Still, you are right about the rip-offs here compared to US prices. There has been a bit of argy bargy here in our papers recently as to this very issue, and as an example, (no, I'm not even close to being in the market for one), but the price of a Porsch 911 costing still 172% more here than in the US even now, when our dollar has been = $US 1.03 to 1.05 for a couple of years now. Explain that.

HopCar · Apr 29, 2013

I'd like to throw in a comment about the people at Fortress. They are really nice folks to deal with. They produce a quality product and they really do stand behind it. If you break or bend it, just send them the old part and very quickly you'll have a replacement.

One quirk they have is that they won't ship the replacement parts to their dealers. I once had a customer bring in a bent Fortress fluke and we said we'd be glad to get the replacement for them. They insisted on shipping the replacement directly to the customer. Not a bad idea. I think they like direct contact with users of their product.

Anchor Brian · Apr 29, 2013

Hi HopCar,

Thanks for your post. I assume that you represent Hopkins Carter out of Miami, whom I think is one of the oldest marine accessory dealers in the area, if not the country, as they have been in business since 1916, which is obviously very impressive.

A couple of clarifications to your comments:

1. A customer does not have to send the damaged parts back to us for the warranty.

2. The key reason why we want the customer to deal directly with us is to eliminate the inconvenience of them having to make a 2nd trip back to the store to pick up the parts. For some people, that could be a good distance.

Regards,
Brian

HopCar · Apr 29, 2013

Hi Brian,
You figured me out! Hopkins-Carter it is.

"1. A customer does not have to send the damaged parts back to us for the warranty.

2. The key reason why we want the customer to deal directly with us is to eliminate the inconvenience of them having to make a 2nd trip back to the store to pick up the parts. For some people, that could be a good distance."

That's good to know. If you ever get down to Miami, please stop in and say hello. I've been to your warehouse in Ft. Lauderdale a couple of times picking up our orders.

Marin · Apr 29, 2013

The Fortress is a great product. Our boat came with a Danforth knock-off in a mount on the swimstep that was intended for use as a stern anchor. But it was virtually useless in this role, not because of its design but because of its weight. We just didn't want to use it--- lift it in and out of the dinghy, risking our fingers, lowering it over side of the dinghy and so on. So we endured yawing on a mooring with the accompanying annoying roll as the boat swung back and forth off the waves instead of fixing the situation with the stern anchor.

It didn't take us long to come to the realization that enough was enough. So we gave the heavy Danforth knock-off to a friend who wanted it for yard art and replaced it with a Fortress FX-23.

The Fortress immediately solved our "problem." It's easy to get into the dinghy without the risk of "pinched finger" syndrome because it's light and easy to hold correctly. It's easy to deploy from the dinghy.

It's superior holding power in the bottoms the design is suited for has long been proven in countless anchor tests, but this combined with its easy-to-handle weight makes it a truly versatile device, one that in our application encourages it's use rather than discourages it.

We've used it to help keep a club raft in place and last year when the wind shifted we had eight boats hanging on the thing. And this was off an anchor that we'd originally just set by hand by pulling on its rode from the GB.

We sized the Fortress and its rode to be the main anchor/rode for our boat should we encounter an anchoring situation our main anchor doesn't do well in. Based on the performance of our main anchor over the last eight years or so we don't foresee every having to use the Fortress in this way, but it's nice to know it's there and ready to be deployed off the bow if necessary.

I don't know who came up with the original idea for the Fortress but they certainly did the boating community a big favor by doing so.

jukesy · Apr 29, 2013

Marin said:
The single greatest negative with the Fortress we read about when researching anchors to replace our Bruce is that under a lot of pressure it bends. And can bend quiet badly if the pull gets off to the side and the anchor doesn't unset.

This is understandable given its construction. But if one is looking for a storm anchor that will hold like stink, the Fortress would actually seem to be a poor choice if the wind is going to veer round and the pull go off to the side. In test after test of this that we saw, the Fortess bent and sometimes very severely. Just something to keep in mind.

???

jukesy · Apr 30, 2013

None taken

Anchor Brian · Apr 30, 2013

Marin,

Thanks for the terrific testimonial. After reading it I was wondering if / how we could get you on our payroll.

Our late company founder, Don Hallerberg, was quite an adventurous boater. He took one of his boats 1,000 miles up the Amazon River and later on he outfitted a 1981 77' Hatteras for long range cruising. He crossed the Atlantic a few times in this boat and then completed a circumnavigation in his early 70s.

You mentioned the Bruce, and I remember him saying how incredibly strong the original Bruce anchor was. I think it might have once broken or maxed out "Black Maria," a hydraulic set up we use here at Fortress to test anchors for structural integrity.

Don once said that because of its strength, the indestructible Bruce would make an excellent "grappling hook" for anchoring in rocks.

Thanks again,
Brian

Nomad Willy · Apr 30, 2013

Keith wrote that Don said;

"indestructible Bruce would make an excellent "grappling hook" for anchoring in rocks."

As soon as I discover I'm trying to anchor on a rocky bottom I get out the Claw.
And/but I use it at other times too. W/O a wash down hose I shy away from using anchors that are hard to clean w a brush. The Claws and the XYZ are fairly easy to clean.

I like to use all my anchors to keep in touch w how well they work in different circumstances. I have enough now so I could afford to loose a couple and still be covered. Two are basically irreplaceable though.

River Cruiser · Apr 30, 2013

Manyboats one of the great thing about boating on the river is the current cleans the rode & anchor while hauling it up.

Marin · Apr 30, 2013

Fortress Anchors said:
Don once said that because of its strength, the indestructible Bruce would make an excellent "grappling hook" for anchoring in rocks.

Brian--- Unlike Bruce (the person) I absolutely despise the Bruce anchor, at least as an anchor for small boats like ours. I guess it's just great if your boat is a North Sea oil rig. But we were let down several times by our Bruce, the last of which came within minutes of costing us the boat. After that experience we started a search for something better for a main anchor. Our Bruce now does duty propping open a door in our garage which as far as I'm concerned is the only thing this POS anchor is good for.

My own opinion is the Bruce is a great anchor when it's really big and really weighs a lot. Like tons. Where I believe it fails--- and it consistently comes out at or near the bottom in terms of holding power in countless anchoring tests--- is that while you can scale an anchor down you can't scale the bottom down. This I believe is the Bruce's undoing when it gets down to sizes like 33#, 44#, etc.

In any event we will never again have one on any boat we own and when I see one on another boat--- which is very common up here as it and the CQR are the two most popular anchors in this area--- I feel sorry for the owner.

In total contrast, the Fortress performs as advertised. It's an excellent, proven design made better by virtue of its encouraging an owner to use it rather than discouraging him. Particularly in the case of a stern anchor or any application where the anchor is going to be handled by hand.

The only negative thing I have ever read about the Fortress is that in some extreme tests the stock bent when the pull was moved off to the side and the anchor did not unset. But given that the purpose of an anchor is to keep your boat where it is, an anchor that bends its stock but still stays set and still holds the boat is far better than an anchor that breaks its stock or comes unset and then won't reset. But as I believe I said earlier in this thread, the bending stocks represented a pretty extreme situation and in normal or even harder-than-normal operations I would not think this would be an issue with a Fortress.

So a great product at a fair price with (apparently---we've never had to use it) excellent customer service after the sale. A fairly rare combination these days.

In fact we are thinking of buying a second one, this time for our 17' Arima which currently has a small but heavy Danforth type the dealer threw in when we bought the boat new in 1987. This is an anchor that, when used, is handled completely by hand.

Nsail · Apr 30, 2013

Don once said that because of its strength, the indestructible Bruce would make an excellent "grappling hook" for anchoring in rocks.

Thanks again,
Brian[/QUOTE]

I can vouch for that. I caught a big one last year!

Steve · May 1, 2013

I'm guessing that test rack was a Torquemada design?

Anchor Brian · May 1, 2013

Marin,

Sorry to hear of the bad experience with your Bruce anchor. While I have also seen several anchor tests where the Bruce has not performed well, I have spoken with many of their owners over the years who have sworn allegiance to the anchor, so..... :facepalm:

One particularly baffling anchor test I saw was done by the 40k member Swedish Cruising Association, who have been testing anchors in the clay bottoms off their coast for 20 years or so. The Bruce did poorly....but a stainless Bruce copy did well, in fact, better than the "new generation" anchors that were in this same test. Can't understand that one...

Regarding the stock, although we have fattened it up from the original Fortress models, it is still possible to bend one under a serious load.

Nsail, congratulations on that nice catch.

Steve, yes....very perceptive of you.

Nomad Willy · May 7, 2013

manyboats said:
Here is a Forfjord w mud flukes.

I thought they were owner add-ons but I've noyiced most are all the same and look professionally done so I suspect they are a factory option.

Phil Fill,
I finally found the pic of the Forfjord that had the home made mud anchor extensions.
The mud extensions in the second pic is (I believe) factory done.

Phil Fill · May 7, 2013

manyboats said:
Phil Fill,
I finally found the pic of the Forfjord that had the home made mud anchor extensions.
The mud extensions in the second pic is (I believe) factory done.

Yep that is what I plan on doing with my Forfjord! Make it a little heavier and stronger hold.

I wonder why in the test I have seen/read they do not compare the Forfjord?

In the PNW most commercial and many pleasure over 50+ ft have the Forfjord with all chain.

Thanks for the pictures, so I can show the plant the modification. Instead of my hand waving and/or rough drawings. It sort a looks like this but not quite, but sort of! Before they actually weld they have me approve because I have been know to change my mind!

Nomad Willy · May 7, 2013

I'm not a fan of the Forfjord and they must drag frequently .. especially in mud.
There are many Forfjord anchors in Craig Alaska w the extended flukes.

Most say one should have a Claw anchor heavier than recommended to get satisfactory performance. Forfjords, Dreadnoughts and Navy anchors are in the same category but more so.

There seemed to be some confusion about exactly what a Navy anchor is in the past so I'm posting a cear pic of a Navy anchor for reference.

Marin · May 7, 2013

Fortress Anchors said:
Marin,

Sorry to hear of the bad experience with your Bruce anchor. While I have also seen several anchor tests where the Bruce has not performed well, I have spoken with many of their owners over the years who have sworn allegiance to the anchor, so.....

The Bruce has a lot of fans, no question, which is one reason we bought one. We figured if almost every boat we see around us has a Bruce it must be good, right?

Most of the time it was fine. But most of our anchoring never puts the ground tackle to any sort of test. Light wind or no wind and the anchor and chain just lie there. That probably describes the vast majority of anchoring experiences in this area and on up the coast where protected anchorages are plentiful.

And the Bruce does set quickly in a variety of bottoms. It's not just a mud-and-sand anchor like the Danforth design (I realize the Danforth can set in other stuff, too, but it seems to be at its best in mud and sand).

So the Bruce was fine until we really needed it to stay put. And on those occasions, it never did.

Now if it was just us, I'd say we were doing something wrong. But it's not just us. Every boater we know personally, like the members of our club, who have Bruces have had them fail when the pulling got hard. Most have elected not to change because good anchors are expensive and as I said, 99.999 percent of the time up here a coffee can with a rock in it would work fine as an anchor, to say nothing of a 33# or 44# Bruce.

But a few people we know did change. Some of them, all boaters who anchor a lot or travel the Inside Passage in the summer, came out to our boat, took measurements of the anchor we bought to replace our Bruce to determine that it would fit their bow or pulpit, and bought one. And from what I've been told, they have not had a bad set or a drag since.

So my own theory as to the Bruce's (and Claw's) continued popularity is a) "everyone has one so it must be good," b) its well-deserved and proven reputation for setting fast in a variety of bottoms, c) boaters here don't encounter anchoring situations-- or haven't yet--- where holding power becomes the primary requirement, d) they simply don't anchor out much or ever so they got what everyone else has, and e) good anchors are expensive so they keep what they have or what came with the boat.

Nomad Willy · May 7, 2013

Probably the biggest reason people drag anchors is the bottom. The bottom is the variable that varies the most. Just like digging in our garden the sea floor offers a constantly changing bottom that is way different a very short distance away. In our garden you can hardly dig in one place and 10' north of there the ground is soft w few rocks and digs well w/o a pick.

The sea floor is formed by hydraulic forces (water) like your garden or front yard. Horizontal deposits of whatever happens to be in the clutches of the moving water makes the usual horizontally layered sedimentary deposits that we try to penetrate w our anchors. Silt or clay could be on top w rocks 3" just below or the other way around.

The most unusual bottom that we even think about is rocky. Many anchors don't do well on rocky bottoms. That was my thinking when we went to Alaska in 03 and I bought a Claw thinking it would be an OK anchor on most all bottoms. I got lucky. I was also lucky in that we didn't encounter any gales that trip either.

There are certain kinds of bottoms that NO anchor will penetrate like some clay and weed. And there are many anchors that only excel in one type of bottom. And there are some anchors that do well in most bottom types like the SARCA and Rocna. After the "sets on most bottoms" feature the Claw only seems to excel by being very user friendly mounting and deploying off the bows of boats. It also excels in price .. as in inexpensive.

If I had to limit myself to one anchor here in Puget Sound it would probably be the Manson Supreme but a big Claw could easily substitute.

dragged anchor

Senior Member

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Hospitality Officer

Senior Member

Guru

Moderator Emeritus

Senior Member

Guru

Guru

Senior Member

Guru

Guru

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Attachments

Guru

Guru

Guru

Senior Member

Attachments

Guru

Senior Member

Attachments

Guru

Attachments

Guru

Guru

Attachments

Guru

Guru

Attachments

Similar threads