DEfective Seacocks

In 2008, I decided to replace all the old '62 vintage seacocks on my Willard. Trying to use the best quality materials and desiring easier operation than the existing tapered puly Perkos, I chose GROCO brand, triangular base, ball valve type, seacocks.

Last year, I found out that Groco was recalling these valves as defective and that they were made in Aisa. Further, although Groco would supply new seacocks N/C, the old ones had to be returned first, and they would not pay for any charges associated with changing them out.

These valves are defective INTERNALLY, you can't tell from the outside and your first warning will be when they won't shut off when needed.

I will never purchase another thing from Groco, not because I expect better from a company around since clipper ship times, not because the valves were defective, but because these seacocks were not listed as imported, nor do they have any reasonable plan to warn and help customers change them out.

I sure hope they worked out their problems... I just put a bunch of them in my boat 9 months ago.

So Brooksie what are you going to replace it with?

I'm faced w that in a month or two.

JAT said:

I sure hope they worked out their problems... I just put a bunch of them in my boat 9 months ago.

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Grocos? I would contact your supplier and have them find out if that batch is defective. The defective part is the pin that runs from the habdle to the ball. So when you go to close the valve, it is rusted off where it keys into the ball. You can't tell from the outside.

manyboats said:

So Brooksie what are you going to replace it with?
I'm faced w/ that in a month or two.

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I'm not sure... In my work (hyrdaulics) we used thousands of Apolo brand valves and never had a problem. They make a seacock. I just wish I had never changed them and then given them to a yardmate. I can get replacements free from Groco (if I can believe them) but they would be imported too. Maybe I'll put in the Apolos, return the Grocos, then sell the new Groco replacements to help defray costs.

You mentioned rust damage. Are the Groco seacocks in question not all-bronze?

I believe they, Groco, use a SS ball. ALthough 316 that doesn't mean it's corrosion proof. It could be as Groco said that there was a goof up but that sounds like a lousy way to do things, leaving the boat out while awaiting replacements. Yard charges are not cheap and the vessel is out of commission.

The other mfgrs. seem to use a bronze ball, chromed, or in Perkos case a plastic ball, polymer. If that is like Marelon, a fiberglass reinforced nylon, that could be a good bet.

I still use the a mix of bronze ball valves, and through hulls so I'm behind. Two of them though are Apollos, marine ball valves and they have been good. I'm slowly changing them over.

The older taper type, Perko & Wilcox Crittendon, are gone and the older Groco with the rubber plugs are gone. They were good valves but not available for many years.

Ours are all bronze, tapered rotating shaft. Don't know the name offhand although I believe it is cast on the handle. Installed when the boat was built, 1973.

If you kept the origonals they are very easy to clean up .

Simply use fine valve grinding compound on the taper and move back and forth till the seal line is easy to see.

$3.00 of valve compound will do at least 100 sea cocks.

SERVICE-BULLETIN

MODELS: IBV, FBV, FV and TWV
GROCO's design for the imported valves series shown above specified a high-grade stainless steel valve stem. We have discovered that the stem material used in some of the valves manufactured between 2004 and 2006 may not have complied with our specifications. Valves with out-of-spec stems may not be suitable for salt-water use. Since the non-compliant silver color stems may fail when the valve is actuated we wish to have all such valves removed from service. GROCO will supply replacement valves at no charge.
WHAT YOU SHOULD DO:
Visually inspect the valve(s) on your boat. If the valve has a stainless steel stem (silver color), the valve should be replaced during the next scheduled haul-out.. Valves with a brass stem (yellow color) require no further action.
FAX GROCO 443-249-4030, ATTN: DEPT. 224 with your request for replacement valves.
Click here to send an E-mail. Provide the following information:
Your name, address, phone number and email-address
Boat manufacturer, model and hull number
Valve model(s), size(s) and quantity required
Return ship-to details
Purchase date and sales receipt copy

WHAT GROCO WILL DO:
Provide an RGA number and shipping instructions
Send no-charge replacements upon receipt of removed valves
IMPORTANT: To avoid any inconvenience, confirm with GROCO Department 224 the immediate availability of the model, size and quantity you need BEFORE removing valves and sending them to GROCO.

Brooksie said:

........... Maybe I'll put in the Apolos, return the Grocos, then sell the new Groco replacements to help defray costs.

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If you believe they are defective, wouldn't that be a bit dishonest?

It's inconvenient and expensive to keep your boat out of the water waiting for a shipment of seacocks so why not ask if you can pay for the replacements, have them shipped, and receive credit when you ship the old ones back?

"These valves are defective INTERNALLY, you can't tell from the outside and your first warning will be when they won't shut off when needed."

As psneeld pointed out you can tell from the outside by the color of the stem. I would have no problem installing current production Groco seacocks.

If you decide to go with the Apollo seacocks, be aware that their economy line are not full flow valves.

FF said:

If you kept the origonals they are very easy to clean up .
Simply use fine valve grinding compound on the taper and move back and forth till the seal line is easy to see.
$3.00 of valve compound will do at least 100 sea cocks.

Click to expand...

Yes I know, done it b/4, wish I had kept them.

If you decide to go with the Apollo seacocks, be aware that their economy line are not full flow valves.

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Noticed that...

rwidman said:

If you believe they are defective, wouldn't that be a bit dishonest?

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I was assuming that the replacements won't be defective of course.

psneeld

Service bulletin very interesting.

If however they are now going to use a brass stem as they say, I don't want them either.

I replaced all the below waterline thruhulls and seacocks with Perko.
Almost went with the Groco. If I had I would probably be faced with the same dilemma. So far so good with the Perko.

Anode said:

I replaced all the below waterline thruhulls and seacocks with Perko.
Almost went with the Groco. If I had I would probably be faced with the same dilemma. So far so good with the Perko.

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You dodged a bullet... Your stems look bronze. I could just as easily chosen Perko and avoided the problem, luck of the draw.

Brooksie, The stems of the Groco seacocks never touch water. Apollo also uses a brass stem. Because they never get wet, it doesn't seem to be an issue.

HopCar said:

Brooksie, The stems of the Groco seacocks never touch water. Apollo also uses a brass stem. Because they never get wet, it doesn't seem to be an issue.

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Explain please... With all due respect. If that were the case, there would not have been an issue with the Groco's stems. There would be no need for an Oring on the stem of any ball velve. The stems do get wet. Apollo's stems are bronze not brass; all the difference.

To me all these replacements that use a SS ball are imitations of real sea cocks.

SS ,in the open position , unmoved under water inside the housing is oxygen starved and will slowly dissolve , leaving what to seal?

Many are so cheaply built that they wont even pass the diameter of the feed pipe to them.

All the ball type seacocks I have seen have chrome plated bronze balls.

BV Series - Safety Seacock

Groco

BV Series
Full-Flow Flanged Ball-Type Safety Seacock

ri-flange base and mount hole pattern provide easy retrofit when replacing most popular brands.
Patented selectable handle rotation
Handle has square hole to accept standard ratchet, to help reach valves in hard-to-reach locations and ease actuation of difficult to operate valves.
Full pipe-size flow.
Stainless steel ball and stem.
PTFE seats and seals.
Serviceable while installed.
Drain Plug on both sides.
Base has bonding attachment

HopCar said:

Brooksie, The stems of the Groco seacocks never touch water. Apollo also uses a brass stem. Because they never get wet, it doesn't seem to be an issue.

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In the fully open and fully closed positions, the PTFE seals around the ball will keep prevent the contents from getting into the stem. It is during the transaction from open/close and close/open that contents will get around the ball, and into stem area.

See what happens to the PTFE seal on an old valve, when you forget to cock the valve open a little, when you are removing a valve that is soldered into place on a water pipe.

psneeld said:

BV Series - Safety Seacock

Groco

BV Series
Full-Flow Flanged Ball-Type Safety Seacock

ri-flange base and mount hole pattern provide easy retrofit when replacing most popular brands.
Patented selectable handle rotation
Handle has square hole to accept standard ratchet, to help reach valves in hard-to-reach locations and ease actuation of difficult to operate valves.
Full pipe-size flow.
Stainless steel ball and stem.
PTFE seats and seals.
Serviceable while installed.
Drain Plug on both sides.
Base has bonding attachment

Click to expand...

I stand corrected... This, and the fact that they claim they are now using a brass stem, proves to me Groco has totally lost its way. I'll be sure to look for valves with chrome bronze ball and bronze stem this time.

Hi Guys,
As many of you know, I own a marine supply store. I sell both Apollo and Groco seacocks. The only seacocks we've ever had a problem with are the 2-1/2" Apollos and that was many years ago. The stem was just too small and they twisted off.

I happen to know Don Gross, the owner of Groco, so I wrote him about this conversation. Following is his reply.

Dear Parks,

When we began importing some valve models from China #304 SS material was specified for the valve stem, the same material we use in our domestic production BV, SBV, and SBV-P series valves. We found that the material we specified was not consistent, hence the recall, which took place almost 10-years ago. We provided n/c replacement valves to anyone that had IBV, FBV, FV or TWV valves with stainless steel stem. We continue to offer a no-charge replacement though the warranty has long since expired. Stems in production valves were changed to brass, and we have not had a single problem since. Similarly, we have not had a problem – ever – with the SS stems we use for our domestic production valves.

I’m sorry your customer is dissatisfied with us, but fortunately he/she has choices. They may choose our domestic valves (SS ball and stem) or valves made by others. The customer will likely learn that other manufacturers also use brass stems and chrome plated balls, and some even use brass for the top nut in the valve body. We prefer SS and bronze, but the reliability of these materials from overseas sources makes brass a more reliable, and therefore safer choice. If domestic valves are selected there is an obvious cost impact, but happily the customer can choose – no need to be unhappy.

Regards,
GROCO
Don


I happen to have some very old Apollo seacocks on my boat. If I ever replace them I would probably chose the Groco FBV. They incorporate a couple of nice features that the Apollo doesn't have. I think Groco, Apollo and Perko all put out a great product and I would not be unhappy with any of their seacocks.

HopCar
Thanks for the research on my behalf.

As we all have mentioned before, SS suffers from crevice corrosion and brass from de-zincafication. So, notwithstanding Mr. Gross' comments, I'll stay away from both below the waterline and select all bronze this time which must be available from some knowledgeable manufacturer.

Fool me once.................

Brooksie I'm pretty sure the stem and top nut on the Apollo seacocks are brass as well. They are yellow not the red color of the body that we know is bronze.

You might check with Perko. They use a plastic ball which should be ok and I'm not sure what their stem is. They're nice folks, send them an email. I'll be away from my computer for a few days or I'd do it for you. I'm going to Cape Kennedy to look at rockets and get in some fishing.

Have you checked your Groco valves to see if they are part of the recall? You bought yours two years after the last recalled ones hit the market.

The reason common brass instead of bronze is used is it is easier (faster) to machine.

Free machining brass valve stems is the reason most shun common gate valves.

HopCar said:

Brooksie I'm pretty sure the stem and top nut on the Apollo seacocks are brass as well. They are yellow not the red color of the body that we know is bronze.
You might check with Perko. They use a plastic ball which should be ok and I'm not sure what their stem is. They're nice folks, send them an email. I'll be away from my computer for a few days or I'd do it for you. I'm going to Cape Kennedy to look at rockets and get in some fishing.
Have you checked your Groco valves to see if they are part of the recall? You bought yours two years after the last recalled ones hit the market.

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I did check my valves.
Apollo spec. sheet: "All bronze wetted parts" "Chrome bronze ball"
Emailed Perko: No answer
From: Buck Algonquin
Good morning,
The ball is hard chrome on brass. The stem is also brass. If you need any further information, please contact Steve Gaston (Engineering) at stevegaston@buckalgonquin.com. Thank you for the inquiry!
Best Regards,
Lee DeBaca
Sales Manager
410.643.7145 Ph
410.643.7777 Fx