Long lasting gas engines?

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mahal said:
Art,

This thread is getting weird and the more you post the less sense you make.

One more thing. Psychology 101: if you have to constantly tell people how good a captain you are and how great your boat is, chances are that you feel just the opposite.
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WOW! I remember you saying things like this over a year ago, which is one of the reasons I left the forum. Here we go again?
 
Marin said:
Art-- The "when you least expect it, expect it" mantra is certainly true. The issue is that there is so much that can theoretically go wrong (with a boat, car, plane, horse, you name it) that if one spent the time and effort to attempt to ward off the "expect it" occurance, one would never get anything else done. Or put another way, boating would be akin to being a full-time mechanic/carpenter/plumber/electrician.

Now some people like that aspect of boating (or vehicles or whatever) and that's fine. In fact that's what some people want out of boating. Witness the fellow who spends years bringing or keeping a boat up to snuff in all respects, inside and out, but never actually goes out in the boat.

We have one of these in a boathouse near us. Twelve years, this boat has been worked on (it was in great shape when we first saw it). The hull is painted, stripped, painted again, windows are installed, removed, newer windows installed, and so on. Mechanically I'm told it's perfect. And this 50' boat has never been out of its boathouse except to travel a few hundred yards to the Travelift every couple of years for a haulout. But.... that's what the owner likes to do.

So for us, while we certainly believe the "when you least expect it..." saying, it's just something we choose to live with rather than endlessly chase.

As they say, "sh*t happens." It's one reason we have two engines under the floor, the theory being that sh*t might happen to one of them but the chances of it happening to both of them at the same time are so remote as to not even be a consideration.
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I agree with you Marin... pretty much on what you say above the last paragraph (I'll get to that in a minute). However, I must say I do believe in every morning spending a few minutes (probably I average about 10 to 15 minutes at a time, so long as no real deep research or work needs to be accomplished)... opening the salon floor hatches and getting quickly close and personal with most items in the ER. Guess you could say it keeps me sane to always feel I have a handle on things. Saves $$$ in the long run. And, cause it is gas in our Tolly the every early morning ER check just might save lives in any run! I do deeply respect the explosiveness of gasoline and try to never underestimate the importance of keeping all things having to do with the gas in top condition. That said... I can be buddies with gas or diesel; admiral much prefers gas and has not a care in the world about it as that responsibility is completely differed to my shoulders - I accept that position! :D

Regarding your last paragraph: Twice in many decades I was on a boat towed to dock. A single screw diesel that had plenty of fuel aboard but got a plugged up fuel line that needed more tools and parts than was aboard. And, a twin screw Uniflite that had its gasoline gauge still reading near 1/2 full when it ran plumb out o' gas. That is when even a twin screw can get "screwed" lol :rolleyes:
 
mahal said:
Art,

This thread is getting weird and the more you post the less sense you make. So I'm out of this one.

One more thing. Psychology 101: if you have to constantly tell people how good a captain you are and how great your boat is, chances are that you feel just the opposite. So either be secure with what you have or buy a boat that will not make you defensive about owning.
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See Ya! :hello:

Drop by any time! :D

BTW: mahal - You never did mention how often you closely check-up on your boat's operational equipment... ya know... like the fuel pump and that sorta thang! :popcorn: :whistling:
 
Art said:
OK... I'll try my best! ;)

:angel::peace:
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Art, From your engine room pics it looks like the thru hulls only have one clamp on them? I have seen many boats go down from a 2 dollar clamp, Plus the sharks are larger in your ocean than in mine :hide: / Craig S
 
Craig Schreck said:
Art, From your engine room pics it looks like the thru hulls only have one clamp on them? I have seen many boats go down from a 2 dollar clamp, Plus the sharks are larger in your ocean than in mine :hide: / Craig S
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Hi Craig... They all have two! ;)

Thanks for cautionary though!! :thumb:
 
Marin said:
You guys have a lot of runaway diesels down there in CA, Art? Interesting. I've heard of them but I've never heard of one happening up here in the 14 years we've been doing this kind of boating.

What kind of odds have you observed with diesel runaways down there? One in ten starts? One in fifty? One in a hundred? Even one in a thousand would deter me from buying a diesel boat for sure.
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Marin – Not sure on answer to your last paragraph, but, how about up there in WA?

Just for S&G!

Recent occurrence (3/4/13 Enumclaw WA):

Following post-quote (Tollycraft Forum) is from a fellow seeking an engine to place in his 2660 Trophy... interesting experience, something you and I did the loop on in this thread... regarding runaway diesel...

“So a got a bug and fired up all the marine engines I have laying around. I even fired up the BMW. That was interesting. She ran away on me when she got warm. She ran up onto the rev limiter. I hit the kill switch, and nothing. I pulled the kill lever and nodda. I pulled the fuel line and the RPM's made no change! Killed the 12 volt power, and no change. I loosened the fuel lines at the injectors and she slowed down to a restful stop. That was an experience that I wish never to have again!”

And, on a better note in his next post...

“After getting all the diesel engines that I have running I have made my decisions about what to run in my Trophy. The decisions was helped out by the nice people at V12 engineering in Canida. They are the North America BMW dealer. They feel that the BMW engine I have is far to valuable to use for my application. They are going to market it were I can get a great return on my money for it. I they tell me that the D150 versions were used in Lord Nelson trawlers, and my D190 is a direct replacement for that engine. So all that being said I have found a nice Cummins 120 HP engine that should fit my application perfectly. Not to much HP and small enough to fit into the engine compartment.”
 
Art said:
I even fired up the BMW. That was interesting. She ran away on me when she got warm. She ran up onto the rev limiter.
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OK, so far so good. The engine was slowed by the rev limiter as designed. The rev limiter reduces the fuel delivery to accomplish its purpose in life.


I pulled the fuel line and the RPM's made no change!
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So the rev limiter worked as designed and reduced the fuel flow to slow the engine but removing the fuel source did not ... why is this beginning to sound a bit odd?

I loosened the fuel lines at the injectors and she slowed down to a restful stop.
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Even though there was no fuel going to the injector pump, the engine continued to run at the limiter rpm that controls rpm by limiting the fuel supply, but it slowed to a stop when the injector lines were loosened.

This story has more holes in it than a sea strainer basket.
 
Sounds like this fellow has discovered what the industry has been seeking since Rudolf Diesel did his thing in 1893-- an engine that will run on nothing.
 
I have no doubt somebody posted that to a forum Art. I'm no diesel guru by any stretch and even I made similar observations that Rick had(except the rev limiter one) before reading his follow up post.
 
RickB said:
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OK, so far so good. The engine was slowed by the rev limiter as designed. The rev limiter reduces the fuel delivery to accomplish its purpose in life.




So the rev limiter worked as designed and reduced the fuel flow to slow the engine but removing the fuel source did not ... why is this beginning to sound a bit odd?



Even though there was no fuel going to the injector pump, the engine continued to run at the limiter rpm that controls rpm by limiting the fuel supply, but it slowed to a stop when the injector lines were loosened.

This story has more holes in it than a sea strainer basket.
Click to expand...


Rick - Not at all clearly understanding a "runaway" diesel, and not knowing everything about this guys seemingly correctly stated actions during his experience. (BTW, I’ve read other posts from him and not noticed any BS): Having see one runaway diesel as a kid (late 1950's) in New England on a true fishing trawler... it has been my understanding that at least some model diesel engines will suck in from oil reservoir and keep burning it as fuel... even after most other items have been shut down. Your knowledgeable thoughts appreciated on this!!?? - Art
 
Art said:
... it has been my understanding that at least some model diesel engines will suck in from oil reservoir and keep burning it as fuel... even after most other items have been shut down.
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In which case, since the the rev limiter works by reducing fuel flow, it would have had no effect on the lube oil supply would it?

Disconnecting the injector lines would do nothing to prevent running on lube oil since they carry only metered fuel from the injection pump, which, by the description of the incident didn't have any fuel to pump anyway because the fuel supply line was disconnected.

Magic, pure friggin magic!
 
It is my perhaps incorrect understanding that in this business of a diesel running on its own lube oil, the lube oil is pulled into the combustion chambers past the rings and/or down past the valve stems and seals.

In the case of two-cycle Detroits, which is the only diesel I have really heard this "running on its lube oil" thing applied to, I don't know if the design of this engine makes it easier for lube oil to get into the combustion chambers.

Regardless, an engine that does this is doing so independently of the actual fuel metering and delivery system. The injectors play no role in it so I don't see how disconnecting the fuel line or the injector pipes would have made any difference at all if the engine was, indeed, running away on its own oil.

A stuck-open throttle could have done this, and not knowing the fuel setup I suppose it's possible the engine could have kept running on the fuel in one or more filter bowls if the fuel line that was disconnected was somewhere upstream of them. In which case assuming there was enough fuel in the filter bowls to keep the thing going for a bit, disconnecting the injectors would, indeed, cause the engine to falter and stop.
 
Marin said:
I suppose it's possible the engine could have kept running on the fuel in one or more filter bowls if the fuel line that was disconnected was somewhere upstream of them. In which case assuming there was enough fuel in the filter bowls to keep the thing going for a bit, disconnecting the injectors would, indeed, cause the engine to falter and stop.
Click to expand...

That is a good observation, however ...


I hit the kill switch, and nothing. I pulled the kill lever and nodda. I pulled the fuel line and the RPM's made no change! Killed the 12 volt power, and no change.
Click to expand...
The fuel solenoid is energized to run, cut power and you cut off fuel - the engine stops.

You pull the kill lever and you open the pump plunger cut-off port and all fuel delivery stops and the engine stops.

You kill the 12V power and the fuel solenoid is de-energized and the fuel supply to the injector pump is closed - the engine runs out of fuel and stops.

I suppose it is conceivable that a magic passage opened between the engine lube oil supply and the pump and filled it with pressurized lube oil that somehow forced its way into the pump plungers at just the right amount to keep the engine running at limiter speed despite the open fuel line and the open cut-off port. After all the world is regularly visited by sasquatches and there are angels and unicorns, right?
 
Short cruise on the Net: ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zx3qKX_Pno Uploaded on Dec 16, 2009
Joes landrover defender 200 TDI started for the first time after a years rebuild and this is what happens when the engine runs off its own oil


Run away diesel, why does it happen? Article by whunter


Hello Everyone

Run away diesel:
This is a known problem with diesels, and any diesel engine can have it happen.

What causes it?
The answer is unregulated fuel entering the combustion chamber.

Why is it dangerous?
Because; the normal way you shut down a diesel engine is by stopping the fuel from getting to the combustion chamber.

How can you stop a run away diesel?
There are three ways I know of to shut down a run away diesel:
#1. Seal the air intake and starve it, this can be impossible if the duct work is on the intake.
#2. Shove a 20 pound HALON or CO2 fire extinguisher in the intake and empty it.
#3. Run for your life and come back when it has stopped naturally.
Danger:
Never use water, it is none compressible and will break pistons and rods; this can puncture the block and throw pieces hard enough to kill you.

Diesel engine cycle theory:
To understand the problem you must understand diesel engine cycle theory; intake stroke, regulated fuel is injected, compression stroke, power stroke, and exhaust stroke vents the cylinder.

A diesel engine will burn a very wide variety of fuel, especially when at operating temperature, fuel is fuel, if it burns the engine will run, crank case oil will burn as fuel.
Diesels are called oil squeezers because the friction heat of compression causes combustion.
There is no throttle; engine acceleration is controlled by the volume of fuel injected.
A diesel will keep accelerating for as long as increasing volumes of fuel and air enter the combustion chamber, the end result is that it will reach destructive engine speeds that will break things or explosively disassemble your engine.
Even professional diesel mechanics have had diesels run away.

General causes of a run away diesel:
If the turbo seal leaks on the intake side, it feeds unregulated fuel into the combustion chamber.
If the piston rings leak on the compression stroke, the crank case oil mist gets blown through the CCV (crank case vent) and into the intake, this feeds unregulated fuel into the combustion chamber, add a restricted or dirty air filter and you have a run away diesel.
An over full crankcase oil level can cause massive unregulated fuel into the combustion chamber leading to a run away diesel.
If the intake valve guides leak and the head oil drains are clogged with sludge, it feeds increasing amounts of unregulated fuel into the combustion chamber, which can cause or contribute to a run away.
If the piston rings leak on the intake stroke, it feeds unregulated fuel into the combustion chamber.
The larger the volume of unregulated fuel going into the combustion chamber, the greater the risk of a run away diesel.

Your best defense against a runaway is:
#1. A clean intake system and air filter.
#2. Regular oil changes.
#3. Keeping a log of oil consumption.
#4. Watching for excess smoke in the exhaust.

Here is an odd example that could have wrecked the engine.
Starting problem Help, engine runaway
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Other reads: http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/humor/228435-whats-runaway-diesel.html
 
Detroits are known to runaway at 2 times.

The engine is so worn that the oil left on the cylinder walls will be enough tom operate the motor . Usually foretold for years by hard cold starting and smoke even at operating temp.

The fuel rack can be siezed by just one stuck injector , so Da Book procedure is to pull the valve cover and see all is well, before a start after a long time out of service.

Vehicle and some equipment has a shut down flap that simply blocks the intake air with the push of a button.
 
I've had many gas powered boats from out boards to in/outs & inboards. my '64 Chris Craft Constellation had twin 283 Chevs with raw water cooling. I owned this boat in the 1990s and the engines still ran fine but the transmissions not so much. I still have a 1985 FourWinns Bowrider with the 305 Chev that runs like a top. With the awesome little gas engines being built these days for automotive use, I would think it would be really cool to detune and marinize one. Add fresh water cooling, put it in a little trawler and it should run a very long time and be pretty good on fuel. It would be much lighter than a comparible diesel and much less expensive. Many older sailboats used the Atomic four and are still running. Imagine with electronic ignition, clean running fuel injection and the friction fighting advances of the new engines how sweet one of these engines would be. It would make a boat like the little Willard hard to resist I think.

Kevin
 
Kevin,
I largely agree w you but almost no one here is interested in light. It is (light) the opposite of heavy and heavy is the strongest essence of "trawler". No other element separates trawlers from the rest of the pleasure boat fleet as well. And one of the main reasons men buy trawlers is that they are more masculine. PU trucks are still selling well.

Most trawlers aren't as efficient as the full displacement boat you mentioned and and fuel efficiency seems quite important to them.

And if you put a gas engine in a trawler it would be very hard to sell. This alone should stop one from gassing their trawler. And of course there's the safety issue.

But the very low level of noise and vibration would be golden not to mention the economy of installation and maintenance.

But nobody will be interested.
 
I understand, the best use for this would be a one off boat. I envision something very efficient but not too light. Something like an express cruiser, long and fairly narrow. Sharp entry with flattish lines going back with a gradual rise/curve at the transom so that you don't drag too much water behind the boat. Maybe with a tunnel to protect the prop (Gulf Coast has lots of shallows) and keep draft shallow. Nice cockpit with walk in saloon or minor step down. Door in the transom to a nice big swim platform. Guess I'm thinking something like my old Chris Craft Constellation but longer and leaner and more efficient. This might not be the definition of a trawler but would be used like most folks use them.

Kevin
 
tallswede said:
I've had many gas powered boats from out boards to in/outs & inboards. my '64 Chris Craft Constellation had twin 283 Chevs with raw water cooling. I owned this boat in the 1990s and the engines still ran fine but the transmissions not so much. I still have a 1985 FourWinns Bowrider with the 305 Chev that runs like a top. With the awesome little gas engines being built these days for automotive use, I would think it would be really cool to detune and marinize one. Add fresh water cooling, put it in a little trawler and it should run a very long time and be pretty good on fuel. It would be much lighter than a comparible diesel and much less expensive. Many older sailboats used the Atomic four and are still running. Imagine with electronic ignition, clean running fuel injection and the friction fighting advances of the new engines how sweet one of these engines would be. It would make a boat like the little Willard hard to resist I think.

Kevin
Click to expand...

Hello Kevin

Good to have you aboard TF! If you search archives you will find that discussions of Diesel – vs – Gasoline engine-power has gone full circle many, many times.

In actuality both propulsion types are great for pleasure boat marine use and each has high and low points. Gasoline engine users (such as you and me currently) are pleased with their simplicity, affordability, and ease of use/maintenance. Diesel engine users (such as the majority of TF members) are equally as sold on their engines (maybe even more so... lol). Eric who replied just below your post is one of the most level headed TF members; he’s always a pleasure to chat with on posts and usually provides great input.

You’re lucky, or he’d probably attack ya: After 10,000 posts TF member “Marin” decided to “abandon ship”... he can get downright insulting (viciously nasty) to other members regarding gasoline engines, as well as about other items... can we spell opinionated?? That said, he did have some good input and is very intelligent! Marin and I (also, Marin and others) had numerous highly-heated go rounds. I wish him the best but glad to not any longer read his insults to members and I hope his famous conversations with his dog do him well toward further education about pleasing communication skills. (I’m confident he’s now a lurker...Don’t be surprised if Marin jumps back in upon reading this – come on Marin... I dare ya! LMAO!!). :dance:

In my 60 years, on East and West coasts, I’ve owned and/or been aboard many types of boats, pleasure and working craft. In very simplistic terms, I see it as this (many intricacies not mentioned that could change boat owner’s power-type decision):

1. If a boat is semi planing or full planing hull, shorter than 45’, below 25K lbs, and to be run between 100 to 300 hrs annually in close proximity to home port... gasoline engines are the simplest and most economical propulsion power.
2. If a boat is full displacement, semi planing or full planing hull, 45’ or longer, above 25K lbs, and to be run over 300 hrs annually with some long distances traveled... diesel engines are the simplest and most economical propulsion power.

Happy Boaten Daze! - Art :speed boat:
 
Thanks Craig,

Actually I'd like to build that one and hang my 60hp Suzuki OB on it. Being designed as an inboard the CG may be too far aft. And I think a level riding boat is the best way to a decent ride w a flat bottom.

At first I thought of building it as a low freeboard skiff by not including the raised deck and cabin. But looking at her over time I reached a point where I loved the design complete .. just the way she is. I'm sure she'd be best as an inboard ... just as Atkin designed her.
 
Thanks for the welcome Eric and don't worry, I have pretty thick skin. lol. I know this gasoline debate has been raging for quite sometime but I don't have anything against diesel either. The only problem I have is with the older smaller one lungers that are so loud and have high vibes. I've sailed in some boats that I was so glad I could shut down the engine and sail there was this huge sigh when I could. That being said, I love the sound of a smooth running 4 or 6 cyl. diesel (once the engine hatch is shut). That Atkins design is close to what I have in mind. I would like an 8.5 foot beam and 32 foot length. Enough room for a real head and galley. Modified V- going to flat bottom. I am fond of the old Chris Craft lines of the mid 60's and of down east lobster style boats. A nice hard top and opening windshields are really nice. It gets HOT down here in Texas. I have often thought of building my own custom but after restoring my old Constellation and then selling it, I'm very hesitant to do this. There are some boats out there that are close I'm sure. Maybe even one of the first fiberglass Chris Crafts. There are also many trawler styles I like too.
 
tallswede said:
I am fond of the old Chris Craft lines of the mid 60's and of down east lobster style boats. A nice hard top and opening windshields are really nice. It gets HOT down here in Texas. I have often thought of building my own custom but after restoring my old Constellation and then selling it, I'm very hesitant to do this. There are some boats out there that are close I'm sure. Maybe even one of the first fiberglass Chris Crafts. There are also many trawler styles I like too.
Click to expand...

I echo your above sentiments. I looked at everything from houseboats and trawlers to trailerable Sea Rays. While boat shopping, like a moth to a flame, I kept returning to the wooden Chris Craft hardtop express cruisers.

When I stumbled upon our 1967 Owens by accident while chasing yet another crappy so called "turn key" boat I was smitten. When I realized it was a fully refit fiberglass I was hooked , and when the owner fired up the brand new 350 V8 my wife said "pay the man".
 

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That is one good lookin' boat CP! I can see why you and the Missus were smitten.

Kevin
 
Very "classy" boat, Craig. It sure takes me back....I love the look!
 
Thanks guys. :blush:

Someone here a couple years ago told me that when walking away from your boat it has to make you look back one more time and sigh "I really don't want to leave". This boat currently has that affect on us. Some day if/when our mission changes or it no longer has that affect on us it will be time to change.

Until that time we really enjoy the option of putt putting around at 1,500 RPM with no wake and smelling the roses or opening her up to 4,000 and letting the wind blow our hair around.:hide: Either way that V8 is music to our ears.:whistling:
 
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