What would you do?

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I wouldn't leave the dock without towing insurance and I expect other boaters to be as responsible and have towing insurance. At $150 or so per year, it's one of the cheapest things you can buy for your boat.

It depends on the situation of course, but as a general rule, I would not attempt to tow another boat. It's not something I'm trained for and I don't carry the proper equipment.
 
MVNoPlans said:
There are statements of law posited in the final 2/3rds of that case that do pertain. It recites the duties of each party and the concise statement of what constitutes negligence. It also states that be it a private party or the USCG, what those standards are. Thus by analogy, there is good law in that case provided by PH. It is not necessary that it be "directly on point".
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Korpi sets out the law it applied, but does not refer to the "Good Samaritan" provisions of unidentified legislation other cite, which sound like an available defense. Why is that? I add that the concept of not "second guessing" those on the rescue boat makes a lot of sense, sometimes you just have to be there to understand.
Is the term "marine casualty" defined by the ? legislation containing it. The position of the vessel with a possibly defective but functioning engine seems outside the common meaning of the term. Notwithstanding the above,I would say the OP acted entirely correctly.
There are a variety of views on when/when not to get involved, but I think most, subject to not imperiling ourselves our crew and our vessel in some foolhardy attempt, would go to the aid of a vessel and crew in real peril when faced with the situation.
 
rwidman said:
I wouldn't leave the dock without towing insurance and I expect other boaters to be as responsible and have towing insurance. At $150 or so per year, it's one of the cheapest things you can buy for your boat.

It depends on the situation of course, but as a general rule, I would not attempt to tow another boat. It's not something I'm trained for and I don't carry the proper equipment.
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Guess it depends where you boat. ;)

I wouldn't leave the dock with towing insurance as there is no towing services nearby and I expect other boaters wouldn't have towing insurance. At $150 or so per year, it's one of most useless things you can buy for your boat.

It depends on the situation of course, but as a general rule, I would attempt to tow another boat. It's not something I'm trained for, but I do carry the proper equipment.
 
I've towed several boats over the years. I'm comfortable towing other boats and have done it because we don't have a professional towing service anywhere around here.

In the situation the OP found himself in, I'd have done pretty much what he did or at least stood by as the sailboat motored to the marina. I certainly would not say anything negative about what the OP did. I think you listened to your conscience, did what you felt you should and were ready to step up and help. Good on ya!
 
Northern Spy said:
Guess it depends where you boat. ;)

I wouldn't leave the dock with towing insurance as there is no towing services nearby and I expect other boaters wouldn't have towing insurance.
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We don't have it although a certain amount is covered by our yacht policy. I don't know any other boaters personally who have towing insurance, either. We do have a spare engine on board which tends to alleviate the need for Vessel Assist.:)
 
I'm amazed by this thread. Decline to assist or tow those in need, well here you would get sued for that. Here it is part of the code for waterways to always help and if you neglect to do so it is in deed a very bad thing.

Of course situations differ and conditions likewise but I would not even think to decline assistance if for example a tow is needed. Have done many tows in my life and propably will do many more..

I have never even heard or seen a case where the one in assistance would have sued the one who gave help. Not even in my days with the S.A.R vessels..
 
tiku said:
I have never even heard or seen a case where the one in assistance would have sued the one who gave help. Not even in my days with the S.A.R vessels..
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That's because you don't live in a country where the lawyers outnumber the ants. In the US, greed is king and any way to make a dollar is a Good Way. Don't forget, this is the country where a lady can spill-- herself-- a hot cup of coffee she just bought from McDonalds (I think it was) in her lap, sue for damages, and win.

If you knew that every time you rendered assistance to another boater (or driver or anyone) there was a better than fair chance that you would be sued for anything ranging from physical injury to "mental hardship" by the person you helped (more often than not encouraged by a lawyer who found out about the incident), would you still be inclined to give assistance without giving it a second thought?

A lot of these cases don't go anywhere but enough of them do, and enough of the "rescuees" win, that it has soured a large part of the population, including me, on rendering assistance to anyone.

So I simply won't do it anymore outside of calling the emergency services. I'm not going to end up living in a cardboard box under a freeway because some bozo we helped when his boat broke down or he fell in the water sicks a lawyer on us because "we broke his toe" while lifting him aboard our boat or were helping him rig a towline, or that he suffered "mental anguish" as a result of our actions.
 
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Thought professional mariners were only responsible for the safety of those distressed if without prospect of injury to themselves, not to salvage vessels. Otherwise, why just pick up the three sailors and let their sailboat drift away to oblivion?

img_148480_0_329f0b7fa502c7d457cab85acbfe837d.jpg
 
So true... Glad to be living at this end of the pond.

In S.A.R boats we used this paper that the skipper needed to sign (if we had the time) where he declared that he was aware that in the rescue his vessel may get damaged and he acknowledged the fact. None refused to sign it.

There is even a fee available from the officials to the one who did the rescue, so if you need to use/lose some ropes etc. you can get them reimbursed and a moderate rescue fee available for the crew, so no financial losses can occur. This of course applies when there are lives to be saved.

I am happy to boat here where if in distress, I can pretty much rely on the fact that any passer by is likely to help or stick with me as long as it takes for other help to arrive. Of course self help is the number one, always available...
 
tiku said:
I am happy to boat here where if in distress, I can pretty much rely on the fact that any passer by is likely to help or stick with me as long as it takes for other help to arrive. Of course self help is the number one, always available...
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If ya ever boat over here there are enough of us who will lend assistance that you would be all set. We don't all live in fear of the "what if" nor with a generally cynical outlook. Might as well not leave the house if that is a paramount concern. I do appreciate the OP going back to check the situation out. That was very conscientious.
 
tiku said:
In S.A.R boats we used this paper that the skipper needed to sign (if we had the time) where he declared that he was aware that in the rescue his vessel may get damaged and he acknowledged the fact. None refused to sign it.
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Well they wouldn`t say no, with seawater around their ankles. In USA someone might argue it was signed under duress, not here (well maybe), we are a lot less litigious.
We have a few Storebro 34s here, they have a good spacious interior design,lots of timber work, nice boats.
 
BruceK said:
Well they wouldn`t say no, with seawater around their ankles. In USA someone might argue it was signed under duress, not here (well maybe), we are a lot less litigious.
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In this country a "voluntary waiver" is not worth the piece of paper it's printed on. They are very easy to render invalid.
 
Marin said:
In this country a "voluntary waiver" is not worth the piece of paper it's printed on. They are very easy to render invalid.
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Much like an oral agreement, "not worth the paper it`s written on.":)
 
I gave this bloke a tow once, it was big old wooden yacht with no engine, he had sailed into a bay we frequent quite often, the basin, and the wind dropped to nothing.

He called over to me to give him a lift,not far, a couple of kilometres. So off we went, when we were about 70 meters from his mooring he slipped the tow, this boat probably would have weighed about 20+ tons, it carried on till he got to his mooring.

He lunges for the mooring line and grabs it, with the boat showing no signs of stopping he races down to the aft and slips the line over the aft cleat and the boat does this type of hand brake turn and comes to stop on a 45 degree angle.

This was a pretty crowded anchorage, and had he missed the mooring there would have been hell to pay.Last I saw of him was with beer in hand standing on the bow, lord of all he surveyed.
 
The only time I would consider refusing would be if conditions were such that there was a high chance of putting additional lives at risk. In those situations, I'd call for additional assistance and stand by if needed to take those onboard if they were at risk.
Or if someone was blind drunk but not in immediate risk. (above would apply anyway)

Law suits wouldn't even cross my mind. Perhaps I am just naive?
 
I think I have y'all beat. We were coming home from Port Aransas in the GICW. The Harvest moon regatta was in town so the potential for "dumbassery" was high. We were coming up on the entrance into Offats Bayou. There is an Eastern and Western entrance into the channel into Offats. It is local knowledge(and in the cruising guides if you aren't local) that the Western entrance is not passable. Anyway, there was a Vagabond sailboat that was pretty hard aground in the Western entrance. I asked who the owner was and somebody piped up and said, "He is the owner and I am the captain!". Of course I had to ask a paid captain???? He answered in the affirmative andI proceeded to tell him that while the markers may suggest there is a channel here...none exists. I also explained to him that if I was successful in getting him ungrounded that he needs to pull back out into the ICW and then go in the Eastern entrance.
I was successful. As we were gathering up our lines and preparing to continue, I reiterated where he needed to go to successfully get into Offats. We pulled away and when were about 1/4 mile away my wife sighs heavily and says, "You aren't gonna believe this." I look back and Capt. Dumbass is back aground in the same spot. My wife likes people less than Marin does and begs me to not go back....but I did. It wasn't for the sake of the captain...it was for the sake of the people that paid the guy. Of course I asked him all of the rhetorical questions about "Didn't I tell you such and such......"...... Anyway, pulled them off again and this time did not look back this time.
 
AusCan said:
Law suits wouldn't even cross my mind. Perhaps I am just naive?
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You are not naive. We have to live our lives and do the right things when called upon. The lawsuit concerns posted on this thread are in my considered legal opinion out of touch with legal reality, but in touch with popular notions of legal risk as garnered through media reports.
Again, as a trial lawyer, I would personally give assistance and I would also advise a paying client of mine not to "turn turtle" on living life out of fear of lawsuits.
 
I find this thread pretty eye-opening.

I've never really boated anywhere that has a towing service, so $150 or not I've never used one. I've also never NOT assisted someone who needs help. And, needless to say, I've never been sued.

Maybe it's a cultural thing? I've done all of my boating in Canada...

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
 
IslandEagle said:
Maybe it's a cultural thing? I've done all of my boating in Canada...

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
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Could be, I don't know. I keep hearing and reading that the US leads the world in the number of lawyers per capita and the number of lawsuits and the number of seemingly frivolous or greed-inspired lawsuits that are actually won.

There is another aspect of this that's not popular or politically correct these days, and that is how one feels about personal responsibility. I believe that a person is responsible for themselves and if they don't have the wherewithal to keep themselves out of trouble, that is their problem, not mine. While genuine accidents happen, it's been my observation that the vast majority of boating accidents happen because the people involved did a dumb thing, or a chain of dumb things that led to the accident. So, their problem, their job to solve it is the way I tend to look at it.

Some things do happen that aren't anyone's immediate fault. An engine breakdown is one, although I suspect many of these can be traced back to poor maintenance or operation. But for these, there is plenty of professional assistance available in most places be it government or private. The Vessel Assist guy is trying to make a living doing what he does so my attitude is to let him do what he does as opposed to my trying to do it.

In more remote areas like up the coast here where vessel assist services are not available, the decision to help or not becomes a little more difficult. But until we are ever actually placed in this position-- the chances of which are extremely remote--- our baseline decision is not to lend physical assistance of any kind outside of extreme, life-threatening situations. But there is no way to know or predict exactly what we would do until presented with the situation.

But our, or at least my, attitude is that if someone wants to take a boat out on the water they had better be prepared to take themselves out and get themselves back totally on their own including dealing with a problem should it arise. "Dealing with it" may require calling for and hiring professional assistance, but that's part of their responsibility, too.

This business of heading out willy-nilly, which an amazing number of boaters do, and then relying on "being saved" when something goes wrong is not anything I'm interested in promoting. They can fend for themselves and maybe they'll be a bit smarter and better prepared the next time they go out.
 
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I think Marin is in favor is letting recipients of the Darwin Award run their course. :):hide:
Seriously, I understand, appreciate, and share many of Marin's concerns. But, that said, I think I'd be a bit more inclined to help. I've certainly given tows to friends (in part so my powerboat friends had to deal with the embarrassment of being towed in by a sailboat). But we approach each situation as unique and make decisions depending on the circumstances. We have tons of tow boats where we are, so I'm less inclined to tow a stranger, though I'd be happy to stand by or call Boat US if they need that type of help, or even give people a ride in while the owner stays with the boat awaiting the tow. On the subject of law suits, while the number of lawyers in the US may be one issue, the other is that in most other countries you pay the defendant's fees if you sue and loose. Here, it is difficult to get that unless the suit is totally frivolous. Plus, even if you know you are protected by the Good Sam laws, that doesn't prevent being sued in the first instance and having to go through the time and expense of having the suit dismissed. That is one reason why so many civil cases settle - sometimes it is cheaper to pay up than fight and win.
Certainly not the best system, but there are worse out there.

 
If I had an abundance of local knowledge and the distressed vessel passed the smell test I would assist providing it was possible with my cruise config. If not, I would call for help for him. That area of ICW is within cell phone range of Sea Tow.

I suspect he just wanted a free tow.
 
Carolena said:
I think Marin is in favor is letting recipients of the Darwin Award run their course. :)
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Very much so. I'm really getting fed up with our increasing nanny state mentality. It is no surprise to me that people are more and more helpless in the face of relatively minor problems like power outages and storms. By extension I feel the same way about boating. The boats seem to be getting smarter and the owners seem to be getting dumber.:)
 
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marin said:
very much so. I'm really getting fed up with our increasing nanny state mentality. It is no surprise to me that people are more and more helpless in the face of relatively minor problems like power outages and storms. By extension i feel the same way about boating. The boats seem to be getting smarter and the owners seem to be getting dumber.:)
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amen!!
 
Blue Heron said:
If I had an abundance of local knowledge and the distressed vessel passed the smell test I would assist providing it was possible with my cruise config. If not, I would call for help for him. That area of ICW is within cell phone range of Sea Tow.

I suspect he just wanted a free tow.
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A long time ago I tried to call for a tow for some guys in a broken down boat. SeaTow was reluctant to come out without talking to the actual operator of the broken down boat (makes sense to me) and while I was on the radio they got the engine started and took off without a word to me.

Just like towing insurance (in my area, at least), nobody should be out in a boat without a VHF transceiver. They should call for help themselves.

Two other points:

1) It's not unknown for people to pretend to be broken down and then when someone comes to their aid, they are robbed or worse.

2) I'm not typically just riding around in circles on the water, I have a destination and a schedule (more or less). Fooling around towing someone could take two or three hours out of my day and my planned progress. As I posted above, at least in my area, it's irresponsible to be out on the water without a VHF and towing insurance. They should be able to be towed home by a professional with the proper equipment and training without intruding into my day. Tow them and they will expect it the next time. If I boated in an area where professional towing was not available, I might react differently.

If someone had a true medical emergency, that would be a different story. I would see what I could do but of course seven knots is not good for emergency transport.
 
Marin said:
Very much so. I'm really getting fed up with our increasing nanny state mentality. It is no surprise to me that people are more and more helpless in the face of relatively minor problems like power outages and storms. By extension I feel the same way about boating. The boats seem to be getting smarter and the owners seem to be getting dumber.:)
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Couldn't agree more! Although Marin refuses to meet with other TFers, I'm going to surprise him someday & just drop in on him. I'm headed to Alaska next July with a stop over in Seattle and that just might be a good time for a tour of the Boeing plant and Marin's office.:lol:
 
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