Do you really need an inverter?

IntervaleII · Apr 5, 2013

FlyWright said:
Do you mean in parallel to give you 4KW? Or are they 12V output and wired in series to give you 2KW at 24V?

Sorry, yes they are in parallel. It uses only the 2KW one and then goes to the other 2KW when the load requires it. The charging also works the same way. I decided to go with a 24 volt system instead of a 12 volt system since it gives me more storage.
I hope that answers your question.
Cheers

MVNoPlans · Apr 5, 2013

My question would be do you really need an inverter system at the expense of delaying the use of the boat that would function by just using generated power.
Your right about selling the boat to save money.....[/QUOTE]

Use the boat with the genny. Get the inverter when you get it. I have one and they are convenient, but I didn't always have it and boating was still enjoyable.

FlyWright · Apr 5, 2013

Thanks, Intervale. That clarifies it for me. TBH, I wasn't even sure if gens could be connected in series to boost the voltage.

swampu said:
My question would be do you really need an inverter system at the expense of delaying the use of the boat that would function by just using generated power.
Your right about selling the boat to save money.....

Swampu, if I was in your shoes, I'd plan the system for the inverter, allowing for it to be added at a later date. Then you can use and enjoy your boat sooner without losing the flexibility or easy installation of an inverter later.

CPseudonym · Apr 5, 2013

MVNoPlans said:
My question would be do you really need an inverter system at the expense of delaying the use of the boat that would function by just using generated power.
Your right about selling the boat to save money.....

Use the boat with the genny. Get the inverter when you get it. I have one and they are convenient, but I didn't always have it and boating was still enjoyable.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. Do not allow a piece of equipment to rule if you use the boat or not. No inverter or genny for me and we still use and enjoy the boat.

rwidman · Apr 5, 2013

FlyWright said:
Thanks, Intervale. That clarifies it for me. TBH, I wasn't even sure if gens could be connected in series to boost the voltage. .............

I don't think you can and I don't understand why you would need to connect generators in series to increase the voltage.

caltexflanc · Apr 10, 2013

SomeSailor said:
On the main AC panel where they've always been. It doesn't care where the AC comes from.

The fridge and AC outlets are fed from and through the inverter. Everything else is fed around the inverter and are only supplied with AC when the genset is on.

Are you saying the fridge and outlet circuits are on the main panel but connected directly to the inverter rather than the main buss? Put another way, where exactly does the out put cable of the inverter go to and possibly through, to get to the items serviced by the inverter? I am not going to assume anything, but by your description someone has jerry-rigged a sub-panel right on your main board.

psneeld · Apr 10, 2013

The inverter is basically a subpanel

caltexflanc · Apr 10, 2013

psneeld said:
The inverter is basically a subpanel

???

psneeld · Apr 10, 2013

Did you see his diagram?

Daddyo · Apr 10, 2013

I really like the simplicity and flexibility of our setup. Shore 1,2 and genset are selected by a single rotary switch. The 110v output of the switch is then feed through the Magnum 3100w/160amp inverter/charger and on to the AC panel. The 220v output of the switch feeds a 220v panel. If no external power is available the inverter instantly switches on. If power is available the inverter switches to charging. All breakers are feed and I can turn off/on anything I like. No need for a 110v inverter sub-panel.

Ksoulant · Apr 10, 2013

To install a Sub panel you would have to rewire. That means removing the circuits from the main panel finding a location for the Sub panel etc. etc. etc. what a pain in the a** Why not just replace the main panel 3 way selector switch with a 4 way selector Switch. Then you can select between sources, shore power, generator, inverter or off.
Simple, no rewiring, when inverter is selected just turn off the circuits (breakers) you don’t want to power up, like the high load breakers such as water heater, A/C, stove and battery charger. Wiring of the inverter is simple and cheaper because you don't have to purchase a combo inverter/charger.

SomeSailor · Apr 10, 2013

Daddyo said:
I really like the simplicity and flexibility of our setup. Shore 1,2 and genset are selected by a single rotary switch. The 110v output of the switch is then feed through the Magnum 3100w/160amp inverter/charger and on to the AC panel. The 220v output of the switch feeds a 220v panel. If no external power is available the inverter instantly switches on. If power is available the inverter switches to charging. All breakers are feed and I can turn off/on anything I like. No need for a 110v inverter sub-panel.

Bingo. Only difference in mine is the fact my inverter won't hold up the whole boat so it's wired only to the fridge outlet and two others.

Here's the diagram again:

psneeld said:
The inverter is basically a subpanel

I think of it more as an alternative source. There is no subpanel required (or desired)

psneeld · Apr 10, 2013

SomeSailor said:
Bingo. Only difference in mine is the fact my inverter won't hold up the whole boat so it's wired only to the fridge outlet and two others.

Here's the diagram again:

xxxxxx

I think of it more as an alternative source. There is no subpanel required (or desired)

I know...but for simplicity it's doing the same thing...sorta...maybe..

I think your setup is great and if I ever go to one inverter with AC passthrough...your setup is a top probability.

caltexflanc · Apr 10, 2013

SomeSailor said:
Bingo. Only difference in mine is the fact my inverter won't hold up the whole boat so it's wired only to the fridge outlet and two others.

Here's the diagram again:

I think of it more as an alternative source. There is no subpanel required (or desired)

Well, you have created a form of sub-panel :banghead:

, missing a critical element, a large breaker between the inverter and the sub-circuits. And I take it those circuits have no connection to the main power buss bar, someone broke that off?

I had the room and the motivation to do this the right way, per Magnum's directions and generally accepted practice. Not only is my system safer on one hand, it is more convenient on the other in that there is no human interaction and thus potential for human error, involved.

Plus, as we just finished doing, it is easier to add new circuits to the inverter, and you know at a glance what is inverter powered and what is not. In my case, there are two other main panels on the boat besides the one the inverter subs off of. In turn, those are fed by one big master panel that allows distributing as many as two 240/50a shore cords and /or the genset to any combo of the three. Like I said, a larger and more complex boat than most, but a virtual no-brainer to operate the AC system as testified by husband and wife who have been using it the past 5 1/2 years.

Pineapple Girl · Apr 10, 2013

psneeld said:
I know...but for simplicity it's doing the same thing...sorta...maybe..

I think your setup is great and if I ever go to one inverter with AC passthrough...your setup is a top probability.

I have the same setup and would agree it is a sub panel- at least now that I understand it better from the posts in here!!

I'm not sure why NOT doing it this way is safer or easier? If shore and generator are off, two of my circuits are powered. (If i have the inverter function on.) Period. My inverter is not sized to handle anything else. So won't be adding circuits. If I did I'd go back to the pro who wired this up for me. Had this for a year plus and love it.

caltexflanc · Apr 10, 2013

There has to be a protective device between the inverter and the circuits it feeds to protect the wiring to those circuits. You have a breaker at the dock box shore outlet, you have fuses or breaker at the shore input, you have another breaker for shore power on the master panel and another before all the individual circuits on your panel. Likewise you have a breaker at the generator out put and typically should have one on the main panel for the genset, just like for shore. What you are doing, breaking out a few circuits on the main panel somehow and effectively creating a sub panel, is fine for small installations, save the lack of a breaker on the out put of the inverter (and there should be one before the AC input to the inverter as well.)

SomeSailor · Apr 10, 2013

caltexflanc said:
Well, you have created a form of sub-panel , missing a critical element, a large breaker between the inverter and the sub-circuits.

All of the circuit protection is there. It's the same path it always has. Whether I am inverting, generating or passing though shore power, the path always contains both a main and a sub-circuit breaker.

I don't see a sub-panel, just an inline inverter.

caltexflanc said:
I had the room and the motivation to do this the right way, per Magnum's directions and generally accepted practice.

And the inclination to be so strident in the belief that your way is somehow superior?

caltexflanc said:
Not only is my system safer on one hand, it is more convenient on the other in that there is no human interaction and thus potential for human error, involved.

Mine requires no interaction. I simply switch from shore to ships power. My genset operates the same way. I see no huge inconvenience.

caltexflanc said:
Like I said, a larger and more complex boat than most, but a virtual no-brainer to operate the AC system as testified by husband and wife who have been using it the past 5 1/2 years.

Larger and more complex than most. Yeah right....

SomeSailor · Apr 10, 2013

caltexflanc said:
What you are doing, breaking out a few circuits on the main panel somehow and effectively creating a sub panel, is fine for small installations, save the lack of a breaker on the out put of the inverter (and there should be one before the AC input to the inverter as well.)

I'm glad you approve.

There IS one ahead of the inverter. It's on the output of the GenSet. There is also a breaker on the output in the panel breakers for those outlets.

I get your logic. Spend more money. Complicate the wiring. Install more breakers, etc.

I did not build this setup that I have, but is clever and works very well. What you do on your arguably "larger and more complicated than most" is another point altogether.

caltexflanc · Apr 10, 2013

SomeSailor said:
All of the circuit protection is there. It's the same path it always has. Whether I am inverting, generating or passing though shore power, the path always contains both a main and a sub-circuit breaker.

I don't see a sub-panel, just an inline inverter.

And the inclination to be so strident in the belief that your way is somehow superior?

Mine requires no interaction. I simply switch from shore to ships power. My genset operates the same way. I see no huge inconvenience.

Larger and more complex than most. Yeah right....

Re, throwing switches, I was speaking to to the other poster who said they have to flip switches to turn off non-invereter circuits in their set up.

You do have a sub panel whether you like the term or not. Your diagram doesn't show protection between the three circuits the invert powers and the inverter. Is it just missing from the drawing? Or "are you feeling lucky?"

I absolutely do feel superior about "my way" because it insures all the proper circuit protection is in place, you are not busting up panel busses, the circuits powered by the inverter are clearly identifiable, and it is flexible in a variety of ways.

It also shares with your system the nicety of not having to be "managed". An issue I have with those that use it as a third, but "pass through" source for the whole panel, is that someone has to be paying attention if one of the other sources, shore or generator, is disrupted. We do have power outages in this part of the country, and generators can stop or trip a breaker for various reasons.

Edit: PS: just looking at your diagram one more time, is there also not a breaker on your main panel for the feed to the inverter's input??

SomeSailor · Apr 10, 2013

caltexflanc said:
Re, throwing switches, I was speaking to to the other poster who said they have to flip switches to turn off non-invereter circuits in their set up.

Then perhaps you should work on that. You addressed this all to me. Be more clear.

caltexflanc said:
You do have a sub panel whether you like the term or not.

It's your term, not mine. By definition, I do not.

Definition: An electrical sub-panel, also known as a service subpanel or circuit breaker subpanel, acts as a waypoint between the main service panel and branch circuits further down the line.In essence, an electrical subpanel can be thought of as a mini service panel.

caltexflanc said:
Your diagram doesn't show protection between the three circuits the invert powers and the inverter. Is it just missing from the drawing? Or "are you feeling lucky?"

Wasn't meant to be a schematic, just a functional diagram. The SAME circuit breakers in the main panel that are used to protect the circuit (GFCI breakers) are used to protect that leg whether the voltage comes from the inverter, the genset, or shore power.

caltexflanc said:
I absolutely do feel superior about "my way"

Why yes you do...

caltexflanc said:
An issue I have with those that use it as a third, but "pass through" source for the whole panel, is that someone has to be paying attention if one of the other sources, shore or generator, is disrupted. We do have power outages in this part of the country, and generators can stop or trip a breaker for various reasons.

Then the inverter would begin to invert. I would get a beep indicating my generator has stopped running. But frankly, I think I would have noticed that already.

caltexflanc said:
just looking at your diagram one more time, is there also not a breaker on your main panel for the feed to the inverter's input??

Yes. It is on breakers from the main, from that leg and from the genset.

Ya know... This is why this forum gets the reputation it gets. I took the time to draw that up for a user. I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked into an argument from some old guy with nothing better to do with his day, but in typical fashion that's whats played out.

I did not wire this boat. I find it's layout convenient, inexpensive and uncomplicated. I don't need to change it, and I'm not taking the time to berate your installation.

Perhaps you can take some of YOUR time and draw a detailed schematic of your elaborate system and convince the rest of the folks on here that they should do it your way. I'm OK with that, but I do not feel compelled to further explain how my obviously inferior system manages to serve me so well. It just does.

MVNoPlans · Apr 10, 2013

SomeSailor said:
I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked into an argument from some old guy with nothing better to do with his day, but in typical fashion that's whats played out.

I think, according to rules set forth in another thread, you can just say "No Comment" as the trump card! Thanks for the info amigo

psneeld · Apr 10, 2013

I hope you know that I appreciate the time you took to make the diagram.

At first I didn't understand what you were talking about it as I said...a picture is worth a thousand words.

Once you posted the diagram I instantly saw what you meant and how the system was just fine.

I didn't want to butt in so I let you do a great job of explaining it.

My mantra here is to learn and teach different ways of doing things. People that say my way, it's the only way, etc..etc...well just let me say...etc...etc....

And I meant what I said about possibly copying it...

SomeSailor · Apr 10, 2013

Yeah. I let myself get drug into these.

The irony is I was scratching my head trying to figure out how the PO wired it (and why). He's deceased. But it's very clever. Makes the best out of a 2000W inverter and allows the essentials to be powered while underway by inverter... and then simply passes the genset AC through when you get where you're going.

No switches, no complicated procedures, no worries.

Thanks Dave Davis wherever you are.

swampu · Apr 10, 2013

Man, I like the diagram. Everything seems to have a breaker of some sort already installed. It would be simple to install an inline fuse if anyone was worried. Thanks for taking the time to draw it up. Paul

markpierce · Apr 11, 2013

SomeSailor said:
Bingo. Only difference in mine is the fact my inverter won't hold up the whole boat so it's wired only to the fridge outlet and two others.

Here's the diagram again:

I think of it more as an alternative source. There is no subpanel required (or desired)

Where does propulsion-engine generator fit into this scheme? Electricity confounds me.

Marin · Apr 11, 2013

markpierce said:
Where does propulsion-engine generator fit into this scheme? Electricity confounds me.

It does me, too, Mark. Especially AC. I cannot understand how energy that simply goes back and forth 60 times a second but never actually goes anywhere can do any work.

DC I undertand a little better. The positive electricicals are rushing helter skelter down the wires to the negative terminal so at least along the way they can do something useful like move a piano or light up a lightbulb.

The one rule I have managed to retain from some high school class or other is that the primary objective when dealing with electricity is to not let any smoke escape from a wire. The smoke is in there, IIRC, to direct and assist the electricicals on their journey and if it starts getting out the electricals become confused and angry and set fire to stuff.

So I think the only really important thing to remember when setting up any kind of electrical system-- in your house, on a boat, whatever--- is not to let any smoke out. If you accomplish that, I don't think the rest of it like circuit breakers and fuses and panels and sub-panels really matters.

rwidman · Apr 11, 2013

SomeSailor said:
Bingo. Only difference in mine is the fact my inverter won't hold up the whole boat so it's wired only to the fridge outlet and two others.

Here's the diagram again:

Obviously, the inverter has a built in transfer switch. Many do not and would require an external transfer switch.

Maybe I missed it in all this confusion, but where is the circuit protection for the circuits powered by the inverter?

supertramp · Apr 11, 2013

rwidman said:
Obviously, the inverter has a built in transfer switch. Many do not and would require an external transfer switch.

Maybe I missed it in all this confusion, but where is the circuit protection for the circuits powered by the inverter?

Ron the protection are in the panel with !!!! one thermoel. swich por circuit.
When i used the invertir transfer swich only the inverterconsum are load with 110 Volt.

_________________________-
Norbert

rwidman · Apr 11, 2013

supertramp said:
Ron the protection are in the panel with !!!! one thermoel. swich por circuit.
When i used the invertir transfer swich only the inverterconsum are load with 110 Volt.

_________________________-
Norbert

Is the protection for the inverter output internal to the inverter?

On my boat I cut the cable from the panel breaker to the receptacle circuit and connected it to the (120 volt AC) input of the inverter (it has a built in transfer switch).

I connected the inverter's output to an additional breaker on the electrical panel and connected the receptacle circuit to this breaker.

caltexflanc · Apr 11, 2013

You can find the diagrams for my "elaborate" system at the Magnum link I posted wto the installation manual. You can also find it in the manuals for Xantrex, and Outback. So you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with them, and indirectly, with the ABYC. There is nothing elaborate about it all, IMO, much simpler and safer than breaking a panel apart

Do you really need an inverter?

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