Long lasting gas engines?

Art said:

Back in 50’s, 60’s, into early 70’s the percentage was way high toward gas powered pleasure craft. Back then even many small to midsized working fishers had some big old gassers in em and in Maine nearly all working Lobster Boats were at that time gas powered...

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The same was true out here. Until the 60s or so (I'm guessing, I'm not positive) the typical northwest salmon troller was gas powered. One of my favorite boats in our marina, Donna, is a 36' double-ended working salmon troller built in Port Angeles in the 1940s. Her owner told me she still has her original 4-cylinder gas engine. This boat has fished SE Alaska her entire life until the last few years although her owner still keeps her up beautifully. I have no idea how often the engine has been overhauled or what kind of maintenance or repair has been needed to keep it running all these decades.

But until the 60s or thereabouts, marine diesels were big and heavy and expensive and were considered only for heavy duty working boats. The marinization of automotive diesels changed all that. The same economies of longevity, reliability, simplicity, and fuel efficiency that made them the dominant powerplant in over-the-road trucks applied to boats as well, and the marinization of those truck and agricultural engines made it economically feasible to offer the boater the same benefits the truckers and farmers were enjoying. And once that started happening, that was pretty much it for using gas engines in the upper half of the recreational boat market and the commercial market.

The safety factor is a nice benefit but I believe that with good design and conscientious operation a gas boat can be as safe as a diesel boat. I fished in a twin gas V-8 boat in Hawaii in the 70s and we sniffed the engine compartment and used the blowers and never had anything even approaching a problem. So despite the popularity of hyping safety as a big advantage of diesel I don't know that it's really that significant of a deal in reality. Lot of smaller gas powered Tollycrafts running around up here today without blowing up.

As the automotive diesels have gotten bigger and more powerful , this has benefitted the boater, too. The lobster guys who were operating gas-powered boats in the 50s and 60s can now get the same kind of speed versatility with a diesel, and have an engine that will, or should, last nearly as long as their boat and be relatively miserly with the fuel to boot. So even the performance edge that gas once had has been eclipsed by the diesel in those applications.

Gasoline engines, compared to diesels, have a lot more horsepower for the weight. So, they are most suitable for light-weight, fast boats, which are the vast majority.

A recreational trawler boat, designed to be slow, heavy (gotta have accommodations, tankage, and so on), long-ranged, and economical are the equivalent of trucks: that's where diesels shine. Besides, diesels are safer in a marine environment because explosive vapors don't naturally dissipate from a hull.

manyboats said:

Marin you paint a picture of gasoline powered boats as being cheaper, The classiest boat in the world, a Riva runabout, is powered by a gasoline engine.

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The Riva is a runabout built for speed. Not the sort of boat you're going to do the Inside Passage in with your family or the Great Loop or virtually anything else that we do with our cruisers. The people who can afford a Riva are not all that concerned about fuel efficiency. They want a high-class, go-fast boat and a gas engine is a natural for that application. A Riva is not going to appeal to it's market with a Cummins diesel in it. So it's a totally meaningless comparison.

Most pleasure boats are powered by gasoline engines because the're superior for most applications.

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The objective in building a pleasure boat is to sell it to someone, and you're not going to do that if it's too expensive for the people you want to sell it to. Gas engines are cheap, and that's the reason they are in the lower half of the recreational boat market. You can make a fast boat for Joe Public to go fishing or waterskiing in, and Joe Public can afford to buy it in large part because you put a cheap (inexpensive if you like that term better) gas engine in it instead of a $20,000 turbocharged diesel.

If gas engines were truly superior for most applications, you would see gas engines being used for most applications. But we don't. Why? Not because truckers and farmers and lobstermen think diesels are sexy, but because diesels are, in fact, superior for their kinds of applications. Which includes the sorts of boats Grand Banks and Fleming and Nordhavn are buidling. If gas was better, they'd use gas. There would be no reason not to.

Theory is all very nice but it doesn't sell boats, which is the only reason the boat builders are building boats in the first place. Grand Banks, Riva, Fleming, Nordic Tug, you name it, do not view what they are doing as a hobby.

Reality--- in this case marketing reality--- trumps armchair theory every time. If gas makes sense--- as it does in a Riva--- they use gas. If diesel makes sense--- as it does in a Grand Banks or a Nordhavn or a Maine lobsterboat--- they use diesel.

Ya know guys... Just about everything we banter on in this thread (and most other TF threads too - for that matter - lol) holds their place of correctness/importance regarding the marine world, our own feelings (financial or other wise) and the general perceptions of some others.

Long and short of it is, in the long and short of things... we are mostly, simply playing pi$$ higher games about contents we have in and on our beloved Toy Boats effectually called "Trawlers”. In reality of life chatting about the shoes we like to wear is probably just about as important.

I really like my boat... you really enjoy your boats... It’s All Good!

Side note: Our ownership choice of a gas boat is much in favor by my Admiral... she detests the smell of diesel fuel and diesel exhaust as well as disliking the deep drum of diesel motors. Can’t say I blame her. I also like the basically non odor from good running gassers and the very low noise factor. Matter of fact the synchronized hum from twin gassers is a pleasure to hear... especially on the bridge where it’s a faint whisper at just below hull speed or a bit louder chorus at 17 knots plane.

Happy Boat Daze - Art

Marin says;

"So it's a totally meaningless comparison."

That's really hogwash Marin. The Riva is a sexy and classy boat and even if a diesel w a suitable power to weight ratio were found no one would want a smelly, noisy and vibrating diesel in the Riva because there's nothing sexy about a diesel.

The comparison is spot on.

You really shouldn't be allowed to say someone's words are "totally meaningless" on this forum. The very fact that nobody'd want a diesel powered Riva makes my point VERY meaningful.

manyboats said:

Marin says;

The very fact that nobody'd want a diesel powered Riva makes my point VERY meaningful.

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Well, you just made my point. Using the Riva as an example of why cruising boats like ours should have gas engines is a meaningless comparison. You're trying to use the Riva as an example of why a heavy cruising boat like my Grand Banks should have gas engines. That's a meaningless example because the entire purpose of a Riva and the market that will buy it is nothing at all like the purpose of a Grand Banks and the market that will buy it.

Your example is like saying a Pitts Special aerobatic plane should have a piston engine on it, therefore a Boeing 777 should, too.

I declare this race/debate/discussion a dead heat...!

Peter B said:

I declare this race/debate/discussion a dead heat...!

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You're funny, Peter - - > Cool Too!!

Art said:

Side note: Our ownership choice of a gas boat is much in favor by my Admiral... she detests the smell of diesel fuel and diesel exhaust as well as disliking the deep drum of diesel motors. Can’t say I blame her. I also like the basically non odor from good running gassers and the very low noise factor. Matter of fact the synchronized hum from twin gassers is a pleasure to hear... especially on the bridge where it’s a faint whisper at just below hull speed or a bit louder chorus at 17 knots plane.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Happy Boat Daze - Art

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My generator had a fuel leak that stank-up the boat with diesel smell - it was bad but it could have been much worse had it been gasoline. I can't understand how anyone can say that they prefer the smell of gasoline over diesel. And as far as exhausts go, gasoline is very deadly. I don't let my wife sniff our fuel or exhaust so to her, it doesn't matter how our boat is powered.

It would be a bummer to not be able to move up to a diesel powered larger boat because my wife detests the smell of diesel. If I went ahead anyway, I would feel inconsiderate and will feel guilty every time we went boating or every time my wife took a sniff.

I once had a gas powered 32 footer. It was a gasser because it was what I could afford at the time and not due to preferring gas over diesel.

On the other hand, if my wife really insisted on gas, I could always repower a used Nordhavn 46 with a gas engine. The get home motor will also get swapped of course.

Can't say I prefer the odor of gasoline exhaust over diesel, but I do like the sound/gurgle of a low-revolution diesel with wet exhaust.

mahal said:

My generator had a fuel leak that stank-up the boat with diesel smell - it was bad but it could have been much worse had it been gasoline. I can't understand how anyone can say that they prefer the smell of gasoline over diesel. And as far as exhausts go, gasoline is very deadly. I don't let my wife sniff our fuel or exhaust so to her, it doesn't matter how our boat is powered.

It would be a bummer to not be able to move up to a diesel powered larger boat because my wife detests the smell of diesel. If I went ahead anyway, I would feel inconsiderate and will feel guilty every time we went boating or every time my wife took a sniff.

I once had a gas powered 32 footer. It was a gasser because it was what I could afford at the time and not due to preferring gas over diesel.

On the other hand, if my wife really insisted on gas, I could always repower a used Nordhavn 46 with a gas engine. The get home motor will also get swapped of course.

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Regarding the gen set fuel leak - All I can say is must be careful in mechanical maintenance... then it matters not the fuel used... as long as we're careful to not let the leak begin.

Correct... enclosed areas with relatively high gasoline exhaust content are deadly if breathed for long. Diesel exhaust is really bad to breath in a large volume too. However, we keep our interiors either well ventilated or securely closed. I'm not referring to smelling exhaust inside our boat... I mean the diesel exhaust smell at berth when starting, exhaust’s station wagon effect when idling down a canal (especially with tail wind), and the general lingering odor of raw diesel fuel itself; in comparison to raw gas smell which seldom lingers as gasoline fully evaporates quickly.

My Linda would be fine with it if I decided to go diesel in a boat... but she'd rather it were gas for several reasons... odor is one and considerably mellow sound reduction is another!

Keepen Momma happy keeps everybody happy, me especially!

Art,

Can you share with us how to predict a fuel leak. That would be one heck of a skill to have.

mahal said:

Art,

Can you share with us how to predict a fuel leak. That would be one heck of a skill to have.

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The skill is simply preventative maintenance

Get all portions of fuel system(s) into tip-top condition and personally check them consistently to make sure they stay that way. Then I can predict there is MUCH less chance for any fuel spill.

I'm a stickler on personally keeping all mechanical/fuel portions of my personal boats, cars, and trucks in top condition. Can’t predict the exact day a fuel spill calamity might occur, but, can predict that it may be sooner than expected if fuel system isn’t kept up in great condition – always having its condition being checked and rechecked... Over and Over Again!

To me that’s half the fun of owning power driven products.

That's condition based maintenance. Preventative maintenance would be changing things out before they failed based on prior experience and data.

Northern Spy said:

That's condition based maintenance. Preventative maintenance would be changing things out before they failed based on prior experience and data.

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Picky Picky

Damn the definitions - Full Speed... We must stay ahead of a fuel spill!!

Northern Spy said:

That's condition based maintenance. Preventative maintenance would be changing things out before they failed based on prior experience and data.

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Look out.. Someones trying to inject FACT and LOGIC into this post........................

mahal said:

Art,

Can you share with us how to predict a fuel leak. That would be one heck of a skill to have.

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Art,
mahal's point is that no matter how good your maintenance is THINGS HAPPEN. The safety aspect of gasoline engines in a boat can not be avoided. The potential for a fire or explosion can only be reduced.

I wanted this to be an objective discussion about the merits of gas engines but some people like Mark and Marin are having a love affair with the smelly one and can't seem to get their emotional feelings under control. They are just machines ... engines. Both gas and diesel engines can make some nice music but mostly they just make noise. These feelings of affection and gushing rhetoric to embrace some imagined romantic aspect of diesel engines has ruined this thread (mostly) but we've still managed to get some related/unrelated and interesting words in.

Art said:

The skill is simply preventative maintenance

Get all portions of fuel system(s) into tip-top condition and personally check them consistently to make sure they stay that way. Then I can predict there is MUCH less chance for any fuel spill.

I'm a stickler on personally keeping all mechanical/fuel portions of my personal boats, cars, and trucks in top condition. Can’t predict the exact day a fuel spill calamity might occur, but, can predict that it may be sooner than expected if fuel system isn’t kept up in great condition – always having its condition being checked and rechecked... Over and Over Again!

To me that’s half the fun of owning power driven products.

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Your claim that you are able to "not let the leak begin" with your good maintenance routine is far fetched and downright impossible. The leak that I referred to was a fuel seepage out of a good looking mechanical fuel pump. How in the hell would would you have seen that coming? Oh I know, you change gaskets or pumps regularly before a failure.

Anybody else notice how good Art is getting at pissing people off?

He can do it even if he's not trying to, or, when he writes something that's not even offensive!

Must be some sort of an Art form!

HaHa That's good.

Art's never pissed me off .... well I do remember having a "disagreement" and I was a bit frustrated but not pissed off. He's just too nice a guy.

mahal said:

Your claim that you are able to "not let the leak begin" with your good maintenance routine is far fetched and downright impossible. The leak that I referred to was a fuel seepage out of a good looking mechanical fuel pump. How in the hell would would you have seen that coming? Oh I know, you change gaskets or pumps regularly before a failure.

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Well... that's one way to help avoid it! Nothing is fool proof – but – careful attention to everything aboard a boat can really help!

Let me ask you... Captain!... How often do you check all of your boat's operational equipment??

IMO: Captain of a pleasure boat should check systems daily... like I do whenever aboard our boat. As a general rule I open both ER hatches in early morn (I automatically wake at 5:30 +/-, while Admiral and guests sleep in separate staterooms behind closed doors). I step into ER for a survey of all its under salon deck components. When newly arriving to boat at dock - first thing I do, even before any electricity is hooked up or switches turned on - with portable floodlight in hand - I open one or both ER hatch for sniff test and do a quick visual check. Constant surveillance is the only way I know of to help avert disasters or even annoying break downs. That includes gas or diesel powered cruisers...

Two years ago, while closely checking our mechanical fuel pump on 7.5 KW Kohler gen set, by pulling my finger under the pump (something I do each visit into ER) I noted slight moisture. Smelling my finger I immediately realized it was gasoline. Even though the amount leaking from pump's slowly rupturing diaphragm created no noticeable gas fume odor in ER - I caught it early-on due to my consistent and thorough surveillance on all operational portions of the boat. Next visit I had new pump in hand and onto gen set it went. Also, on both engines' fuel pumps there are "sight bowls"... if any moisture gets in the mechanical pump needs to quickly be replaced with new. That means that although the pump has a secondary diaphragm to keep engine running the primary diaphragm is beginning to rupture. Those simple to accomplish check-up items are just a sample of what I do every early morning while aboard. Then, of course, there's fluid level checks on all units, close look at and a feel if necessary for through hulls, linkage attachment visuals and tightening/adjustment if needed, fuel line and fitting checks, checks on all cooling hoses, bit of lubricant spray onto moving parts as may be required. Heck, every spring I even check and tighten every available nut, screw, and bolt in the entire ER. Far as I’m concerned I can never be too careful in taking real good care of all portions. I think from what I just said you can get the picture of how serious I am in helping to avert problems, can’t you?? BTW: These daily early morn visits while aboard boat give me much joy, feeling of accomplishment, feeling of safety and constant visual picture of what’s really going on in my boat’s below deck areas, specifically in the large and well lit ER. Daily check-up throughout ER on a visit may last for minutes or if circumstances warrant for long as it takes! Knowing a boats operational tenor at every moment is one of a Captains highest responsibilities. Any “Captain” that thinks a boat is similar to a car where you just start and go for days/weeks/months on end without constantly consistant checking all boat components is begging for eventual problems and potentially life threatening calamity. At every “correct season” (i.e. spring, summer, fall – warm water) cruise I also spend fun-time swimming under our boat with mask, fins, flashlight, and applicable brushes/scrappers to clean all UW drive gear, check/clean all water draw holes/grates, brush schmeg off bottom (we’re in fresh water, little to no seaweed or other growths), and clean the surface of or replace the anodes.

One item that I, as Captain, demand to have nearly instantly available for me on any of my boats: Easy, quick access to standing head room with lots of light and plenty of elbow room to get around in the ER compartment. Otherwise I would not be able to keep up my all important daily ER equipment survey. In other words... I refuse to purchase a boat where you must pull away the steps to a down galley and/or forward stateroom so you can crawl on hands and knees through a small opening to arrive into an ER cave where you can hardly kneel, constantly hit your head, and have difficulty even turning around – much less peering over the other side of the engines to see anything or to work on it. And... if the engines are hot and something makes it imperative that you go into that cave – well – good luck, you’re screwed!!

Now, understand, we don't keep our boat as a show piece for others to ooooh and ahhhh over, we simply keep her in damn good over all condition for us to use and enjoy while playing on it. That's what pleasure boating's supposed to be all a bout - as far as we're concerned. All in all our Tollycraft tri cabin currently fits all my Admiral’s and my desires/needs!

PS: Last pict is crew for that weekend enjoying Morning Joe and saluting the boating-fun day ahead... not long after I closed ER hatches from my early morning check-up!

Nsail said:

Anybody else notice how good Art is getting at pissing people off?

He can do it even if he's not trying to, or, when he writes something that's not even offensive!

Must be some sort of an Art form!

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I always say: It's better to be pissed off than pissed on... as some in TF try to do!

manyboats said:

HaHa That's good.

Art's never pissed me off .... well I do remember having a "disagreement" and I was a bit frustrated but not pissed off. He's just too nice a guy.

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Thank you Eric - Right back at cha!

In NY, back when, every time I knocked someone out in boxing ring or a street fight or pined my opponent in HS Greco wrestling... they'd call me a "Pissa" to deal with... guess it stuck! LOL

manyboats said:

I wanted this to be an objective discussion about the merits of gas engines but some people like Mark and Marin are having a love affair with the smelly one and can't seem to get their emotional feelings under control. ...

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Eric, that's the nicest thing anyone has said to me today.

Art said:

Let me ask you... Captain!... How often do you check all of your boat's operational equipment??

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Valid question and I think it exposes a reality that doesn't really get acknowledged, particularly on boating forums like this where most everyone is trying to paint a picture of what great boaters we all are.

We hear a lot of people saying "I check this every time and I change that out every x-hours or years no matter what" and so on. And for some people it's probably true.

But I would be willing to bet that 90 percent of boaters never check anything other than the basics--- oil levels, coolant levels, nothing obviously leaking into the drip pans or bilge---- and react only when something goes wrong.

Virtually every boater I know well enough to know how they operate their boats is this way including us. Before every trip--- but not before every engine startup--- I check engine and transmission oil, coolant, give a cursory glance around to make sure everything looks okay, and maybe once in a while I'll give a tug on the drive belts on the fronts of the engines to make sure they're tight.

Every now and then I will do an engine room check while we're underway but I don't do it regularly. On short weekend trips I rarely do it at all. On multi-day trips I'll usually think to do it every couple of days.

And that's it, folks. I don't check hose connections and inspect pump gaskets and hose clamps and examine all the wiring and sensor connections and so on. The only concession I make to a detailed inspection is to open the petcock on top of the FL120s exhaust manifold before (almost) every cold start to make sure there is no air trapped in the manifold because I know if there is it is bye-bye manifold and they are not obtainable anymore other than off another engine.

Other than that, we run our engines fat, dumb, and happy until something happens, at which point we deal with it. Fortunately, there have been very, very few of those "something happens" moments. In fact, in terms of something actually going wrong with an engine, there have been only three instances in 14 years: a coolant pump that began to leak on the delivery trip from Tacoma to Bellingham after the boat came off the truck from California in 1998; a pinhole that developed a year later in a component of the worn-out exhaust system that was on the boat when we bought it; and many years later a pinhole in one of the fuel injection pipes.

And many of the boaters I know don't even do as much as I do. Some of them--- and these are good, very experienced, careful boaters who've done things like go to SE Alaska and stuff--- will go an entire season with little more than a fluid check "every now and then." Some of them never do an underway check, if for no other reason than they have to pull up half the cabin floor to access the engine space.

I'm not saying this is all okay to do, but I think it's reality. And the other reality is that it works. The engines in the boats of the people we know are almost trouble-free, and have been for years and years and years. All these people, including us, do service their engines (or have them serviced) at the proper intervals. Oil, filters, coolant, etc. So the engines are not ignored in that respect.

But in response to Art's question, I don't know anybody, including us, who ever checks all their boat's operational equipment. It works, it breaks, then we fix it. And I believe that is true for the vast majority of boaters.

Which, I suppose, could be used as an illustration of just how reliable and trouble-free the diesels in boats like ours really are.

Here I was beginning to believe I was the only one that anal about my boats mechanical and safety condition. Thanks Art you have me feeling better about my compulsive behavior.

[QUOTE = Marin]Which, I suppose, could be used as an illustration of just how reliable and trouble-free the diesels in boats like ours really are.[QUOTE

CPseudonym said:

Here I was beginning to believe I was the only one that anal about my boats mechanical and safety condition. Thanks Art you have me feeling better about my compulsive behavior.

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Two things I see here Craig and Marin:

1. Craig, to be truthful, the reason you and I are (need to be) so damn anal on constant check-ups IS because we B gassers... least that's how I see it. Careful is as careful does around any sort of explosives... specially around our efficient, low cost, low maintenance, sweet smellen, mellow/quiet sounding, lightweight, easy to repair, parts available bout anywhere, mechanics galore, and great for making our size boats perform at some quick planing speeds... gasoline engines - I just had to get all that in here!!

2. Marin, to be truthful, "when you least expect it - expect it! And, nice pro-diesel ending to your long post! My pro gas in in #1 above - LOL

BTW: Thank you both for helping ta make me feel so damn good bout pleasure botten!! I can only hope ta return the favor to you guys! You’re obviously great additions to the pleasure boating community! YeeHaw!

Art-- The "when you least expect it, expect it" mantra is certainly true. The issue is that there is so much that can theoretically go wrong (with a boat, car, plane, horse, you name it) that if one spent the time and effort to attempt to ward off the "expect it" occurance, one would never get anything else done. Or put another way, boating would be akin to being a full-time mechanic/carpenter/plumber/electrician.

Now some people like that aspect of boating (or vehicles or whatever) and that's fine. In fact that's what some people want out of boating. Witness the fellow who spends years bringing or keeping a boat up to snuff in all respects, inside and out, but never actually goes out in the boat.

We have one of these in a boathouse near us. Twelve years, this boat has been worked on (it was in great shape when we first saw it). The hull is painted, stripped, painted again, windows are installed, removed, newer windows installed, and so on. Mechanically I'm told it's perfect. And this 50' boat has never been out of its boathouse except to travel a few hundred yards to the Travelift every couple of years for a haulout. But.... that's what the owner likes to do.

So for us, while we certainly believe the "when you least expect it..." saying, it's just something we choose to live with rather than endlessly chase.

As they say, "sh*t happens." It's one reason we have two engines under the floor, the theory being that sh*t might happen to one of them but the chances of it happening to both of them at the same time are so remote as to not even be a consideration.

Art,

This thread is getting weird and the more you post the less sense you make. So I'm out of this one.

One more thing. Psychology 101: if you have to constantly tell people how good a captain you are and how great your boat is, chances are that you feel just the opposite. So either be secure with what you have or buy a boat that will not make you defensive about owning.

mahal said:

How in the hell would would you have seen that coming?

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One way you could see it is...


Floscan Instrument Co. Inc.