Long lasting gas engines?

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"Hell's Angels image they'd have gone out of business long ago."

Folks that take a look will notice Brando and flicks like The Wild Ones , were NEVER on Harleys!!

Mostly Triumphs , as they were more reliable and not 700 lbs each.

"Wouldn't own a Harley. World's crappiest, over-priced motorcyle."

There is one area where we agree 1000%!

Don't the Chinese have a HD copy?

Or since its a 1913 design with no patent infringement , they wont bother?
 
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Yank'in chains????

Don't think so Peter. He's been consistent on this one for at least 6 years.

FF,
Yes they did have HD copy. It was called a Ricker or something like that. Wasn't popular for the same reasons the HD wasn't popular ...... at that time. In the 60s we all thought it was just a matter of time until HD went broke. At that time people bought motorcycles for what they could do. Like ride smooth, handle well, go fast and brake fast. People gave up on reality and function and bought into "cool". Still buy'in on the dumb. I don't even know if a "standard" and proper motorcycle exists anymore.
 
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Eric, FF, and Art, when are you guys going to realise Marin is having a ball yanking your chains....

Psychology 101 teaches: “After strenuous attempts to reach an acceptable range of cooperative thought transfer in a debate; when it becomes clear that one person has no chance of enabling themselves to correctly process thought levels regarding the debatable items then those that do correctly process those thought levels should end the debate by stating “No Comment”! :lol: :lol: :rofl: :rofl:
 
Yea Art and then we'd immediately start another debate.

I don't see a "no comment" yet so what are we debating about? Noise?
 
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Yea Art and then we'd immediately start another debate.

I don't see a "no comment" yet so what are we debating about? Noise?

Eric

For the debating participants and as well as the viewing audience much can be learned, i.e. brought to light in a topic-productive, open minded, learning-slanted debate - on any topic. Open minded debaters should always be ready to modify their thoughts on subject portions as the debate ensues. Even to the point of sometimes changing their stance on portions of a subject in the debate. To “win” a debate is not always best accomplished by trying to simply decimate the other debaters’ input but rather winning can often be accomplished by molding their input to a shape that makes your input stand out more at end of debate. Debate winners are similar to vote winners. The debate winner seldom if ever wins by 100%... winning by above 50% is usually the goal! In TF, our “debates” are a little different in that we are not actually trying to win anything, but rather we debate simply to help display experiences that can shed added light on one or more boating circumstance. In TF I’d label them more as “productive discussions” than truly being “hard-core debates”... at least that is for some of us who try to always keep an open mind on topic-productive learning experiences.

Although it is often fun and informative to debate with you and several others on TF, the "No Comment" comment I made was particularly regarding one forum contributor that has a mite too tall impression of his own wisdom... to the point of way too often closed eyes and ears regarding other persons' well learned and written about experiences.

Can you guess to whom I may be referring?? LOL

Regarding that person, although at times he too posts good info... too often if not agreeing with what he states or how he feels many debates result in others (who also have their own good input) needing to eventually end their participation in the debate with the feeling of "No Comment"! Imagine what would happen if this person could open mindedly contribute to debates about anything, such as fuels used, engine types... and the like... while not trying to prove “his” point by winning in debates via openly trying to intimidate others with sarcasms or innuendos or flat out insults. This fellow seems pretty smart, is obviously a good writer, and I believe could even become a good/fun debater. Heard tell he has a genius dog that he speaks with for advice... that animal’s intelligence in often stated by him during an attempted humiliating put down toward others. I don’t think the dog would like that if it was ever accounted to him. I’ve not noticed anyone on TF try to put this person down. But rather, we simply try to lift him up so he can eventually reach (see) beyond his incessant attitude of “I’m Right/Your’re Wrong – Period”. Guess he currently requires that feeling to sleep well. Maybe it stems from a childhood circumstance??? Hope he can break through!

Happy Boating Daze! - Art :speed boat:
 
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Sometimes it feels like some people must have the last word.
 
All one has to do is go to the annual SD Harley roundup to understand the reality, perception and mystique of Harleys. As Marin would say and would be the SD response, "I really don't care about your ill founded opinion." Or go to a Trawler Fest filled with the "wrong" boats, or an airshow with antique death at every turn, or a ski hill where the latest in skiis and gear can be observed.

Harleys and the life style experience they offer are neat, fun and every bit as worthwhile to their followers as Bayliners, GBs and Willards are to their's. BTW, Brando and group were sissy riders so indeed needed lighter bikes, such as the Triumph Bonny I rode. Harleys were too big and mean for me and them.
 
Art; said:
Imagine what would happen if this person could open mindedly contribute to debates about anything, such as fuels used, engine types... and the like...
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When you post something that is worth bothering taking the time to debate I will debate it. That hasn't happened yet.:)

I don't debate about stuff for which the answer is obvious or irrelevant.
 
When you post something that is worth bothering taking the time to debate I will debate it. That hasn't happened yet.:)

I don't debate about stuff for which the answer is obvious or irrelevant.

"... incessant attitude of “I’m Right/Your’re Wrong – Period”.

Marin provides proof in the putting! :facepalm: :lol:
 
I'm sure everybody thinks they know of whom you speak Art but what is wrong w having the last word? Some people like you, Marin and I have lots of words. It's like having lots of ammunition. You're bound to get in the last shot if you've got much more ammo and having the last word here is mostly because you've got a lot to say. But ther'e are people that NEED to have the last word and need to "win" and do so (in their mind) buy having the last say as if the others all caved into their idea. I've found myself repeating myself and not liking myself for it and now I try hard not to go there. I remember ending an argument/debate w Marin taking the "no comment" (in other words) and he readily agreed. He obviously agreed. If a point has been made why make it again? And then there's another similar way of looking at it and that is to take stock of how many times have you made point A and how many times has the other guy made point B. Then if you not only get in the greatest number of statements and get in the last word too ..... You're da man by this/these methods and standards.

In the past I did care about the winning but now I don't have any points to tally as most everybody knows me well enough and I feel free to say mostly whatever I want and think. My age gives me that in the real world too. And here on TF I do think there is a lot less ego driven conversation and personal attacks/threats than there was 4 years ago.
 
"... incessant attitude of “I’m Right/Your’re Wrong – Period”.

Marin provides proof in the putting! :facepalm: :lol:

That's because I AM right and you ARE wrong. Shoot, even my dog knows that, Art. Get with the program.:)
 
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Art I agree .... Marin ... YOU STEPPED IN IT.

And at the moment I've got in the last word!
 
That's because I AM right and you ARE wrong. Shoot, even my dog knows that, Art. Get with the program.:)

"Heard tell he has a genius dog that he speaks with for advice... "

Woof Woof...:dance: :D :thumb:
 
Art I agree .... Marin ... YOU STEPPED IN IT.

And at the moment I've got in the last word!

The absolute worst thing a person can be in my book is boring. Better wrong than boring. The couple of people who have been on this forum who I've truly respected are anything but boring. Plus they've been right most of the time, too. Wonder if there's a connection between "not boring" and "right most of the time" .......?
 
Marin is correct. Be an "A" or be an "F". Everything in between is a yawn in the entertainment world.
Peace, out, Boyscout(s)
No Comment.
 
OK, now that we’re done with that stuff...

Let’s get back to manyboats / Eric’s OP topic: “Long lasting gas engines”

Can any type diesel (engine brought to full running condition, not including removal or installation) be rebuilt/replaced within near-$$-range of the following average cost for a gas engine:

1. Full rebuild around $1.2k in parts – Depending on ER’s location and if engine block needs boring, this effort can be accomplished by hoist-support of engine inside boat. Been there done that!
2. Short block new (factory original, crated) around $2.5K
3. Long block new (factory original, crated) around $3.5K

Please provide similar levels of cost for various types of diesel.

Thanks, Art
 
We replace long block 454's in our assistance towing vessels...the last price for a Marine Power carbureted 454 complete marine package was over $10,000....rebuilt Cat 3208's go for well under that.

Not saying that gas can't be done cheaper but this discussion has really shown a lot of misconceptions between gas/diesel and the reason or not to repower with diesel.
 
We replace long block 454's in our assistance towing vessels...the last price for a Marine Power carbureted 454 complete marine package was over $10,000....rebuilt Cat 3208's go for well under that.

Not saying that gas can't be done cheaper but this discussion has really shown a lot of misconceptions between gas/diesel and the reason or not to repower with diesel.

WOW - Over $10k for a 454 motor! I’m amazed... That includes all new periphery motor equipment and the installation, or just long block engine, i.e. block and heads?

$10K number does surprise me from what I previously heard, read, learned. Also, I should have mentioned in my post # 76 that I was referring to small block 5.7L engine. Just looked into a few links for gas engine quotes... these quotes are for std rotation engines, reverse rotation was approx $500 and $900 extra in reman and new engines respectively.

Also... I had no idea there were really well remanufactured diesel engines (Cat 3208’s) available for under $10K. Live and learn! What is the hp of rating on Cat 3208?

Long block 5.7L engines:

Remanufactured – GM 5.7L 250 hp $1695

Brand new – GM 5.7L 260 hp $2,499


Long block 7.4L engines:

Remanufactured – GM 7.4L 310 hp $2,495

Brand new – GM 7.4L 330 hp $6,299


Long block 8.1L engines:

Remanufactured – GM 8.1L 410 hp $4,495

Brand new – GM 8.1L 420 hp $7,999
 
There is also a reman program for Cummins engines. Several people have suggested this to us as a potential candidate if we decide to proceed with our notion of repowering our GB. We have not looked into prices yet but have been told the cost is "very reasonable."
 
I was the OP and said nothing about repowering w diesel or ?

The thread I envisioned was just to kick around gas engines in boats and perhaps how they'd measure up in a trawler. I really think if engines were chosen objectively and gasoline was't explosive most trawlers would have gas engines. Wanted to hear what others had for out of the box ideas for gas power. Kind of a "hmmmmm never thought about that but now that you mention it ...... ". Food for interesting thought.



Re Art's post the short block GM 350 is so cheap who would care how long it lasted. $4K every 10 years? Cheap compared to diesel.
 
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There are more things that have to go right for a gasoline engine to start running than wrong things that have to happen for a diesel engine to stop running. :D

Even more so if it is a mechanical diesel.
 
The thread I envisioned was just to kick around gas engines in boats and perhaps how they'd measure up in a trawler. I really think if engines were chosen objectively and gasoline was't explosive most trawlers would have gas engines.

I agree and I believe that they would last a good long time. It doesn't seem as if there are many (or any) modern gas engines that are big slow turners like engines of old that were placed in the heavy cruisers.
 
There are more things that have to go right for a gasoline engine to start running than wrong things that have to happen for a diesel engine to stop running. :D

Even more so if it is a mechanical diesel.

Well Gilligan, my young boaten buddy... what NS mentions certainly is true! Guess that’s one good reason why we’ve seen runaway diesels but no runaway gassers! Can’t hardly wait till we get off this island so we get a chance to hear the roar of a runaway diesel again!
 
Guess that’s one good reason why we’ve seen runaway diesels but no runaway gassers

You guys have a lot of runaway diesels down there in CA, Art? Interesting. I've heard of them but I've never heard of one happening up here in the 14 years we've been doing this kind of boating.

Well, that's not true. There was a fairly dramatic YouTube video a few years ago of a tug and barge going through the Skookumchuck Narrows when the current was still running and the barge got slewed around and pulled the tug over. On the sound track you can hear the Detroit running away after the tug was upside down. But I would say that's a not a typical event for a recreational boater....

So what is it about your area that you think makes diesels so prone to running away there? That would sure make me think twice about a diesel boat, too, if runaways were as common here as the apparently are there. (See, I'm agreeing wth you:)).

What kind of odds have you observed with diesel runaways down there? One in ten starts? One in fifty? One in a hundred? Even one in a thousand would deter me from buying a diesel boat for sure.
 
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I don't understand what petty slamming of one propulsion system over another has to do with the long lasting gas engines title of this thread. I own a gasser currently and if I upgrade to a larger boat in the future it will most likely be diesel. Nothing wrong with either power choice IMO. 35 feet an under has more gas engines available than 35 foot and longer, that's just market reality.
 
I may be wrong, but I very definitely doubt it. :rolleyes:;)
 
Nothing wrong with either power choice IMO. 35 feet an under has more gas engines available than 35 foot and longer, that's just market reality.

Well, you posed and answered the question right there in the most sensible way I've seen yet here.

There IS nothing wrong with gas as a marine powerplant as long as you define what it's good for. Which is, as you say, smaller boats. Or cheaper boats or mass market boats. Gas engines are a really cheap way to power a boat, which means you can bring that boat to market for a whole lot less than you can a boat powered with diesels. The classic albeit overused example of this is Bayliner. The fact gas engines have relatively short lives compared to a diesel is fairly irrelevant for this market because the kinds of boats they're in don't get used all that much, relatively speaking. And if the boat is designed so the engines are under a cockpit where they can be easily swapped out, so much the better.

When you start talking about bigger, heavier boats, boats that represent a considerable investment and so will hopefully have a long life-- 30, 40, or more years---, or boats that are going to run long distances or short distances a whole lot of times for a whole lot of years, then diesels are the best choice, which is why that end of the market--- and the commercial market--- uses diesels virtually exclusively. They woudn't do this if it didn't make economic sense to the buyers and operators.

So both types of engines have their place. But what's being claimed by some here is that gas engines are an ideal powerplant for the upper half of the market. Which, despite their cheap initial cost and cheap replacement cost, does not hold true in my opinon. If it was, Grand Banks and Nordhavn and Fleming and the commercial lobsterboat guys and so on would all be using gas engines.

Engines, other than outboards, are not plug and play devices. Getting the engines in and out of a boat like ours, for example-- or a commercial fishboat---- is a major proposition. Doesn't matter how cheap the engine itself is, the effort to take the old ones out, put the new ones in, and then fix all the stuff you had to take apart or break to get the engines out and in is considerable and expensive. For a boat with an anticipated service life of 30, 40, 50 years or more, it makes no sense to have to undergo that process every few years depending on how much the boat is used.

It makes much more sense with a boat like ours to put one or two engines in the thing when it's built that have a good chance of lasting the life of the boat assuming proper operation and servicing. And the only way to accomplish that is by using a diesel. Which is why companies like American Diesel and Kong and Halverson and others started doing just that back in the 60s and early 70s.

The two different categories of boats are very much apples and oranges, and so need apples and oranges powerplants to make economic sense. Smaller, simpler boat, want to appeal to as large a recreational market as possible, wouldn't make sense to stick anything other than a cheap gas engine in it. Bigger boat, major investment, more complex design, needs to be really cost-effective in the case of a commercial application, it doesn't make sense to stick anything other than a diesel in it.

That's my take on it, anyway.
 
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Marin, that's a sensible essay.

Yes, the Coot would need to be "gutted" (as in the hull cut open) to replace its engine. Don't want a short-lived power plant here, thank you.
 
You guys have a lot of runaway diesels down there in CA, Art? Interesting. I've heard of them but I've never heard of one happening up here in the 14 years we've been doing this kind of boating.

Well, that's not true. There was a fairly dramatic YouTube video a few years ago of a tug and barge going through the Skookumchuck Narrows when the current was still running and the barge got slewed around and pulled the tug over. On the sound track you can hear the Detroit running away after the tug was upside down. But I would say that's a not a typical event for a recreational boater....

So what is it about your area that you think makes diesels so prone to running away there? That would sure make me think twice about a diesel boat, too, if runaways were as common here as the apparently are there. (See, I'm agreeing wth you:)).

What kind of odds have you observed with diesel runaways down there? One in ten starts? One in fifty? One in a hundred? Even one in a thousand would deter me from buying a diesel boat for sure.

Aww shucks Marin... gad dang nice ta hear from ya on this topic; specially being so greeable and all that stuff! I’ll try to reciprocate best as can! :D

However, I must say... I've only seen one runaway diesel in a boat in my life and that was in NY while I was a young kid. Twas a real old wooden fishing trawler (ya know the kind with nets, booms, riggers and all that ol’ fishen type stuff) tied alongside a pier in Freeport LI. Lots of smoke comming out of the center of that boat. Many fishermen running around like crazy with fire extinguishers, hoses, and the like. Noise was really screaming and they somehow got it shut down. That was in the late 1950's; boat and engine might have been from the 40’s, 30’s, 20’s??? Don't imagine with newer diesels there's much chance of that happening again, but, don't know. From what I’ve read long time ago once they go past a certain point of “roaring compression” that even if fuel is shut off they will suck oil from reservoir and keep flashing on that. Do know that I’ve seen video of runaway diesels (I think they were all older ones). And, I’ve seen video of blown-up/burned-down gasoline boats as well as seen boats (after the fire - not knowing the fuel used) that burned for one or another reason... in water or on the hard. Never saw one gasser explosion happen in person. Also seen video of diesel boats burn to water line, not sure what began their fires.

I was being VERY tongue-in-cheek with Northern Spy and just poken some fun at his fairly recent Gilligan avatar. Between that one and the engineer screaming on his last avatar in my opinion NS should get the award for “most likely to make you smile” avatar on TF. I honestly don’t know which one I like better... both make me smile each time I come across his posts.

Instances of runaway diesel and/or blown up gasoline boats I believe closely relates to the maintenance schedule adhered to in both cases. Me, I’m an early morn maintenance nut on all mechanical, electrical, fuel, gauge, and other boat parts... that’s cause my eyes normally don’t stay closed much past 5 AM. So, I amuse myself checken on things and reading books while Linda sleeps till bout 7:30ish. That right there is one of the reasons I’m not flummoxed or nervous at all around a gasoline powered boat, and, of course for decades when young I was around both gas and diesel powered boats. Back in 50’s, 60’s, into early 70’s the percentage was way high toward gas powered pleasure craft. Back then even many small to midsized working fishers had some big old gassers in em and in Maine nearly all working Lobster Boats were at that time gas powered... some with pumped up hot rod car engines the lobster men fashioned themselves for marine purposes.
 
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Marin you paint a picture of gasoline powered boats as being cheaper, smaller and made in great numbers.

And if you hadn't noticed less expensive (cheaper) is a positive yet you imply it's a negative.

A very heavy engine in a small boat is stupid. Gasoline engines are in small boats mostly for performance. Diesels just don't measure up.

There's nothing romantic or superior about diesels in general. The classiest boat in the world, a Riva runabout, is powered by a gasoline engine.

Most pleasure boats are powered by gasoline engines because the're superior for most applications. You use the word "cheap" as though it's of less quality whereas performance and less cost is a win win. The quality is in the performance. Usually it's superior.
 
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