Lithium Ion Batteries

What are y'alls thoughts on these batts:

Lithium Marine Batteries

Pros: Lightweight, 5 yr. warranty, no maintenance,
Cons: Expensive

Mike
Baton Rouge, LA

For starting and house batteries, I'm an acid guy all the way:

• Very long lived if treated right
• Much cheaper.
• Light doesn't matter in a slow trawler. Ballast is good!
• Can buy them anywhere if you are in a pinch
• Compatible with all modern charger/inverters

Fire Hazard if overcharge

Cars,planes,boats.......big NO

What would prevent LiFePO4 batteries from working with an inverter/charger as suggested in post #2, and why wouldn't the overcharge protection supplied by an inverter/charger prevent overcharging/fires as suggested in post #3?

Lithium Ion batteries are in everything on the planet these days. All our professional video gear--- cameras, lights, audio, etc.--- is powered with them, and fairly large ones at that. They're fantastic. Lightweight, charge fast, no charging memory, and put out way more power than the old NiCads.

We've taken these things all over the world for years and never had a problem with them at all. They need to be designed correctly, they need to be made correctly, and they need to be controlled correctly but this notion that there's some sort of evil bugaboo about Lithium Ion batteries is uninformed at best and ignorant at worst. If there was a cost and performance advantage to having them in our boat we wouldn't even blink at the notion of installing them.

The side debate about lithium ion batteries and Boeing has been moved intact to this thread already well underway about the subject.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s51/faa-grounds-787-a-8518.html

The LI batt advantage , like the AGM advantage is in its rapid charge rate acceptance.

IF you need batts you can hammer full with huge amps , you may be able to charge the house in 15 min, and live 4 days as Calder claims he does.

Just how many thousands you are willing to pay for the "sound of silence " is up to you.

Quiet is grand but for my bucks a propane fridge & range , Dickinson diesel heat and LED bulbs with an 85W solar takes care of quiet at anchor, for days or weeks as required.

The 120V blender , microwave and coffee grinder are handled with a chop chop cheapo inverter (1500W under $200) for their 3 min a day.

The house batt bank is there to serve your needs , LI seldom serves better as its "advantages" are seldom useful, but always expensive .

That's true. Most LiPos charge at 2C and even discharge at rates of 15C-20C without significant heat growth. Some are rated upwards of 90C burst.

For example, a 200AH Lipo can supply 200A for an hour... or up to 90 times that in a surge! It's amazing technology.

(C = Capacity)

A 100 AH 12 volt Sears Die Hard Marine Platinum battery costs about $259. The equivalent in the link is $1,299.99. That's a pretty big negative in my book.

rwidman said:

A 100 AH 12 volt Sears Die Hard Marine Platinum battery costs about $259. The equivalent in the link is $1,299.99. That's a pretty big negative in my book.

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Then again, if what they say on their site is correct, it'll last 10 times longer and be 50% less over time. (No affiliations or agenda here...just looking on as an interested newcomer).

MurrayM said:

Then again, if what they say on their site is correct, it'll last 10 times longer and be 50% less over time. (No affiliations or agenda here...just looking on as an interested newcomer).

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For me, that would be $6499.95 for five batteries. I may not live long enough to come out ahead. And if you sell the boat, buyers may not be willing to pay the extra for the premium batteries..

If the $259 battery in Ron's example will last six years are you saying the LI battery will last sixty years?

Hey, Craig; I'm not saying, just repeating what they wrote.

Sorry Ron...guess I'm not close enough to "the end" to start budgeting that way

MurrayM said:

Hey, Craig; I'm not saying, just repeating what they wrote.

Sorry Ron...guess I'm not close enough to "the end" to start budgeting that way

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Consider what I said about resale. Just like with a house, it's possible do overdo some things.

rwidman said:

Consider what I said about resale. Just like with a house, it's possible do overdo some things.

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Resale? Nope, no way. I'm a one boat kinda guy! Been using the same camera, lenses, tripod, and spot meter I bought 30 years ago and never needed to buy more gear. One girlfriend/common law wife for 28 years too. Man, I'm on a roll

How much do I think lithium ion batteries would increase the value of a boat on resale? Probably zero. They may be looked at as a nice to have item. Like the additions I am putting on Moonstruck, they will not increase the value one cent. The buyer is buying a boat not batteries. Very few would be savvy enough to even appreciate the batteries.

I buy stuff to use, and maintain what I have. It is a depreciating asset. The value is in the use.

Value to a buyer is based entirely on how they perceive it. In my business if we put a $400 cost item in a home, and it is perceived to be worth $800 I just made $400. If it cost $2000, and it is perceived to be worth $1000 I just lost $1000. Cost has no relationship to market.

How do you charge them?? My chargers only have settings for wet/Gel/AGM!!

They take specialized chargers. They have an entirely different charge curve than lead acid. Let them drop too low and you lose them forever. They also need to be balanced occasionally.

How much do I think lithium ion batteries would increase the value of a boat on resale? Probably zero

About the same return for fancy electronics , which are 2 generations behind when you open the box to install them.

Folks will happily pay for useful things , central heat , good investment ,

Wi Fi readout of the black tank contents to an I phone , not so much.

I think it may actually hurt you. Most folks aren't associating LiPo batteries with goodness right now. Even in the best of times I can see no case where LiPos would outperform lead acid batts in a boat. Most of us can carry the weight without issue, and replace them many times over for the cost of LiPos.

They are great technology, but still no cost effective on boats.

SomeSailor said:

Most of us can carry the weight without issue, and replace them many times over for the cost of LiPos. They are great technology, but still no cost effective on boats.

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In my case, the first set of Trojan 105s lasted 8 years. The second set is now entering its third year at a replacement cost of about $940 for the 8 wet acid batteries. I see no reason to consider AGMs, Lis or NiCds for house or starting on a cost basis in my vessel. But I do use AGMs for the bow thruster.

Murray, assuming he is 12 years old, will live long enough to see his set of Li batteries last for his 92 year lifetime and thus earn the cost advantages of his set of Lis assuming 0% inflation and a 0% interest rate for the next 80 years. However, on an real world NPV basis his batteries will be worth more than his boat in about 20 years suggesting a nice simple LA setup would be in his best financial interest.

sunchaser said:

Murray, assuming he is 12 years old, will live long enough to see his set of Li batteries last for his 92 year lifetime and thus earn the cost advantages of his set of Lis assuming 0% inflation and a 0% interest rate for the next 80 years. However, on an real world NPV basis his batteries will be worth more than his boat in about 20 years suggesting a nice simple LA setup would be in his best financial interest.

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While not 12 years old, I've been told I am quite immature for my age

I'm not buying, just asking questions...

SomeSailor said:

I think it may actually hurt you. Most folks aren't associating LiPo batteries with goodness right now.............

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They are cost effective and great for cameras, computers, cordless tools, etc.. I don't think anyone would chose something else for these applications.

I agree that they aren't cost effective for boats at the present time. Get the cost down to equal AGMs and they might be.

It depends on your usage if they are cost effective. If you are a full time cruiser and anchor out most all the time, LiFePO4 cells are the cheapest in the long run when you consider cycle life. My next house/propulsion bank will be these cells.

If weight vs energy density is a major consideration, the LiFePO4 is the way to go. I have an electric kayak that with the group 27 LA had 16~18 nm range, for the same weight in LiFePO4 cells runs 80 nm, perfect for kayak camping. Great charge acceptance, I have an 8 lb 50 amp charger that will recharge one bank during lunch at a marina.

Also, ratings are very conservative. A LA battery gets its a-hr rating based on a 20 hour rate of discharge or 0.05C to full discharge (100% DOD). A LiFePO4 gets its rating at 1.0C to 80% DOD. So, comparing apples to apples, a 200 a-hr LA battery at 1.0C discharge due to peukert effect will only have 140 a-hr capacity and LA should not be discharged lower than 50% DOD (if you want 500 cycles) for a usable capacity of 70 a-hr. The LiFePO4 can be discharged to 80% DOD and even at a 1.0C discharge will deliver its 100 a-hr rating for 3000 cycles.

(2) 100 a-hr 12 volt (13 volt) packs

You need to use cycles per lifetime per cell to get a real idea of cost savings. I venture to to guess that even the most aggressive of cruisers won't cycle them enough to make the business case work.

Most business cases that won't close (positive NPV within 18 mos) are because we try to use the same logic being used here.

If we plan to have a set of batteries last 5 years... full cycle every night, you might have a problem that LiPo makes sense, but even then I'd bet the math isn't in your favor.

They are very cool. I fly them in RC planes and they are remarkable when you need high current, fast discharge power. But... there's nothing fast about my baot.

rwidman said:

They are cost effective and great for cameras, computers, cordless tools, etc.. I don't think anyone would chose something else for these applications.

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I would choose something else for the cordless tools you mentioned. NiCad.

I would not and will not own lithium battery operated tools. Stupidly expensive for no benefit real or perceived. The folks that expound their virtues in the tool application, and there are plenty of them, seldom use them professionally. If they do they are maintenance personnel or homeowners looking for a cool toy. Hardly what I would call rugged field use.

Ryobi makes the most cost efficient tool in the category and their NiCad batteries can be replaced with new when needed for less than $30/pair in 18 volt.

Weight might be a valid reason. You can get amperage from a given weight of LiPo battery that you'll never see in a NiCd or NiMH pack. It's for the same reason we fly with them.

A battery that weighs 488 grams (just over a pound) can deliver 5000Mah (at up to 40C)! @24VDC

You could literally start your boat with a battery that fits in your pocket.

Like I said, depends on the application. I have 3 EVs, and in that arena LiFePO4 is the only way to go and the cheapest. For cordless power tools I've used the 36 volt Dewalt system that uses A123 lithium batteries and can tell you first hand that the circular saw will cut faster than any plug in saw I've used when plugged into the typical 50' extension cord. The next time I'm out cruising full time, my sailboat will have an all electric galley all the way to a 1650 watt BBQ I'm using now. It and the other systems will be powered by a 48 volt 1400 a-hr LiFePO4 bank, that will be used as the inverter/propulsion bank. The dinghy will also be electric powered, and for long range exploring I have that electric powered kayak. My intent is to do away with gasoline and propane, and be able to lounge on the hook for as long as I want.

CPseudonym said:

I would choose something else for the cordless tools you mentioned. NiCad.

I would not and will not own lithium battery operated tools. Stupidly expensive for no benefit real or perceived.

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Dunno about that. Makita is gradually changing their cordless power tool line over to lithium batteries. We recently bought a new lithium battery 1/2" drill to replace the older Makita nicad drill that if you can even find batteries for they are more expensive than buying a whole new drill. The nicads gave up several years ago and would no longer hold a charge for more than a few days. And the cost for the new lithium 1/2" drill was not much different than the cost of the nicad drill it was replacing.

We recently had some work done on our house. Everybody from the guy who ran the gas line into the kitchen for the new stove to the guy who was making wall modifications had new lithium-powered tools and thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. In fact they were the ones who inspired us to go out and get our own new Makita drill.

As I mentioned earlier, all our professional video gear---cameras, new LED lights, audio equipment, HD field monitors--- are all powered by lithium battery packs and have been for a number of years now. There is no way the old ni-cad batteries could even come close in terms of performance and longevity.

Based on my own experience with lithium batteries, I would never buy anything powered by nicad batteries again. They are simply not cost-effective anymore in my opinion.