Any Synthetic Oil Users Here?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
Craig Schreck said:
Out of spec Diesel fuel will cause high coolant temps,When the cetane level drops below a certain value the fuel will not burn @ the proper time, Transferring the heat energy from driving the piston into the cooling system.
Click to expand...
Do you have A published source for that info? I'd love to see it!
 
manyboats said:
Walt since you've entered into this as a serious experiment I think the most objective results will be obtained by removing the thermostat. Check w Cummins to make sure running w/o the thermostat is totally safe. I don't see how the results could be considered stable enough to produce objective results w the thermostat in place.

Then adhere to the scientific method of 3. One experiment gets our attention. Two indicates that there's a strong possibility and they say you can take 3 to the bank. Of course 4 or 5 would make some folks feel better 3 is considered to be sufficient.

And then try to think of the many other variables that could take the experiment astray. If the sun has evaporated the dew on the foredeck but left it in the aft cockpit the boat will run at a higher angle of attack causing more load on the engine at the same rpm and thus cause the coolant to run hotter. I'm joking of course but there are likely unknown variables that will affect the outcome of the experiment. On your boat at the 8.5 knots you usually run full or light fuel and water could change the load enough to change the engine temp. That's the other extreme to the first example but you get the picture I'm sure.


Art re the hot Perkins ............ why didn't it loose coolant? Over all those running hours surely you would have had to add unusual amounts of coolant and included that in your account.
Click to expand...

Eric - That's one of the odd items about the "head" problem on the Perkins. I do not recall any coolant reductions of volume. In the first season of use (while engine ran quite hot) we took some fairly long trips along the cost and I never recall needing to add coolant. Like I mentioned in my post regarding the Perkins head replacement, I did not get a clear mental picture as to what the actual head problem was. Just that it was a hairline crack or some sort of malformation was all I understood?? I was 13/14 yrs when this all went down and not mechanically savvy enough yet to understand all that was going on or how things were sometimes explained to me. But, it was pretty exciting for me (a kid at that young age) to be closely included into a big project such as that; I felt honored! Having been on and around boats since birth, I was already working summers at boat yards and had fallen in love with all types of boats. Walt’s the focus now... I sure hope he can get his temp problem resolved!

BTW: If I read your suggestion correctly; I disagree with you about removing the thermostat, at least upon first engine temp tests. I feel Walt should leave it in at change-over from dino to syn oil... as that seems the only way he will really know if the lubes actually created different engine temps with all else staying equal. Also, I believe he said in earlier post that the thermostat had been changed already... so that means the thermostat is not the culprit for high temp creation.
 
FF said:
The only part of the engine that might be "better" lubed is the flat tappets running on the cam,the only place where the sheer ability of the oil is really used. Modern engines use roller tappets, no gain.
Click to expand...
Scroll to the bottom of the page and click on "Protecting Critical Turbocharger parts"

Synthetic Oil | Why Use
 
SeaHorse II said:
Why are so many people interested in what I'm doing? It's not as if I'm putting saw dust in the differential of an old Ford to sell it! The only thing at risk here is a few hundred dollars of which I can replace by panhandling on the corner for a few days.
Click to expand...

Because you keep posting about it????:D

And believe me..I doubt most care whether you experiment or not as many here often post they don't even care what trained professionals with decades of experience post....:socool:
 
Marin, It could be several factors also but I think I eliminated these. 1. larger heat exchangers, 2.cool Pacific ocean temps. The reason I say those were eliminated is because I did several crossings that held steady at 180 using Rotella.

I never expected the lower temps nor the reduced sheen. I was going for cleaning out the carbon in the engine. Now I read synthetic oil isn't a high detergent oil. lol
 
psneeld said:
Because you keep posting about it????:D
Click to expand...
if you referring to my answering the questions that come up....yep, I'm guilty of posting often about it. Sorry for your inconvenience.:blush: Please feel free to use your "ignore" button.
 
SeaHorse II said:
if you referring to my answering the questions that come up....yep, I'm guilty of posting often about it. Sorry for your inconvenience.:blush: Please feel free to use your "ignore" button.
Click to expand...

Gee Wizz Walt - Don't stop posting! :thumb:

This is just getting interesting and many seek to not only learn results from your dino to syn oil change-test... but, also to learn more bout your engine's actual reason for developing higher than desired temp readings. BTW: You ever point an infrared temp gun onto parts of engine while running at different rpm to help determine the real temps? Could be your sender or gauge is off a bit – but, I bet you already changed them at least once, don't recall your mention of that. :confused:
 
Art said:
Damn - Heat in that turbo charger video is plumb SCARY!! :dance:
Click to expand...
Well its a good thing they dont use dry turbo exhaust housings on boats anymore :smitten: but where does all that heat go in a wet exhaust housing ? Its a good thing we have an entire ocean to transfer heat to. Does fuel and cetane have any effects on exhaust temps :popcorn: Does fuel timing vs crank angle have an effect coolant temps? Ever time your car wrong and over heat? Most marine diesel cooling problems are simple like volume, flow, exchanger efficiency or a loose belt etc.... but sometimes when you have a problem that's stumping the pros you got to get out of the box a little, I have seen some bad cylinder heads crack and allow some exhaust gases into the cooling system causing a load overheat wile allowing no coolant to leak into the cylinders. I have also seen fresh water coolant circulating pumps cavitate allowing bubbles to cause high temp from reduced heat transfer,I have seen people run straight anti freeze with no water, the old green stuff with tons of silicon, well the silicon will coat the cooling system reducing heat transfer causing high temps, wile very uncommon it happens. Oh and for the scary turbo vid, The fella said they were simulating racing conditions with synth oil vs standard dino, they should have used a racing dino for those conditions it would have preformed much better.
 
SeaHorse II said:
The only thing at risk here is a few hundred dollars of which I can replace by panhandling on the corner for a few days.
Click to expand...

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

As Skipperdude is now living off the grid I'll post the following in his honor.



Walt you crack my ass up!
 

Attachments

  • ass.jpg
    ass.jpg
    17 KB · Views: 154
I received this today in an e-mail from a friend whose career is installing, servicing, and maintaining marine engines of all kinds in everything from recreational production boats to custom yachts. I had commented to him on the topic of this thread and here is his reply.

You all can certainly comment on what he wrote but as I possess but one ten thousandth of one percent of his engine experience and knowledge I am in no position to either defend or refute it other than to say it sure makes sense to me.

----------------------

Many people believe that almost all of the heat produced by a diesel engine comes from combustion. In fact, they may be interested to learn that friction losses can amount to as high as 10 percent of an engine's heat rejection.

Synthetics flow much easier at low temperatures. They also flow much easier at operating temperature so, yes, they do reduce friction by a measurable amount and require less power to pump the stuff around. That reduction is reflected in less heat produced by friction and fuel burn. The piston ring to cylinder contact is responsible for about 50 percent of the friction losses (friction produced heat) and the bearings provide another 30 percent or so.

The bottom line is that synthetic lube will lower engine heat production and by extension,temperature. But, and this is the big but, if the cooling system is functioning properly with adequate margins for fouling, high sea temperature, and loss of efficiency from pump wear or other normal conditions, the difference would be lost in the noise.

The two or three degrees you mentioned is what I would call noise. There are other issues that make that visible and those issues could be a cooling system or installation that has zero margin, a difference in bearing clearances, ring pressure (how tight in the cylinders)block casting roughness, a single bearing running hotter than the others (we measure individual bearing temps in large engines rather than assume an average based on measuring oil temp) or just normal manufacturing tolerances. That is why there is a range of allowable temperatures rather than a single figure.

Someone else changing to synthetic might see a temperature change if their engine is operating at the upper limits of its margin of heat rejection, or see nothing at all if the system is operating at the lower margin or in the middle. By system, I don't mean just cooling system, I mean the boat and its auxiliaries as a complete system in the sense of physics.

-------------------------------
 
373 posts!

I got lost and gave up a couple hundred posts ago. Has anything been decided? Anyone changed their position on the controversy? Should I switch to synthetic? How about a blend? Or stay with conventional oil?

1999 Volvo TAMD41P 3K+ hours
 
Marin said:
I am in no position to either defend or refute it other than to say it sure makes sense to me. (Makes sense to me, too!

----------------------
In fact, they may be interested to learn that friction losses can amount to as high as 10 percent of an engine's heat rejection. (Really!)

Synthetics flow much easier at low temperatures. They also flow much easier at operating temperature so, yes, they do reduce friction by a measurable amount ............

The bottom line is that synthetic lube will lower engine heat production and by extension,temperature. We'll see........

The two or three degrees you mentioned is what I would call noise. There are other issues that make that visible and those issues could be a cooling system or installation that has zero margin..........given what I've already done, I could subscribe to this quite easily.

Someone else changing to synthetic might see a temperature change if their engine is operating at the upper limits of its margin of heat rejection, I believe, at the moment, that is the case with my engine. I'm going forward, however, with the change. I can see no down side to this experiment. Only an upside.
-------------------------------
Click to expand...
Thanks, Marin...One hell uv a post!
 
HAPPY EASTER TO ALL!!!

:speed boat: :dance::dance::dance: :speed boat:​
 
I follow the engine builder's manual.
 
Goodness gracious! Is this still going on?

If this is still going on this Tuesday, I'll consider joining in again. Otherwise, I am on time-off.
 
I don't think the issue is resolved. Many posts ago I recommended Yak Fat, but apparently no one took it seriously. Oh well...

img_145876_0_608f013a41b52c6f7cfecb4e57d96b34.jpg


Happy Easter!
 
Turbo cooldown is a concern , but most folks will go from high turbo boost to tied up at a slip in over 3-5 min.

This is ample time to cool down the turbo and not coke the oil in the unit from residual heat.

Perhaps a sport fish , running on the pin that crash stops to anchor and secure the engine frequently might need synthetic.
 
Marin's friend says it takes less power to pump the oil (fluid) around. Don't buy that at all. It's the viscosity that requires power to move the fluid. Has nothing to do w slipperiness or lubricity. If syn takes less power to move through the system it's a lower viscosity fluid .... that's all. Put lower viscosity dino oil in and lower levels of power will be required. Nothing to do w syn oil.

However extreme ranges of multi-vis (frequently associated w syn oil) will lower the pumping friction for a short time warming up. When the VI improvers are less effective the oil will thin out. But if dino oil is the same viscosity when warmed up ....... no reduction in friction or temperature will result. But w extreme multi-vis VI improvers are probably employed and if they "wear out" or fail in any way an overall reduction in viscosity will result and lower viscosity will result in less heat and lower friction. But that will happen w dino oil in the same way. But lower viscosity will result in a lesser ability for the oil (dino or syn) to keep the metal parts from contacting each other. But w the syn oil running longer change intervals more time will tend to break down the viscosity improvers and it's possible or even likely that the viscosity of syn oil could or would suffer from extended change intervals.
 
manyboats said:
When the VI improvers are less effective the oil will thin out. But if dino oil is the same viscosity when warmed up ....... no reduction in friction or temperature will result. But w extreme multi-vis VI improvers are probably employed and if they "wear out" or fail in any way an overall reduction in viscosity will result and lower viscosity will result in less heat and lower friction. But that will happen w dino oil in the same way. But lower viscosity will result in a lesser ability for the oil (dino or syn) to keep the metal parts from contacting each other. But w the syn oil running longer change intervals more time will tend to break down the viscosity improvers and it's possible or even likely that the viscosity of syn oil could or would suffer from extended change intervals.
Click to expand...
No offense intended, Eric, but I'm totally confused!
 
manyboats said:
Marin's friend says it takes less power to pump the oil (fluid) around. Don't buy that at all. It's the viscosity that requires power to move the fluid. Has nothing to do w slipperiness or lubricity.
Click to expand...

While it's not my area of expertise, I don't think you can separate viscosity from lubricity. They are tied together. And it seems totally logical to me that if something is more "slippery," it will be easier to move, which means it will take less energy to move it. This holds true if you are trying to slide a piano across a floor or move a fluid through the narrow passages in an engine block.

And if it takes less energy to move it, the creation of that energy will generate less heat, be it in your body while moving the piano or in your engine as it moves the lubricating oil around through it.

Reducing friction and thus the resistance to movement is a factor of both lubricity (slipperiness if you will) and viscosity (density or "thickness"). The two work hand in hand to create the lubricating and flow characteristics of the fluid, in this case oil.

That's my take on it anyway. If my engine-industry friend has a comment on this particular aspect of the topic I will pass it on.
 
Marin said:
I received this today in an e-mail from a friend whose career is installing, servicing, and maintaining marine engines of all kinds in everything from recreational production boats to custom yachts. I had commented to him on the topic of this thread and here is his reply.

You all can certainly comment on what he wrote but as I possess but one ten thousandth of one percent of his engine experience and knowledge I am in no position to either defend or refute it other than to say it sure makes sense to me.

----------------------

Many people believe that almost all of the heat produced by a diesel engine comes from combustion. In fact, they may be interested to learn that friction losses can amount to as high as 10 percent of an engine's heat rejection.

Synthetics flow much easier at low temperatures. They also flow much easier at operating temperature so, yes, they do reduce friction by a measurable amount and require less power to pump the stuff around. That reduction is reflected in less heat produced by friction and fuel burn. The piston ring to cylinder contact is responsible for about 50 percent of the friction losses (friction produced heat) and the bearings provide another 30 percent or so.

The bottom line is that synthetic lube will lower engine heat production and by extension,temperature. But, and this is the big but, if the cooling system is functioning properly with adequate margins for fouling, high sea temperature, and loss of efficiency from pump wear or other normal conditions, the difference would be lost in the noise.

The two or three degrees you mentioned is what I would call noise. There are other issues that make that visible and those issues could be a cooling system or installation that has zero margin, a difference in bearing clearances, ring pressure (how tight in the cylinders)block casting roughness, a single bearing running hotter than the others (we measure individual bearing temps in large engines rather than assume an average based on measuring oil temp) or just normal manufacturing tolerances. That is why there is a range of allowable temperatures rather than a single figure.

Someone else changing to synthetic might see a temperature change if their engine is operating at the upper limits of its margin of heat rejection, or see nothing at all if the system is operating at the lower margin or in the middle. By system, I don't mean just cooling system, I mean the boat and its auxiliaries as a complete system in the sense of physics.



-------------------------------
Click to expand...



Good post :thumb: all excellent points.... Temperature range is a key here not the exact gauge reading , Now lets go back to fuel vs oil for possible causes of high range temp for a sec... lets use round #s not exact figures for speed and ease, Syn vs dino for starts... lets say synth will reduce friction heat load by 10% over dino ... we will use 250*F for oil temp so... that would be a 25*F heat reduction to the engine oil cooler. That's a good thing. Now lets look @ fuel, Out of spec diesel fuel that is low in cetane can raise exhaust gas temps by as much as 10%..... So average turbo EGTs under load, lets say 1200*F @ 10% is 120*F rise in heat load to the fresh water cooling heat exchanger.That's a bad thing, Now lets use the 90 / 10 ratio for source of heat in our diesel that the heat exchangers must deal with also the fact that the OP is looking @ his temp gauge for the fresh water side of the cooling system.... Does fuel quality have anything to do a high range temp problem...??? Although oil quality has a lot to do with diesel performance and life span.... Fuel quality plays a bigger role by a ratio of 80 /20 ... and we are just scratching the surface on fuel quality...:eek:
 
Marin,
I spoze it's possible there's a boundary layer thing going on but I really don't think so. Water has low lubricity but flows in a tube well and oil flows less well. I don't think there connected Marin. But I can relate to you're thinking so.

Craig S,
"synth will reduce friction heat load by 10% over dino" Do you really think so??? I'm thinking it's more like 2 or 3% ... if at all. There must be many studies that show very closely what the difference in lubricity is. Can't help but be many. Could some skilled searcher find something for us to relate to?
 
Last edited:
Several sources I have read from engineering or petroleum companies suggest that syn oils reduce operating temps by 10-15 degrees over dino oils but in an engine application it may never be seen due to the cooling system.

mainly due to reduced viscosity because higher flow rates transmit the heat faster plus some have better heat transfer properties in general.
 
manyboats said:
Marin,
I spoze it's possible there's a boundary layer thing going on but I really don't think so. Water has low lubricity but flows in a tube well and oil flows less well. I don't think there connected Marin. But I can relate to you're thinking so.

Craig S,
"synth will reduce friction heat load by 10% over dino" Do you really think so??? I'm thinking it's more like 2 or 3% ... if at all. There must be many studies that show very closely what the difference in lubricity is. Can't help but be many. Could some skilled searcher find something for us to relate to?
Click to expand...


Eric, 2 or 3% would be closer but the end result would still hold true, The scary Mobil 1 guy said the EGTs were @ 1600*F in that test :eek: In these times its harder to fend thru engineering fact or friction. :D
 
The bigger question is whether any of these few percentage points actually matter based on the life expectancy of the iron lumps in the belly of our boats? Moreover, based on the much higher increase in the cost difference? That's still the most BASIC question that I have yet seen answered and what keeps me from making the switch. When companies that produce regular oil stop making it and completely switch to synth because it is proven superior and regular oil is obsolete, I will be sold, but as it stands now, I feel like they are just offering a gourmet product for little more than a promise and that you are ok paying top-dollar for it. And that's fine.
 
Walt

While helping yourself to ascertain reason(s) for the too high heat in your engine... I look forward to your syn – vs – dino oil test that may help us all toward further defining what syn – vs – dino oil usage could accomplish.

Clearly there have become no “fool proof actualizations” of syn – vs – dino usage parameters accounted for throughout this thread; amongst the many, many 1st hand inputs, thoughtful conjectures, and even some 2nd hand input stemming from supposed "experts" that one or more of us may know... there are simply too many well-meaning contradictions constantly being thrown around. Also, www links have hundreds of manufacturers’ broad range comparisons or completely separate test accountings as well as some outsourced “clinical studies” supposedly performed by engineers and under strict conditions that also leave a lot to be desired as compared to truly beneficial and absolutely undeniable proofs from long term, accurate “blind test studies”.

Therefore – results from your synthetic oil – vs – hydrocarbon oil test will add even more good will input to our continuing search for the best engine and gear box lubrication products on the market.

Best Luck - Art :thumb:
 
Tom B,
That's a great summary of what I would call basic reality.

psneeld,
If the operating temp (you don't say oil or coolant) is actually significantly lower 85% of the trawler operators here should forget about syn oil as using it would have the effect of even lower loading relative to oil temp and that's the issue w under loading.
OR the reverse could be true in that the syn oil is so clean that keeping tars, varnishes and soot in the lubricant suspended would be almost a non issue. Perhaps underloading would be a non issue at ANY engine speed and this could be a really good reason for those loading at less than 40% to switch to syn oil. I hadn't thought of it before but this could be a really good reason to go synthetic. I operate a bit over 50% load so wouldn't benefit but for the many here that do there could be a real benefit for using synthetic oil.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Newtrawlerowner
Oil change interval
2
Replies
38
Views
3K
Csellars
C
4
Perkins diesel engine oil
Replies
7
Views
2K
fgarriso
fgarriso
F
oil pan replacement concerns
Replies
19
Views
1K
Steve DAntonio
Steve DAntonio
trawlercap
Luggers and Napa auto parts
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
Steve DAntonio
Steve DAntonio
RickyD
Used oil to power our diesel boats
2 3
Replies
70
Views
6K
Mainship Pilot
Mainship Pilot

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom