Any Synthetic Oil Users Here?

LarryM said:

I, the oil still looks new, crystal clear, new. What does the oil analysis say for soot, metals, water, ash, volatiles and diesel fuel? I've never seen opacity as analysis tracker
I was told they routinely operate commercial diesels 'many' thousands of hours between oil changes, particularly with modern synthetic lubricants. This sets a record for any diesel on land sea or air!

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A review of Yanmar warranties and recommendations shows lesser hours than you were told by Laborde, more like 300 to 400 on their Tier IIIs.

Sunchaser,

I first became curious about synthetic oil and change interval when I found the Rotella T6 still appeared clean in my Yanmar at 150 hours. I had never seen this in any diesel engine before. I assumed it was due to quality oil, good filtration and a clean, modern engine. Since the oil appeared so clean, I began to wonder if it would be safe to run longer since the synthetic oil manufacturers use terms like 'extended life' etc. in their advertizing. Remember, I have not had any oil analysis performed so far. My only clue to the oil condition was the look and smell when it was changed, which obviously is not a very reliable way to gauge the condition. That is precisely why I am going to begin having the oil analyzed. If the chemistry is good, I am only reaching for 300 hours max.

As for the thousands of hours between diesel oil changes, there seems to be at least some anecdotal evidence to support the claims:

1. The Louisiana Department of Natural Resources published a report entitled 90,000 Mile Diesel Engine Oil Changes where they state "Sixty-thousand (60,000) mile diesel oil change intervals have been successfully achieved in fleet operation using Amsoil synthetic based oils. Amsoil has produced premium, synthetic based API approved diesel engine oils since 1972. Present fleet tests of 90,000 mile drain intervals have found the oil free and clean of deposits and suitable for continued use. Amsoil claims a four to eight percent increase in fuel economy when using their product."

2. An article about Amsoil Synthetic - 409,000 Mile Oil Change Interval
409,000-Mile Oil Change Interval with AMSOIL Synthetic 15w40 Diesel Oil

3. I also found this comment on a trucker's site regarding synthetics "Top quality synthetics like Delvac 1 are capable of going 100k in the right application. To be totally safe, the best thing to do is run it for the normal interval (6 months or 6k) and send a sample in for analysis. The lab can give you a good guesstimate on how much longer it could have safely run. Run it that far the next time and retest. A filter change can make a big difference in how long oil can be run safely, the quart of make-up oil gives a "second wind" to the TBN."

If true, these accounts do equate to oil change intervals of over a thousand hours, but definitely not 'many' thousands. Oil analysis and frequent filter changes seem to be the key elements in determining the optimum extended oil change interval.

Finally, I would always agree the safest approach is to follow the manufacturer's recommendations. In my case, the only nuance is the introduction of full synthetics into the conversation. They are not mentioned in any of my Yanmar service manuals or literature, all of which was printed before they came into common usage.

Thanks for your input.

Larry

A filter change can make a big difference in how long oil can be run safely, the quart of make-up oil gives a "second wind" to the TBN."

Most truck filters hold way more than a quart, so swopping the filter will add fresh chemicals.

Here's a simple question that could last another 50 posts.

Soot, dirt and much else gets into the lube oil if the lube oil is dino and contaminates it. But most of the contaminates are scared to death of syn oil and won't enter it. Magic?

OK, OK, OK!!!

I now better understand and am confident of the chances for enhanced long term internal engine lubrication as well as no need for concern of modern day syn oil ruining old-school gaskets. I will in near future begin test-use of a high quality Synthetic Oil. I well know that the general operation and lifespan of any mechanically interactive parts is greatly influenced (improved/extended) by being sure to always keep good quality lubricants fresh and at full levels.

Next scheduled oil change interval I will install a quality synthetic oil (that has high zinc ppm) into one of my good condition (1967 to 1989) classic, flat tappet V8 gas engines. This syn oil installation will likely occur in my high performance 350 cid 325 hp 1 ton 4wd truck engine with 80K mi or in my 430 cid 360 hp Buick Wildcat at 121K mi... neither engine currently uses more than 1 pint dino oil between my 2K mi oil and filter changes; both engines are well tuned and run exceptionally strong.

From doing this test I will gain firsthand knowledge of how syn oil performs before I might also apply its use into our 1977 Tolly Cruiser’s low hours since rebuild, good condition 350 cid, 255 hp Mercruiser (GM) engines that currently use way less than I pint oil between 100 hr oil and filter changes.

I just had long conversation with Amsoil engineer... in addition to much reading of reports on syn and dino oils, considerable input from this thread's OP, as well many other interesting contributions from TF boating community participants... regarding syn ol –vs - dino oil.

Unless I was to run into some currently unexpected reason to not try synthetic oil I will post my findings as time progresses during my first syn oil test-use. Wish me luck, thanks!

Happy Boating Daze! - Art

Amsoil buys the synthetic from Mobile.

Well Art it sounds like you're not going to put the stuff in your boat engines. Why not. You may be hesitant and if you are you feel like you're taking a chance and things may not work out.

Now would be a good time to ask what you expect to gain w the syn oil.
Are you SURE that was an engineer you talked to? Perhaps he started out in the sales dept. Now I'm joking.

Now that you've talked to the Amsoil guy show your openness by using Mobile 1 oil.

Cap I see your post and I'm glad that's the case.

manyboats said:

Here's a simple question that could last another 50 posts.

Soot, dirt and much else gets into the lube oil if the lube oil is dino and contaminates it. But most of the contaminates are scared to death of syn oil and won't enter it. Magic?

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Eric - That's a darn good question and one I’ve been keeping my eye on. So far what I've learned regarding this situation:

Synthetic oil does not dissolve the soot/dirt the way dino oil does (therefore dino oil becomes intricately contaminated wherein filters cannot separate dissolved soot from dino)... but rather syn oil suspends the contaminants amongst syn oil molecules and deposits (non dissolved) contaminants into a high quality filter, of say 20 microns. Evidently this is why it is recommended to often change filters, say in 5K mi intervals. I guess even closer mileage filter changes would not be a bad idea either.

I think this is the best information gaining thread I’ve seen on TF... and its contents/meaning has good implications/learning for every person who uses any lubrication inside any machinery.

BIG Thumbs up to thread OP – Capthead!!

Capthead said:

Amsoil buys the synthetic from Mobile.

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TY for heads up!

What Is Lubricant Oil Soot?
Lubricant soot is a by-product of diesel combustion. Soot is formed in fuel-rich, cool regions of the combustion chamber and impinges on the cylinder wall, where it is scraped into the engine oil sump by the piston rings. Soot is partially burnt fuel which results in a heterocyclic hydrocarbon particle.

Upon entering the engine oil sump, the soot is rapidly mixed in with the bulk oil and circulates throughout the engine. As oil passes through the engine gears, the soot particles are ground into extremely fine particles, nominally 1000 Angstroms, and are maintained in suspension by the lubricant dispersants.

The soot will remain homogeneously suspended in the oil, until the soot concentration reaches a level great enough that it precipitates out of the oil. This may also result in filter plugging. Oil formulations which have high dispersancy levels will keep the soot in suspension to higher concentration levels.

Soot is a non-classical abrasive. It will erode boundary lubricated surfaces at high concentrations. This will cause severe engine wear. Some symptoms of soot induced wear include tappet polishing, cam lobe wear, rocker/crosshead wear and ring wear at top and bottom reversal locations.


Analytical Engineering, Inc. - Lubricant Oil Soot

Art said:

I think this is the best information gaining thread I’ve seen on TF... and its contents/meaning has good implications/learning for every person who uses any lubrication inside any machinery.

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I don't know if it's the "best information gaining thread" but it is, IMO, the most thought provoking thread I've seen in a very long time. Now, if all you closet synthetic oil users would just come forward with your stories, it would be greatly appreciated. Don't worry about being labeled as "wasting your money" as that point is already on the table.

manyboats said:

Well Art it sounds like you're not going to put the stuff in your boat engines. Why not. You may be hesitant and if you are you feel like you're taking a chance and things may not work out.

Now would be a good time to ask what you expect to gain w the syn oil.
Are you SURE that was an engineer you talked to? Perhaps he started out in the sales dept. Now I'm joking.

Now that you've talked to the Amsoil guy show your openness by using Mobile 1 oil.

Cap I see your post and I'm glad that's the case.

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Eric - I often play with things on the side of caution... especially in items having to do with classic hydrocarbon fueled engines that cost bunches to repair/replace, and, that my classics are virtually in perfect current condition. Engine Oil Quality and Cleanliness is a BIG Thing to me... and... Syn Oil Testing-I-Shall-Go! But very carefully!! lol

Reason not at first in boat engines: As this is truly a lubrication-test in my opinion, seeing as I’ve had great luck with high quality dino oil for all my life... During this test, I’d surely rather have any problem occur with car or truck engine rather than an inside salon, under floor engine compartment boat motor - any day! Also - I can easily see all around my truck engine as the truck stands tall off the ground w/4" lifts. Not that I really expect problems to occur due to syn oil. But, cha just don't know what may occur in classic flat tappet engines. My biggest concern is still potential carbon-deposit removals from possible holes in any gaskets, and therefore oil leaks to begin. I’ve been told that modern syn oil ingredients actually remove soot (i.e. carbon) deposits in crevices for then depositing it into the oil filter. Therefore, if any of my classic engines gaskets have deteriorated areas where soot (i.e. gunk) acts as a filler... well... I simply hate a dirty bilge!

Mobil 1 may well be my choice!

SeaHorse II said:

I don't if it's the "best information gaining thread" but it is, IMO, the most thought provoking thread I've seen in a very long time. Now, if all you closet synthetic oil users would just come forward with your stories, it would be greatly appreciated. Don't worry about being labeled as "wasting your money" as that point is already on the table.

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You're BAD Walt... BAD!

I mean that in a GOOD, funny way!!

Art said:

Mobil 1 may well be my choice!

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It's possibly mine too! (I haven't finished my investigation yet.)

So Art the synthetic oil knows to put the dirt in the filter? Smart stuff.

Walt I used Mobile 1 in something that died a long time ago.

Couldn't resist.

SeaHorse II said:

It's possibly mine too! (I haven't finished my investigation yet.)

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Walt - Let me (us all) know what you come up with... I'll do same! - Art

manyboats said:

So Art the synthetic oil knows to put the dirt in the filter? Smart stuff.

Walt I used Mobile 1 in something that died a long time ago.

Couldn't resist.

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Eric - Die due to lube problem??

art said:

walt - let me (us all) know what you come up with... I'll do same! - art

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wilco............

Art - What about the part syn part dino oils like Rotella T-5? They are supposed to have a little of the better of both worlds with even less of the negative.

For years I followed the discussions on Fort Truck Enthusiasts and the Diesel Stop boards and many of the old time pros were really for the blended oils.

Look here... Shell Rotella® Products - Shell Rotella

You may find it interesting also.

manyboats said:

Walt I used Mobile 1 in something that died a long time ago.

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It was probably that turpentine that you added since it worked so well on your teak....

psneeld said:

Art - What about the part syn part dino oils like Rotella T-5? They are supposed to have a little of the better of both worlds with even less of the negative.

For years I followed the discussions on Fort Truck Enthusiasts and the Diesel Stop boards and many of the old time pros were really for the blended oils.

Look here... Shell Rotella® Products - Shell Rotella

You may find it interesting also.

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Oh No...OMG - Even More Lubes' choices ta thank on! I'll soon research Shell Rotella, saved the link in "favorites". TY - Art

Okay, I have only one question that is relevant to me as far as I'm concerned on this topic.

Our boat is 40 years old. At this point our two FL120s have a bit over 3,000 hours on them. We have owned the boat now for 14-1/2 years. Assuming no debilitating health problems and assuming we don't buy a different boat, we anticipate owning and using the boat another 20 years. So we will be putting several thousand more hours on a pair of engines that have a reputation for a service life of 12,000 to 14,000 hours in recreational boat service. This reputation was built when running on the manufacture's recommended oil which is single weight conventional oil.

In the cases I am directly familiar with where an FL120 actually failed to the point of needing an overhaul, the causes were almost always due to a problem involving coolant or raw water. Cooling water/coolant circulation or level failures, blown head gaskets, water backing up the exhaust and entering one or more cylinders, extreme hot spots forming as a result of poor coolant circulation or an air pocket at the front of the Lehman exhaust manifold, and so on.

A retired acquaintance in the UK whose decades-long career was maintaining, repairing, and overhauling Ford of England diesels including the Dorset (base engine of the FL120) told us that the absolute number one killer of that engine is an overheat. The head, he said, is extremely susceptible to warping even after a short period of mild overheating. He is why we have a timer at the helm to remind the person driving to monitor the temp gauges and this has "saved" us on the couple of times a developing cooling problem prompted a quick shutdown before an overheat situation occurred.

So given all that, how would switching to synthetic oil at this point make one iota of difference (other than to our wallets) to the service we expect to get from our engines?

All the evidence points to the fact that if one of our engines does fail in the next 20 years, it will not be due to the lubrication "wear" of using conventional oil.

I have no interest whatsoever in the detaily armchair theorizing and speculation that has composed the bulk of this thread. I don't give a rat's ass about the ppm of zinc in this, that, or the other oil. I look at the service life of the kind of engine we have two of in our boat, a service life that has been conclusively proven by real engines in real boats since the early 1960s using conventional oil, and I don't see how a synthetic oil is going to benefit our engines at all in terms of extending their longevity. When they do die it will be for a reason that will have nothing to do with the kind of oil in them, assuming we change it and the filter regularly, which we do every 100-150 hours.

I'm not saying that synthetic oil won't benefit some other kind of marine diesel, particularly a new-generation one. We use synthetic in our two newest vehicles. But when it ones to boat engines I'm only interested in the ones in our boat and I'm not seeing any reason whatsoever in this thread that points to an increase in their service life or the performance and reliability we will get from them over the next 20 years if we run them on synthetics.

psneeld wrote;

"Art - What about the part syn part dino oils like Rotella T-5? They are supposed to have a little of the better of both worlds with even less of the negative."

So what's the negative?
Seems like a milktoast approach. When ever I use syn oil it's been 100%. If a blend is better than dino then 100% syn is twice as good as the blend. Why bother w the blend?
And a blend could be only 5% synthetic???????

Marin said:

Okay, I have only one question that is relevant to me as far as I'm concerned on this topic.

Our boat is 40 years old. At this point our two FL120s have a bit over 3,000 hours on them. We have owned the boat now for 14-1/2 years. Assuming no debilitating health problems and assuming we don't buy a different boat, we anticipate owning and using the boat another 20 years. So we will be putting several thousand more hours on a pair of engines that have a reputation for a service life of 12,000 to 14,000 hours in recreational boat service. This reputation was built when running on the manufacture's recommended oil which is single weight conventional oil.

In the cases I am directly familiar with where an FL120 actually failed to the point of needing an overhaul, the causes were almost always due to a problem involving coolant or raw water. Cooling water/coolant circulation or level failures, blown head gaskets, water backing up the exhaust and entering one or more cylinders, extreme hot spots forming as a result of poor coolant circulation or an air pocket at the front of the Lehman exhaust manifold, and so on.

A retired acquaintance in the UK whose decades-long career was maintaining, repairing, and overhauling Ford of England diesels including the Dorset (base engine of the FL120) told us that the absolute number one killer of that engine is an overheat. The head, he said, is extremely susceptible to warping even after a short period of mild overheating. He is why we have a timer at the helm to remind the person driving to monitor the temp gauges and this has "saved" us on the couple of times a developing cooling problem prompted a quick shutdown before an overheat situation occurred.

So given all that, how would switching to synthetic oil at this point make one iota of difference (other than to our wallets) to the service we expect to get from our engines?

All the evidence points to the fact that if one of our engines does fail in the next 20 years, it will not be due to the lubrication "wear" of using conventional oil.

I have no interest whatsoever in the detaily armchair theorizing and speculation that has composed the bulk of this thread. I don't give a rat's ass about the ppm of zinc in this, that, or the other oil. I look at the service life of the kind of engine we have two of in our boat, a service life that has been conclusively proven by real engines in real boats since the early 1960s using conventional oil, and I don't see how a synthetic oil is going to benefit our engines at all in terms of extending their longevity. When they do die it will be for a reason that will have nothing to do with the kind of oil in them, assuming we change it and the filter regularly, which we do every 100-150 hours.

I'm not saying that synthetic oil won't benefit some other kind of marine diesel, particularly a new-generation one. We use synthetic in our two newest vehicles. But when it ones to boat engines I'm only interested in the ones in our boat and I'm not seeing any reason whatsoever in this thread that points to an increase in their service life or the performance and reliability we will get from them over the next 20 years if we run them on synthetics.

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Well, Marin – If as you say...

“I [you] have no interest whatsoever in the detaily armchair theorizing and speculation that has composed the bulk of this thread. And... “I [you] don't give a rat's ass about the ppm of zinc in this, that, or the other oil.” And... you cerntially seem so very sure/satisfied of your current dino lube in your diesels. Then, why are you even bothering to post here? Bored and simply have nothing better ta do, or maybe just want to scold thems that have a true interest in unraveling quality comparisons regarding syn – vs – dino lubes?? Do you wish someone would post a miracle (doubtful to happen) about synthetic oils that might get you to change over from using dino oil; dosen’t appear like that is what you seek. I just don't see why you even bothered to post this long down-beat, thread-busten diatribe!

This has been a great thread. Many are having a good time interacting while we learn for one another... At least that the way I see/feel it!! Just sayen!!

manyboats said:

psneeld wrote;

"Art - What about the part syn part dino oils like Rotella T-5? They are supposed to have a little of the better of both worlds with even less of the negative."

So what's the negative?
Seems like a milktoast approach. When ever I use syn oil it's been 100%. If a blend is better than dino then 100% syn is twice as good as the blend. Why bother w the blend?
And a blend could be only 5% synthetic???????

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Go back to post number one and begin again...this time pay close attention to what has been said as positives and negatives...for the most part many are true...if so...then each type has it's positives and negatives...by blending you comprimise...you don't get all the good...but you lessen the bad attributes.

Which in my mind is a good thing and if the price point is important...it might be enough to sway you.

Art said:

[And... you cerntially seem so very sure/satisfied of your current dino lube in your diesels. Then, why are you even bothering to post here? Bored and simply have nothing better ta do, or maybe just want to scold thems that have a true interest in unraveling quality comparisons regarding syn – vs – dino lubes??

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No, I'm not bored although I am just sitting here waiting for this plane to fly. I simply find it fascinating how people can get so wrapped around the axle on what is pretty much a theoretical, non-issue in reality. If you enjoy rambling on forever about stuff that obviously isn't going to change anything, have at it. That's the nature and purpose of forums like this, anyway. I was just trying to see if anyone had any concept of actual, real world reality in this discussion. It appears not.

Marin said:

No, I'm not bored although I am just sitting here waiting for this plane to fly. I simply find it fascinating how people can get so wrapped around the axle on what is pretty much a theoretical, non-issue in reality. If you enjoy rambling on forever about stuff that obviously isn't going to change anything, have at it. That's the nature and purpose of forums like this, anyway. I was just trying to see if anyone had any concept of actual, real world reality in this discussion. It appears not.

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Plane will soon fly! Bye, Bye!!

Back to the lower temp issue. I do believe that the Cummings diesel will benefit from the change over with lower temperatures. I base that on the fact that in my boat, with all new coolant, thermostat and belts, hoses I ran it on Rotella most of a summer. The temps were constantly 180. I was having heating issues and seeing 190 when I ran it 1700 RPM so the new cooling system upgrade helped me bring it to the temps set by the thermostat.

As I mentioned before, I only changed to Delvac 1 on my port engine and on the next trip of three hours running at 1700 RPM I saw a steady 175 on the port engine.

I could be wrong, but I think a lower temp will happen after the change over. It did for me.

Capthead said:

Back to the lower temp issue. I do believe that the Cummings diesel will benefit from the change over with lower temperatures. I base that on the fact that in my boat, with all new coolant, thermostat and belts, hoses I ran it on Rotella most of a summer. The temps were constantly 180. I was having heating issues and seeing 190 when I ran it 1700 RPM so the new cooling system upgrade helped me bring it to the temps set by the thermostat.

As I mentioned before, I only changed to Delvac 1 on my port engine and on the next trip of three hours running at 1700 RPM I saw a steady 175 on the port engine.

I could be wrong, but I think a lower temp will happen after the change over. It did for me.

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There ya go Marin! Now, that proves there is even something that might even be of interest to you too in this thread! Thank Capthead for the post above, as well as being OP that began this interesting thread on internal engine-parts' lubricity product qualities and their various features.

Oh, and yes, zinc is a very important portion to all engine lubes... especially older diesels and gassers. Read up on it!

When are you guys gonna realize that diesels ARE SUPPOSED to run hot!

Not overheated but the hotter the better!!!!!!

If you have read any of the threads about underloading and idling...while not all true...running a diesel cold is not good for it....much better for it to be run at its DESIGNED temp...but never hotter than the upper limit...so why would I WANT to run my engine colder than what it should??????

If it runs colder maybe I do need to use syn as it does do a better job of removing the soot...maybe right after it helped create it...