Any Synthetic Oil Users Here?
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Nomad Willy
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Mike,
The properties that make a good cutting oil aren't necessarily the properties that make a good lube oil. I worked in a "Job Shop" (large) and half the machinists wouldn't go out on a field job w/o Marvel Mystery Oil. There are places that synthetic oil performs noticeably better than dino. Do you have after coolers on that Cummins?
Ya can't go wrong w Dello. I've gotten in the habbit of running Dello because it's the only oil that's universally available in Alaska. You can get Jabsco pump impellers and Dello regularly or often in grocery stores. And most of the commercial ventures I've been on had the stuff everywhere. I was going to use Shell Rotella but .....
The properties that make a good cutting oil aren't necessarily the properties that make a good lube oil. I worked in a "Job Shop" (large) and half the machinists wouldn't go out on a field job w/o Marvel Mystery Oil. There are places that synthetic oil performs noticeably better than dino. Do you have after coolers on that Cummins?
Ya can't go wrong w Dello. I've gotten in the habbit of running Dello because it's the only oil that's universally available in Alaska. You can get Jabsco pump impellers and Dello regularly or often in grocery stores. And most of the commercial ventures I've been on had the stuff everywhere. I was going to use Shell Rotella but .....
Nomad Willy
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Capnhead,
Marin's right it makes no sense ... it's a product of the fuel. But what if the compression was better w syn oil when cold? More complete combustion would tend to get the fuel burned and that would result in less sheen. I'm not say'in the compression will be better w syn oil ..... but if it was ?
Marin's right it makes no sense ... it's a product of the fuel. But what if the compression was better w syn oil when cold? More complete combustion would tend to get the fuel burned and that would result in less sheen. I'm not say'in the compression will be better w syn oil ..... but if it was ?
Codger2
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Sounds like my story. I started out as an apprentice in my brothers tool & die shop. We made injection molds for the medical industry. Did a lot of EDM work. (Also completely submerged in oil.)
I don't change my own oil either and my guy uses Delo. (That's about to change as I'm switching to synthetic.
)Maybe your observation coincided with warmer weather. But trust me, it ain't oil you're seeing back there unless your engine has a major problem and is blowing a bunch of oil out the exhaust in which case you would have a major smoke issue going on and continuing to go on after startup.
Assuming your engine is functioning properly I don't see how the difference between the correct grade of synthetic oil and the correct grade of conventional oil could have any effect whatsoever on the burn efficiency in the combustion chamber. What you're seeing on the water is unburned fuel from the too-cool combustion chambers after a cold startup.
My guess is that when you have observed this "reduced" fuel sheen behind your boat it had to do with water or wind or ambient temperature conditions on that day, not the kind of lube oil in the engine. Some days the sheen behind our two Lehmans after a cold startup is quite obvious, sometimes not so much, and sometimes we don't really see it at all. Depends on the variables I mentioned above.
Northern Spy
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Marin is right. The sheen is fuel. To tie this into the discussion, consider where else that fuel went. Where? It bypassed your cold rings and went into your crankcase, where it is now oxidizing, diluting, and acidifying your oil. Synthetics be damned, because it is now a function of your additive package. Good thing you change it regularly!
Northern Spy
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Oh gosh! Did I say that out loud?
No problem. We'll all pretend you didn't.
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Ron, it's not so much a magnet as positively charged oil molecules, which are then in turn attracted to the negatively charged engine metal, (the negative terminal of the batts are connected to the engine block, right), and then as friction and heat builds it becomes more negative, attracting the oil molecules that are positively charged to the metal surfaces even more strongly. Not all the oil has to be positively charged either, just a proportion, as they then link pos to neg forming chains. The effect is quite dramatic.
When Bitron sold a penetrating spray can like WD40, using this 'magnetic' principle, I decided to test it by useing it on the rather stiff sliding dors of my garden sheds, which had previously been sprayed often with WD40 and CRC, many times and they were still stiff, so it was a severe test.
I then forgot I had done this, not really expecting it to make the claimed difference, as I was fairly sceptical. A few days later I had occasion to go to that shed, and just used the usual fairly heavy amount of force to shove the doors back, and bugger me, they both shot to each end of their tracts so forcefully they slammed on the stops. I was sold on the idea from that day, and I used it in my vehicle until it was no longer available, killed off by Castrol adopting the science in their Magnatec, I suspect, because, as someone mentioned, they did not have it patented, because the patent lists the details of the science.
I now also use Magnatec Diesel in my L120 with no issues.
FF
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half the machinists wouldn't go out on a field job w/o Marvel Mystery Oil.
MMO is #1 off road diesel ( red died & untaxed ) with oil of wintergreen to change the smell.
MMO is #1 off road diesel ( red died & untaxed ) with oil of wintergreen to change the smell.
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Capthead
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This is getting funny. Now I'm told I don't know what I see and what I see isn't what I think.
It must be my Lying eyes....damn it!
I started boating in June of 1983. I was shown the proper steps by a seasoned boater on start up procedures and I have stuck with that ever since. After the engine fires up, I always go to the transom and watch the water. I watch the exhaust, I look at the flow, the color and it's not a glance. There is a lot to learn there. I have wet elbows, is the water flowing correctly. Is there rust or lack of flow. You get the picture.
I started this so I could talk to other synthetic users, not to convince anyone to use it. I get the picture. Nobody uses it and I am the lone wolf here.
Not a problem, I like this forum and I hope to find friends here.
It must be my Lying eyes....damn it!
I started boating in June of 1983. I was shown the proper steps by a seasoned boater on start up procedures and I have stuck with that ever since. After the engine fires up, I always go to the transom and watch the water. I watch the exhaust, I look at the flow, the color and it's not a glance. There is a lot to learn there. I have wet elbows, is the water flowing correctly. Is there rust or lack of flow. You get the picture.
I started this so I could talk to other synthetic users, not to convince anyone to use it. I get the picture. Nobody uses it and I am the lone wolf here.
Not a problem, I like this forum and I hope to find friends here.
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Capthead
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I never said the sheen was anything but fuel. I know the sheen is fuel. It can get there for many reasons and one of them is a lower compression causing an incomplete burn. That's why when the engine warns and the rings expand it lessens.
Codger2
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Not for long! One of the real joys I get out of boating is using my boat as a test bed for products that show promise. Synthetic oil is such a prodct and will be in SeaHorse by this time next year.
Nomad Willy
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"this time next year"?
Don't get in a rush Walt.
Don't get in a rush Walt.
This is getting funny. Now I'm told I don't know what I see and what I see isn't what I think.
It must be my Lying eyes....damn it!
I started boating in June of 1983. I was shown the proper steps by a seasoned boater on start up procedures and I have stuck with that ever since. After the engine fires up, I always go to the transom and watch the water. I watch the exhaust, I look at the flow, the color and it's not a glance. There is a lot to learn there. I have wet elbows, is the water flowing correctly. Is there rust or lack of flow. You get the picture.
I started this so I could talk to other synthetic users, not to convince anyone to use it. I get the picture. Nobody uses it and I am the lone wolf here.
Not a problem, I like this forum and I hope to find friends here.
Capthead! - Don't get too pouty because of some TF posters pushing back at cha... you're a great guy to throw items around with... as well as a boater who likes to push the “product-test” envelope, so to say. Especially, keep posting your input and experiences... cause we all have important things to learn from one another... even if a few won’t admit to that! LOL
BTW: Before this thread I was in no way planning to try syn oil. Now, mostly because of you, I very likely will. Still trying to figure out just which engine I will try it in; and, still doing dino – vs - syn research while I get ready to do my syn oil lube test. I will post here if/when I begin to perform this test and I will also post on what I feel become the results. Heck, as you already are, I too might become a syn oil advocate – and, then again, I may not. Ya just never know, I gotta keep them options open! lol
There are some (four I especially notice – two you can’t miss – one who is blatantly obvious) TF contributors who like to push back hard and at times even rather insultingly... pretty much on/against any occurrence or concept they don’t understand or maybe haven’t experienced. Each to their own... I pretty much ignore their little posting tantrums and at times throw a curve back at em, just to get em riled up so I can then remain silent and watch their ongoing, fuming posted reactions. To me, that’s part of the excitement and fun inside TF. We all need thick skins. This globally open-to-anyone boating forum has developed into a fairly close knit society of numerous often posting marine aficionados who believe we (myself included) might be so smart as to actually be able to circumvent the laws of physics – only kidding, kinda! LMAO!!
Now that you’ve gone through some of TF’s most active contributors’ version of “Hell Night” on this thread – Whada Ya Really Feel Bout Trawler Forum?? Upbeat I hope!
Happy Boating Daze!
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Capthead
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I love it!! What can I say? It's like a family reunion where the cousins aunts and uncles come from afar and push all the buttons.
Don't worry, I have thick skin, well not on my arms anyway.
Don't worry, I have thick skin, well not on my arms anyway.
I think you will find that the engineers at Northern Light/Lugger will disagree with your lower compression theory behind the unburned fuel from an older diesel when it's cold. At least they did when they described the whole situation to me. But you'll have to take that up with them.
Personally, my money's on them.
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Very simple. When it's cold the combustion chamber temperatures are not hot enough to ensure complete and even burning of the fuel that is being injected into the chambers As the combustion chamber temps come up the injected fuel burns more evenly and thoroughly until all the fuel is being burned (assuming good injector patterns and so forth) and no more unburned fuel goes out with the exhaust. At that point, no more sheen.
This is how it's been explained to me by every marine diesel professional I've talked to about this, including friends in the engineering department at Northern Lights/Lugger.
Our boat (2 FL120s) puts a significant sheen behind it when the engines are started, particularly in the winter. Within a few minutes of startup the sheen is completely gone. It's been this way for the last 14 years. And if the water's ruffled by wind or the light's not right the sheen can be pretty difficult to see.
This is how it's been explained to me by every marine diesel professional I've talked to about this, including friends in the engineering department at Northern Lights/Lugger.
Our boat (2 FL120s) puts a significant sheen behind it when the engines are started, particularly in the winter. Within a few minutes of startup the sheen is completely gone. It's been this way for the last 14 years. And if the water's ruffled by wind or the light's not right the sheen can be pretty difficult to see.
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Nomad Willy
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Marin I think I was the one that theorized that low compression was the cause of unburnt fuel and the sheen. Just groping for a reason.
Post #243. It's "very simple" until you factor in the synthetic oil. If that's the only apparent variable it dosn't mean another indirect variable can't bring about the change. What changes when the synthetic oil is introduced? Ther're probably are many changes most too in sequential to measure but several could be responsible for subtle changes like what Capthead observed. As soon as a change is made ther'e may not be but ther'e may and quite likely a domino effect of many changes so to write off the syn oil effect dosn't give much credit to the original poster or the scientific method. Now since the lack of compression causes the fuel sheen it seems to me that the syn oil just MAY have something to do w it. There are many Dino oil additives that are supposed to increase compression so do you think possibly syn could do that?
Post #243. It's "very simple" until you factor in the synthetic oil. If that's the only apparent variable it dosn't mean another indirect variable can't bring about the change. What changes when the synthetic oil is introduced? Ther're probably are many changes most too in sequential to measure but several could be responsible for subtle changes like what Capthead observed. As soon as a change is made ther'e may not be but ther'e may and quite likely a domino effect of many changes so to write off the syn oil effect dosn't give much credit to the original poster or the scientific method. Now since the lack of compression causes the fuel sheen it seems to me that the syn oil just MAY have something to do w it. There are many Dino oil additives that are supposed to increase compression so do you think possibly syn could do that?
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Eric - Good points.
Maybe we should commission an official blind test study!
Capthead and Marin boats do this blind test.
In unmarked containers (one dino and one syn - but no one knows which is which) they get to change their oil every 25 hrs of operation. Just before changing oil at all both boats do a cold start and careful 15 minute long videos are taken at the exhaust of each (in calm waters at high noon!). Then, after 100 hrs operation and four (4) oil changes with same unmarked oil containers there is another cold start with another careful 15 minute video. We compare first video to last video to see if sheen amounts have altered... then we reveal which boat was using what type oil, dino or syn.
Marin – you are a film expert... waada ya think??!!
Codger2
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Eric: I didn't read Marin's post as saying "lack of compression causes the fuel sheen." Rather, I read it as "not being up to full heat, (rings, cylinder walls, etc. not expanded fully...) causes a percentage of the fuel to be "not completely burned", thus causing it to escape via the exhaust and causing the sheen. My boat (and most others I know of, excepting the electronic engines, ) act exactly the same way.
What am I missing here?
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In the explanations I've been given by people in the marine diesel business for the fuel sheen on the water after a cold start NOBODY has ever said one word about compression or the lack thereof. ALL the explanations I've been given have related the sheen to unburned fuel going out the exhaust and the reason for the unburned fuel has been given as too low a temperature in the combustion chamber for complete and even burning of the fuel at first. A Ford Lehman 120 has no pre-heat, so things take a few minutes to warm up.
Our two-cylinder Onan MDJE diesel generator not only has a glow plug in each cylinder it has a pre-heater in the air intake. So things are hotter in the combustion chamber when it lights off and we have never observed a sheen on the water from unburned fuel in its exhaust. Not saying that some unburned fuel isn't going out the Onan's exhaust after a cold start, only that it's not enough to notice.
I think you guys are really reaching to relate the use of synthetic oil to a change in the compression ratio of the engine. But again, that's something you'll have to take up with the folks who design and manufacture diesel engines and so are well versed in this stuff.
Connecting the engine block to the battery terminal makes it negative with respect to the battery positive terminal. That is all. It's not negative with respect to anything else. Put one voltmeter lead on the engine block and leave the other disconnected. What do you read? Nothing, right? Leave the lead connected to the engine block but connect the other lead to the positive terminal of a flashlight batter. Don't connect the negative terminal of the flashlight battery to anything. again,What do you read? Nothing, right?
Nomad Willy
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Post 243 Marin.
Walt this is a "compression" engine. The heat caused by compression burns the fuel. BMEP ... pressure in the cylinder .. is caused by heat. The heat comes from the air being compressed. Also from the reduced volume caused by the upwards movement of the piston. Compressing the air in the cylinder raises the temp of the air hundreds of degrees. What percentage of heat is generated from each I don't know but there is a HUGE difference in starting performance w my cyl heaters on. The heat makes the difference.
Now if there was more compression from synthetic oil more heat would be generated from more compression and more complete combustion would take place. But I have no idea if syn oil would create more compression.
"What am I missing here?" Nothing except that a different oil may cause more compression, more heat and more complete combustion ... and less sheen.
Art,
Who really cares that much? I don't. I'm going to continue to run 30W dino oil and changing it almost twice as often and the filter a little bit less often. In mid-summer I will switch to 40W and I'll almost continue to use RPM Dello.
Walt this is a "compression" engine. The heat caused by compression burns the fuel. BMEP ... pressure in the cylinder .. is caused by heat. The heat comes from the air being compressed. Also from the reduced volume caused by the upwards movement of the piston. Compressing the air in the cylinder raises the temp of the air hundreds of degrees. What percentage of heat is generated from each I don't know but there is a HUGE difference in starting performance w my cyl heaters on. The heat makes the difference.
Now if there was more compression from synthetic oil more heat would be generated from more compression and more complete combustion would take place. But I have no idea if syn oil would create more compression.
"What am I missing here?" Nothing except that a different oil may cause more compression, more heat and more complete combustion ... and less sheen.
Art,
Who really cares that much? I don't. I'm going to continue to run 30W dino oil and changing it almost twice as often and the filter a little bit less often. In mid-summer I will switch to 40W and I'll almost continue to use RPM Dello.
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Codger2
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Eric: I know how a diesel ignites the fuel! When I was an apprentice tool maker, one of the projects we had to build was a single cylinder bore and piston. The ID of the bore was ground & honed (absolutely no taper.) The piston was also ground (centerless grinder) to 1/2 -1 thousandths of an inch smaller than the bore's ID. The test the shop owner used was to put a small scrap of newspaper in the bottom of the bore, carefully insert the cylinder until it bounced on the compressed air, then hit it with a hammer. After extracting the cylinder, if the paper was charred black, we passed!
I know how a diesel works!
(Whew!)
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I don't think the engine manufacturers would be real thrilled if their designed engine compression could vary all over the map willy-nilly because of the kind of lube oil being used.
Personally, I think this "varying compression" due to the kind of oil (assuming the correct grade of oil for the engine is being used, conventional or synthetic), is total armchair theory with no basis whatsoever in fact.
If oil made that much of a difference to compression and hence to performance and proper running, the engine people would be specifying EXACTLY what kind of oil to put in their engines. Down to the brand, composition, etc., etc., etc. But in my experience, they aren't all that picky as long as you use oil that meets their basic specs.
The only ones who seem to be picky are the makers of new engines that require the use of synthetics or you can kiss the warranty goodbye. But the fact that a Lehman 120 seems to do just fine on single weight, multi-vis, conventional and, apparently, synthetic oil tells me that the compression ratio of the engine is just not going to wander around enough to make any difference.
As Eric says, pre-heat makes a world of difference to the starting efficiency of his engine. Lehmans don't have pre-heat. So they start cold, fart a bunch of unburned fuel out the exhaust into the water for a bit, and then once they heat up to where they should be, no more unburned fuel being farted out into the water, no more sheen. If they had a pre-heat system on them they would probably fart a whole lot less unburned fuel into the water.
Seems dirt simple to me.
Personally, I think this "varying compression" due to the kind of oil (assuming the correct grade of oil for the engine is being used, conventional or synthetic), is total armchair theory with no basis whatsoever in fact.
If oil made that much of a difference to compression and hence to performance and proper running, the engine people would be specifying EXACTLY what kind of oil to put in their engines. Down to the brand, composition, etc., etc., etc. But in my experience, they aren't all that picky as long as you use oil that meets their basic specs.
The only ones who seem to be picky are the makers of new engines that require the use of synthetics or you can kiss the warranty goodbye. But the fact that a Lehman 120 seems to do just fine on single weight, multi-vis, conventional and, apparently, synthetic oil tells me that the compression ratio of the engine is just not going to wander around enough to make any difference.
As Eric says, pre-heat makes a world of difference to the starting efficiency of his engine. Lehmans don't have pre-heat. So they start cold, fart a bunch of unburned fuel out the exhaust into the water for a bit, and then once they heat up to where they should be, no more unburned fuel being farted out into the water, no more sheen. If they had a pre-heat system on them they would probably fart a whole lot less unburned fuel into the water.
Seems dirt simple to me.
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