Any Synthetic Oil Users Here?

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Capthead said:
I know everybody is saying longevity isn't proven, but the bare fact that the Lincoln engine Ford tore down with 100,000 miles on it still had visible hone marks in the cylinder walls and didn't show more than the 500 miles on dino oil, that speaks to me. I don't know why others can't see that as a positive.
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That spoke to me too Capthead; and, I semi-recall of hearing/reading about that same type of quote - back in the day! :thumb:

What I don't understand: If that was true back in the 70's, and syn oil improvements have been made since - WHY is there not a plethora of engineering and successful accountings of syn oil usage in all forms of periodicals, on the net, on YouTube, touted by motor manufacturers and on and on and on. Guess what I'm saying is if synthetic oil is such a great improvement over dino oil why is that fact not plastered all over the place?? Is there (are there) some "hidden" down side(s) simply not spoken of (besides initial product expense - which equalizes out once extrapolated alongside other long-term costs that are clamed reduced by using syn oil)?

I'd love to use a new type of oil that increases (maybe doubles/triples) the life of my classic, flat tappet gassers, however, there is just not enough engineered proof and product accountability yet available to make me turn away from high quality dino oil and 4oz ZPPD zinc additive I include at each oil change (can zinc be added to syn oil?). The Lincoln owner in 1970's article and some private boat/land-vehicle users/owners are the accountings I read. Basically - Where's the Beef?? I.e., officially documented and proven blind test studies worked with a myriad of participating engine types under the pressure of myriad different circumstances. I need use-proven laboratory reports before I take the chance with my classic engines. To hear it from users... in their opinion syn oil should rule the world of lubrication. From a post earlier in this thread syn oil only holds 6% of U.S. market with just 30% of that 6% for commercial use. The numbers just don’t add up after 4 + decades of syn oil in existence. Again, Where’s The Beef?? :confused:
 
That is a quality question. I wish I had an answer.
 
A quick side bar note;
A boater a few slips away from me in the late 90's worked at the Union 76 refinery that's a few miles from my marina. One day we were talking and he said his biggest customer was WD40. He said they bought all their oil from him and it was their regular 10W lubricating oil. He said they added the perfume to give it that smell and canned it. He said their legal depart net spent 100's of grand yearly chasing after companies worldwide that tried to copy that smell. He said they were always successful but the main ingredient was the oil he sold them.
 
15+% mineral oil (light lubricating oil)

Mineral oil, as you know, is dino oil. It comes from the ground in a layer of mineral rock.
 
Art said:
That spoke to me too Capthead; and, I semi-recall of hearing/reading about that same type of quote - back in the day! :thumb:

What I don't understand: If that was true back in the 70's, and syn oil improvements have been made since - WHY is there not a plethora of engineering and successful accountings of syn oil usage in all forms of periodicals, on the net, on YouTube, touted by motor manufacturers and on and on and on. Guess what I'm saying is if synthetic oil is such a great improvement over dino oil why is that fact not plastered all over the place?? Is there (are there) some "hidden" down side(s) simply not spoken of (besides initial product expense - which equalizes out once extrapolated alongside other long-term costs that are clamed reduced by using syn oil)?

I'd love to use a new type of oil that increases (maybe doubles/triples) the life of my classic, flat tappet gassers, however, there is just not enough engineered proof and product accountability yet available to make me turn away from high quality dino oil and 4oz ZPPD zinc additive I include at each oil change (can zinc be added to syn oil?). The Lincoln owner in 1970's article and some private boat/land-vehicle users/owners are the accountings I read. Basically - Where's the Beef?? I.e., officially documented and proven blind test studies worked with a myriad of participating engine types under the pressure of myriad different circumstances. I need use-proven laboratory reports before I take the chance with my classic engines. To hear it from users... in their opinion syn oil should rule the world of lubrication. From a post earlier in this thread syn oil only holds 6% of U.S. market with just 30% of that 6% for commercial use. The numbers just don’t add up after 4 + decades of syn oil in existence. Again, Where’s The Beef?? :confused:
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]well as a matter of fact I had in my possession records from a trucking company that was listed on the new York stock exchange that switched over part of there fleet to test syn oils. They used syn in all the transmissions gear cases as well as the engine. All I remember is that mechanical repairs went to almost zero in the test fleet and service costs went down due to lengthened service intervals for transmissions and differentials. The company then switched the whole fleet and the first year saved enough money the to buy several new trucks.
But like someone mentioned the engines in our boat are likely to last longer than we are with regular service with any quality oil, not just syn. I personally wouldn't use any oil that wasn't syn 100%

Gonna look for that old testimonial from the above trucking company and will post it if I can find it. However I'm not sure the data would mean anything if applied to old flat tappet engines as they are built with far greater tolerences than modern engines like our lehmans:)
[/FONT]
 
Capthead said:
I do know the synthetic has a long chain molecule as all reports show that and one end is a magnet and when it coats the metal block, it sticks there ...........
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I guess it wouldn't work on aluminum ?

I have a hard time thinking of oil as being magnetic.
 
bfloyd4445 said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]well as a matter of fact I had in my possession records from a trucking company that was listed on the new York stock exchange that switched over part of there fleet to test syn oils. They used syn in all the transmissions gear cases as well as the engine. All I remember is that mechanical repairs went to almost zero in the test fleet and service costs went down due to lengthened service intervals for transmissions and differentials. The company then switched the whole fleet and the first year saved enough money the to buy several new trucks.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But like someone mentioned the engines in our boat are likely to last longer than we are with regular service with any quality oil, not just syn. I personally wouldn't use any oil that wasn't syn 100%[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gonna look for that old testimonial from the above trucking company and will post it if I can find it. However I'm not sure the data would mean anything if applied to old flat tappet engines as they are built with far greater tolerences than modern engines like our lehmans:)[/FONT]
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I hope you do find the testimonial/records from trucking co. I'd like to read it.

Wonder why if that trucking company had such great success with syn oil that syn oil use didn't spread like wildfire throughout the trucking industry?? They just keeping it quiet so $$ savings stayed in their favor... ??

What year are your Lehmans? My classic gassers run from 1967 to approx 1989, all with flat tappets (non roller bearing lifters)
 
rwidman said:
I was forced to give up alcohol for medical reasons. There certainly can be life without beer. Pretty good life actually.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The truth is we would all be better off health wise without the stuff but it does taste so good at times.
I had a fishing buddy that said the same thing as you about drinking. He was an interesting guy. Came out here from the south penniless and soon became a prominent restaurateur. I met him when he retired and he said he stopped for medical reasons. I asked him one day what he meant by medical reasons and he said, ' why the boys in white hoods made me see the light". What do you mean I asked?. Well, when I was a kid I was liking the ladies a lot, white black made no difference they were all good in my book. I was also a bit of a trouble maker. One night I was jerked outa bed and dragged to a tree were a noose was placed around my neck the end then thrown over a branch on the big oak tree in my front yard and pulled up tight. I thought the end had arrived as I watched those boys in white robes surrounding me. I silently prayed to the lord to please save me and I would promise to change my ways forever. Then the robed leader smacked me hard with his fist and said that if I didn't change my ways, and leave the white girls alone that the next time they paid me a visit I would find myself dangling from that oak tree. They then cut me down and disappeared into the night. I asked him" what did you do then?", he replied, I was scared sh...less, I left that night never to return to the south. I came out to California and started a new life a changed man. No more girls, booze, or any other shenanigans just work....Hummm...how is this a medical reason I asked? Well he said, them boys in robes saved my life cause the way I was going I would have soon been dead if I didn't change my ways, I owe my life to them.

[/FONT]
 
Art said:
I hope you do find the testimonial/records from trucking co. I'd like to read it.



Wonder why if that trucking company had such great success with syn oil that syn oil use didn't spread like wildfire throughout the trucking industry?? They just keeping it quiet so $$ savings stayed in their favor... ??

What year are your Lehmans? My classic gassers run from 1967 to approx 1989, all with flat tappets (non roller bearing lifters)
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Ditto!!
 
Capthead said:
Ditto!!
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Ahh...that was just one company. In order to meet the criteria of a true scientific investigation you would need several different companies to perform the same experiment before drawing any conclusions. I only have in my files the one companies experience. As previously stated I will publish that statement, if I still have the study in my files, for your scrutiny
 
Food for thought, Lets look @ a lehman 120, vs a Kohler 8KW gen , both very popular on trawlers The ford holds 3 gals of oil, has a sea water oil cooler is 16 to 1 compression and is very often run @ 1800 RPM. The kohler holds 4.5 qts of oil has no oil cooler and is 24 to 1 compression and runs @ 1800 RPM, If I were to run synth it would be in the kohler not the ford, In my opinion in the kohler it would be cost effective.
 
Yep, the non verbal response of the year.(mind you, it's only March)

"Now that's funny and very creative without actually saying what you were thinking."
__________________
Walt
 
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Art said:
I pour in 4oz ZDDP with each oil change and pour in another 4oz ZDDP in mid-time between oil change. Extra zinc in the lube oil is one of my classic engines' best friends!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Art said:
Yup! Happily so tooooo today! Did diesel years agoooo... :facepalm:
*
BTW: Base oil I use in my land and marine gassers is Valvoline HD Diesel dino oil w/ZDDP 4oz added at reach change and at 1/2 way between change schedule. Extra zinc is my classic gas engines' best friend! :thumb:
*
I understand ZDDP id good for diesel too. *Just don't use with catalytic converts - ruins em!
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Yes, zinc depreciates fast. In a automotive engine over half gone at perscribed oil change periodicity, but drops off fast after that.

One of the main reasons to change oil at a regular interval. I realize you are a gasser, Art, but lest anyone think that additives are a good thing (I don't think so) for engine oils here is some food for thought for the diesel crowd; adding ZDDP instead of changing you oil is worse.

Combustion generated soot in the crankcase of diesel engines in the presence of ZDDP can significantly increase engine wear surfaces. Deterioration of diesel engine oils has been known to promote considerable wear of engine parts through the process of preferential adsorption of ZDDP by soot, thus retarding the formation of wear-preventing films and wear rate increase. It is also possible that some large aggregates of soot intrude into gaps between sliding surfaces and cause abrasion (Hirose et al., 1985; Kawamura et al., 1988; Rounds, 1977 and 1986). In contrast, with gasoline engine oils, it is believed that this deterioration does not have significant effect on their wear-preventing property (Fujita et al., 1983; Kawamura et al., 1982 and 1985); however, used gasoline oils containing hydroperoxides can cause significant cam lobe wear (Habeeb and Stover, 1987; Habeeb et al., 1987; Hsu et al., 1988; West et al., 1986). The oil is periodically replaced to perform its intended functions effectively and to sustain reliability of the components and system. This activity is carried out as a part of preventive maintenance as per the manufacturer's recommendation. The oil change frequency is a function of various factors including operating and environmental conditions, and maintenance practices.


Pawlak, Zenon. Tribology and Interface Engineering, Volume 45 : Tribochemistry of Lubricating Oils.
Kidlington, GBR: Elsevier Science & Technology, 2003. p 45.
 
Capthead said:
Please show me testing to prove, loss of internal rust resistance of syn
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Capthead said:
I do know the synthetic has a long chain molecule as all reports show that and one end is a magnet and when it coats the metal block, it sticks there so I have to be shown that corrosion could happen. I know I get rust on anything I sprayed with WD40 after a small amount of time. That doesn't last.
The middle of that chain is a strong binder and the end is super slick. That is the makeup of a synthetic oil molecule.
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Poly((x-olefms) or PAOs, polyol esters and diesters are used in automotive and marine engine oils. To understand how an ester lubricates, it is important to consider its behavior in the different lubrication regimes, especially boundary lubrication when the properties of the bulk lubricant (e.g. viscosity) are of minor importance. The chemical properties of the lubricant responses under extreme conditions will become increasingly important. The polar ester will preferentially stick to the surface of metal when a small amount of ester is added to a low viscosity nonpolar fluid (PAO), (Randies, 1999; Spikes, 1999). When the two metal surfaces come closer together, the polar ester molecules stay in the contact zone.

Since ester groups are polar, may compete at the metal surface with any polar additive (corrosion inhibitors or antiwear agents).

Pawlak, Zenon. Tribology and Interface Engineering, Volume 45 : Tribochemistry of Lubricating Oils.
Kidlington, GBR: Elsevier Science & Technology, 2003.
 
Northern Spy said:
Yes, zinc depreciates fast. In a automotive engine over half gone at perscribed oil change periodicity, but drops off fast after that.

One of the main reasons to change oil at a regular interval. I realize you are a gasser, Art, but lest anyone think that additives are a good thing (I don't think so) for engine oils here is some food for thought for the diesel crowd; adding ZDDP instead of changing you oil is worse.

Combustion generated soot in the crankcase of diesel engines in the presence of ZDDP can significantly increase engine wear surfaces. Deterioration of diesel engine oils has been known to promote considerable wear of engine parts through the process of preferential adsorption of ZDDP by soot, thus retarding the formation of wear-preventing films and wear rate increase. It is also possible that some large aggregates of soot intrude into gaps between sliding surfaces and cause abrasion (Hirose et al., 1985; Kawamura et al., 1988; Rounds, 1977 and 1986). In contrast, with gasoline engine oils, it is believed that this deterioration does not have significant effect on their wear-preventing property (Fujita et al., 1983; Kawamura et al., 1982 and 1985); however, used gasoline oils containing hydroperoxides can cause significant cam lobe wear (Habeeb and Stover, 1987; Habeeb et al., 1987; Hsu et al., 1988; West et al., 1986). The oil is periodically replaced to perform its intended functions effectively and to sustain reliability of the components and system. This activity is carried out as a part of preventive maintenance as per the manufacturer's recommendation. The oil change frequency is a function of various factors including operating and environmental conditions, and maintenance practices.


Pawlak, Zenon. Tribology and Interface Engineering, Volume 45 : Tribochemistry of Lubricating Oils.
Kidlington, GBR: Elsevier Science & Technology, 2003. p 45.
Click to expand...


I agree 10x.... Be very aware what chemicels you dump in oil and fuel, there is more snake oil than snakes in todays market.
 
Northern Spy said:
Yes, zinc depreciates fast. In a automotive engine over half gone at perscribed oil change periodicity, but drops off fast after that.

One of the main reasons to change oil at a regular interval. I realize you are a gasser, Art, but lest anyone think that additives are a good thing (I don't think so) for engine oils here is some food for thought for the diesel crowd; adding ZDDP instead of changing you oil is worse.

Combustion generated soot in the crankcase of diesel engines in the presence of ZDDP can significantly increase engine wear surfaces. Deterioration of diesel engine oils has been known to promote considerable wear of engine parts through the process of preferential adsorption of ZDDP by soot, thus retarding the formation of wear-preventing films and wear rate increase. It is also possible that some large aggregates of soot intrude into gaps between sliding surfaces and cause abrasion (Hirose et al., 1985; Kawamura et al., 1988; Rounds, 1977 and 1986). In contrast, with gasoline engine oils, it is believed that this deterioration does not have significant effect on their wear-preventing property (Fujita et al., 1983; Kawamura et al., 1982 and 1985); however, used gasoline oils containing hydroperoxides can cause significant cam lobe wear (Habeeb and Stover, 1987; Habeeb et al., 1987; Hsu et al., 1988; West et al., 1986). The oil is periodically replaced to perform its intended functions effectively and to sustain reliability of the components and system. This activity is carried out as a part of preventive maintenance as per the manufacturer's recommendation. The oil change frequency is a function of various factors including operating and environmental conditions, and maintenance practices.


Pawlak, Zenon. Tribology and Interface Engineering, Volume 45 : Tribochemistry of Lubricating Oils.
Kidlington, GBR: Elsevier Science & Technology, 2003. p 45.
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NS - Besides the cautions you give to diesel owners in post above... Am I understanding correctly that you recommend not using zinc additive (i.e. ZDDP) in gasoline engines while also using HD Valvoline Diesel dino oil? Which is the lube combination I've for years been placing into my classic flat tappet V8s. I listen closely to all opinions and yours are top rank position. My ears are piqued! ;)

BTW: All my classic gasoline engines (4 of them - 1967 to 1989) are in VG condition and each has its oil remain considerably clean between changes. Of course the carbon (soot) developed in diesels is minimized in gassers - is it not?
 
"there is more snake oil than snakes"

Craig S ..... That's a good one.
 
Art said:
NS - Besides the cautions you give to diesel owners in post above... Am I understanding correctly that you recommend not using zinc additive (i.e. ZDDP) in gasoline engines while also using HD Valvoline Diesel dino oil? Which is the lube combination I've for years been placing into my classic flat tappet V8s. I listen closely to all opinions and yours are top rank position. My ears are piqued! ;)

BTW: All my classic gasoline engines (4 of them - 1967 to 1989) are in VG condition and each has its oil remain considerably clean between changes. Of course the carbon (soot) developed in diesels is minimized in gassers - is it not?
Click to expand...

Honestly, my recommendations aren't worth a heck of a lot, I just pulled out some ebooks at lunch today and copied and pasted a handful of items to add to the discussion.

That said it would seem that adding zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) MAY make sense if you have regions of boundary lubrication such as a tappet valve train, AND it is a gas engine. But it already has it in there, why do you need to add more? Just change the oil regularly.

I have seen zinc precipitate out of lube oil on a dryer section of a paper machine because the oil vendor suggested that a flush was unnecessary as the new brand Y oil was supposedly compatible with the old brand X oil. It was 3/16" thick and on all vertical as well as horizontal surfaces. I wish I had the pictures with me. Too much zinc will form sludge.

Lubrication regimes in industry are specific to the equipment and the conditions. Pour in additives are rarely used as you don't really know what the end electro-chemical effect is. Oil analysis typically is found to be cost effective for equipment with large sumps, or known problems that you are monitoring. Synthetics are limited to high heat, or specialized equipment. Otherwise, we use good quality oil with the proper pre-blended additives for the job, and change it periodically.

Industry runs 24 hrs a day. 4,000 hours, which sounds like a lot, isn't even 6 months run time.

I will use synthetic lube in my marine gear when it has sufficiently set a tooth pattern.
 
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Northern Spy said:
Honestly, my recommendations aren't worth a heck of a lot, I just pulled out some ebooks at lunch today and copied and pasted a handful of items to add to the discussion.

That said it would seem that adding zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) MAY make sense if you have regions of boundary lubrication such as a tappet valve train, AND it is a gas engine. But it already has it in there, why do you need to add more? Just change the oil regularly.

I have seen zinc precipitate out of lube oil on a dryer section of a paper machine because the oil vendor suggested that a flush was unnecessary as the new brand Y oil was supposedly compatible with the old brand X oil. It was 3/16" thick and on all vertical as well as horizontal surfaces. I wish I had the pictures with me. Too much zinc will form sludge.

Lubrication regimes in industry are specific to the equipment and the conditions. Pour in additives are rarely used as you don't really know what the end electro-chemical effect is. Oil analysis typically is found to be cost effective for equipment with large sumps, or known problems that you are monitoring. Synthetics are limited to high heat, or specialized equipment. Otherwise, we use good quality oil with the proper pre-blended additives for the job, and change it periodically.

Industry runs 24 hrs a day. 4,000 hours, which sounds like a lot, isn't even 6 months run time.

I will use synthetic lube in my marine gear when it has sufficiently set a tooth pattern.
Click to expand...


Many small volvo gears use a sliding cone and shoe set up not multi wet disc, Check for fluid compatibility.
 
Northern Spy said:
Honestly, my recommendations aren't worth a heck of a lot, I just pulled out some ebooks at lunch today and copied and pasted a handful of items to add to the discussion.

That said it would seem that adding zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) MAY make sense if you have regions of boundary lubrication such as a tappet valve train, AND it is a gas engine. But it already has it in there, why do you need to add more? Just change the oil regularly.
Click to expand...

From much I have read and what good mechanics I know tell me: Zinc content in gas motor oils has been greatly reduced due to ever tightening EPA requirements and newer engines’ roller bearing lifter bottoms reducing need for a zinc-barrier in oil. Classic engines (pre mid 90s) having flat bottom lifters (tappets) really need zinc in the lube barrier to fully separate cam lobes from tappet (lifter) bottoms. Otherwise the lobes are prematurely flattening and tappet bottoms are cupping toward eventual wear out. These mechanics are often rebuilding old classics due to that failure point of metal contact, wherein lube oil with too little zinc in it was used for too many miles. ZDDP is best zinc additive I've found. And, I use HD Valvoline Diesel dino oil in all my classic V8s because it too has better zinc %age than than gasoline engine motor oils. :thumb:
 
Craig Schreck said:
Food for thought, Lets look @ a lehman 120, vs a Kohler 8KW gen , both very popular on trawlers The ford holds 3 gals of oil, has a sea water oil cooler is 16 to 1 compression and is very often run @ 1800 RPM. The kohler holds 4.5 qts of oil has no oil cooler and is 24 to 1 compression and runs @ 1800 RPM, If I were to run synth it would be in the kohler not the ford, In my opinion in the kohler it would be cost effective.
Click to expand...

good point. At least as far as saving oil money goes on the Lehman.

Personally I would rather put the best oil money can buy in any engine that my life may depend upon. I think of the extra cost as cheap insurance. I mentioned in an earlier post of my experience with a tractor I unintentionally drove for a good half mile without a drop of oil in the crankcase. I also have no idea how long I had been brush hogging without oil before I noticed the oil light and then drove back to the barn. This was in a 1975 ford tractor and took place several years ago, That same tractor is still running like new and is used extensively each year. I doubt it would have survived if it had had conventional oil in the crank case.
I figure the synthetic oil saved me the price of a tear down and rebuild and that savings alone will pay for lots of oil changes.
 
If you keep regular dino oil in the crancase...maybe they last just as long....:D
 
There has been so much improvement in conventional oils that a strict change interval and good filters will most likely be comparable to synthetic use as far as our boat engines go but for me I'm sticking to synthetic.

I think all the years with the older oil that was used in the engine had it so carboned up that it wasn't holding the compression and that extra blow by was causing oil loss and adding to the break down of that oil.

I have no way to prove it and I never took photographic records, which I should have, but seeing the vastly decreased start up smoke and sheen on the water makes me believe that the synthetic cleaned out the carbon and the lubricity is sealing the cylinder walls to rings better.

Is it going to make these engines last longer? I think so, but here in CA they could start a campaign to change out all these old diesels in pleasure boats like they did to the commercial fishermen. If that happens, they're gone anyway.
 
The sheen on the water has zip all to do with your oil. It is unburned fuel. Old generation diesels, like Lehmans, are relatively unsophisticated. As such, when they are cold they cannot burn all the fuel that is fed to them so the unburned fuel goes out the exhaust and is what creates the sheen behind your boat while the engine is warming up.

Assuming the injectors are good and so on, the sheen will go away as the combustion chambers get up to temperature. The sheen will also be greater in cooler weather than in warmer weather as the engine itself will be colder when it starts.

A good friend who for decades was the head of the engineering department at Alaska Diesel Electric aka Northern Lights/Lugger told me that eliminating the excess of unburned fuel when a diesel is cold is one of the hardest things to deal with in an engine, but environmental regulations required it. As he explained it, this is one of the things that hastened the development of electronically controlled diesels.

But with a Lehman and other similar old engines it's just the nature of the beast. And it's got nothing to do with oil.
 
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Warning - this post may be totally irrelevant.

I own half of a CNC machining shop. We make hundreds of parts for military aircraft a month.

About seven years ago a supplier came by our shop and gave us free synthetic coolant for two of our 5 machines. Try it, you’ll like it was his pitch. We were using a conventional oil based coolant at the time.

So we did. Parts made on our machines are done almost totally submerged. It didn’t take long to realize the tools were running cooler and lasting longer on those two machines than on the other 3. The finish on the parts was also better.

So we switched over.

Does this have any relevance for a diesel owner? I have no idea, as I’m not a mechanic. I don’t even change my own oil - I leave that to the mechanics.

What do I use in my Cummins 6bt? Dello because that’s what the installing dealer recommends.

Mike
 
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