Any Synthetic Oil Users Here?

FF said:

3. For the longest service life usually a block heater will allow oil to the surfaces fast enough on most "cold" starts.

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I had block heaters on my 8V92 DDECs and they made all the difference in the world on cold starts.

They have plug ins on the parking meters in Fairbanks AK for your block heater. They aren't for the fussy stuff we've been talk'in about though. They are there so the car WILL START. And w/o the plug in they won't start.

In the gold mine I worked at when 19 in western AK they built small fires under the D8 cats to start them. They had a "pony motor" (2 cyl gas engine) that pumped exhaust gas and it's coolant into the big Cat engine to pre-heat.

Some more thoughts on pre lubing & dry starts, To start.... ALL engines are different, some engines bleed down oil very slow wile some fast, In the last 35 years I have rebuild over 200 diesel engines and a few propane and gas, We test run every single one in the shop before we install, Every engine builder I know < and I know a few > Pre lubes on engine assembly and on start up. Now here is some things I picked up over time, If your engine sits for over a week, start it wile observing the oil pressure gauge, If the gauge rises fast than it may not warrant pre lubing or the sending unit may be close to the oil pump ?... all engines are different.... how fast dose the engine start?? If it takes 10 seconds to fire off then you have already pre lubed to a point, Pre lubing on the starter is not a perfect solution but it has some advantages, You wil still have the compression loads on the crank & rod bearings but that is far less than the load when the cylinder fires.The valve train only sees the load from spring pressure & only turns @ 1/2 engine speed so getting oil up there fast is not as important. On some engines the engine has to turn to align certain oil passages for oil to flow < Thats something they dont tell you with the pre lube kits > so you can spend some hard earned American bucks on a waste of time, Old engines with worn bearing, clearances will benefit more from pre lubing... why? Engine bearing material will eventually have some hard trash imbeded in them that's part of its job, On a dry start the firing load will cause trash to score or cut the crank pin journal deeper than just a compression load, That could very well be the difference in having to purchase or weld a crank on a rebuild rather than just polish or have it cut. Now for the save the starter motor crowd and that's all for that. Remember you don't have to pre lube every time you start your diesel, just after its been sitting some and if you have a single screw trawler... unless you think that you can pill start it a spare starter may be a good idea, that all for now , just ran out of coffee

Many years ago there was a thread on the GBWoodies forum and the owner of a large marina in the Seattle area commented about the owners and how they cared for their boats by coming down weekly and starting their engines, bringing them up to temp and shutting them off vs. those who lived in Chicago and other cities East and only came out once a year for their two week vacation.

He commented there was no difference he could see in the life of the engines and that was over a 40 year period he owned that marina.

Another point. Why buy a pre lube system or burn up your starter when I have two points that were made long ago?
1, synthetic oils stick to the metal. No pre lube needed.
2. Prolong is a positive charged conventional oil that sticks to all metal and therefore no pre lube needed if you use conventional oils?

I think the fix is easy for either oil choice.

Capthead said:

Many years ago there was a thread on the GBWoodies forum and the owner of a large marina in the Seattle area commented about the owners and how they cared for their boats by coming down weekly and starting their engines, bringing them up to temp and shutting them off vs. those who lived in Chicago and other cities East and only came out once a year for their two week vacation.

He commented there was no difference he could see in the life of the engines and that was over a 40 year period he owned that marina.

Another point. Why buy a pre lube system or burn up your starter when I have two points that were made long ago?
1, synthetic oils stick to the metal. No pre lube needed.
2. Prolong is a positive charged conventional oil that sticks to all metal and therefore no pre lube needed if you use conventional oils?

I think the fix is easy for either oil choice.

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Look out... I have another rule There are lots of products you can purchase to dump into fuel or oil... The real ones will have a Mill Spec # or a OEM endorsement or recommendation... That means its been tested and approved for fleet use by a third party lab. As for the rest of the stuff your on your own. I am very surprised that no one has mentioned the reduction or lack of zinc in popular diesel oils... that's a real hot topic on the SAE forums and news letters. As you can see I found more coffee

Northern Spy said:

Yup. I would agree that is the case for most of the people on this forum. Same goes with the use of synthetic oil.

Hard to make a valid business case for either.

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Thus: "immitation - pre lube", i.e. uyilizing starter power only... and using/often-changing good dino oil is "Da Way Ta Go"!

Least that's how I read/see it!

Craig Schreck said:

Look out... I have another rule There are lots of products you can purchase to dump into fuel or oil... The real ones will have a Mill Spec # or a OEM endorsement or recommendation... That means its been tested and approved for fleet use by a third party lab. As for the rest of the stuff your on your own. I am very surprised that no one has mentioned the reduction or lack of zinc in popular diesel oils... that's a real hot topic on the SAE forums and news letters. As you can see I found more coffee

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I pour in 4oz ZDDP with each oil change and pour in another 4oz ZDDP in mid-time between oil change. Extra zinc in the lube oil is one of my classic engines' best friends!!

Art said:

I pour in 4oz ZDDP with each oil change and pour in another 4oz ZDDP in mid-time between oil change. Extra zinc in the lube oil is one of my classic engines' best friends!!

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You are a gasser though, right?

Tom.B said:

You are a gasser though, right?

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Yup! Happily so tooooo today! Did diesel years agoooo...

BTW: Base oil I use in my land and marine gassers is Valvoline HD Diesel dino oil w/ZDDP 4oz added at reach change and at 1/2 way between change schedule. Extra zinc is my classic gas engines' best friend!

I understand ZDDP id good for diesel too. Just don't use with catalytic converts - ruins em!

Art,
I'm quite sure NAPA oil is Valvoline. I used that when in Alaska when I didn't use Castrol GTX. I use Castrol a lot as a carry over from motorcycling days. I read a test/article on oils in a motorcycle magazine and the Castrol scored right under the synthetics. This test was done w racing motorcycles running at racing speeds w very high temps. Must have been a good additive package. I never did run synthetic in my motorcycles.

Northern Spy said:

A diesel engine is a fairly difficult lubrication application, mainly because of the fuel and soot loading. Good oils will use TAN boosters to alleviate the acidity of the partially burnt acidic fuel, dispersants and detergents for soot control, and antioxidants for high temperature and longevity. The base oil is nearly irrelevant for the application. Use a great quality petroleum base oil with a high VI and change your oil and filter often.

PS: I like synthetics, just not for this application.

PPS: The synthetic oil used in aero-derivative gas turbines is typically an organic ester due to high contact temperatures. Completely different animal. Frame gas turbines and steam turbines often run regular hydro cracked petroleum base oil.

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??? ...... they are superior to conventional oils even though conventional oil has improved the last few years and don't create the sludge so why not syn oil for marine use? Hard to find any data that dosent indicate the superiority of synthetic oil. Without base oil no lubricity and synthetic oil is again superior in this respect to conventional oil right? The only aspect of conventional oil I can find that is far better than syn is the price......what am I missing?

bfloyd4445 said:

??? ...... they are superior to conventional oils even though conventional oil has improved the last few years and don't create the sludge so why not syn oil for marine use? Hard to find any data that dosent indicate the superiority of synthetic oil. Without base oil no lubricity and synthetic oil is again superior in this respect to conventional oil right? The only aspect of conventional oil I can find that is far better than syn is the price......what am I missing?

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Why isn't price good enough?

This whole discussion has amounted to....

If I drink cranberry juice ($5 a gallon) I'll live to be 105.

If I drink bottled water ($1 a gallon)...I'll live to 100

Assuming that I don't die of a million other things before I even reach 95...

So is it gonna matter what I drink????/

Actually Floyd it's even better (or worse depending on how you look at it) than the cranberry juice example.

Your boat engine will last so much longer than you or your boat if you use the syn you'll never be able to collect the benefits.

Beyond the occasional leaky seal comment that I don't think is worth mentioning everyone and every comment has supported the fact that syn is BETTER ............. but that knowledge is useless because we don't need it.

But it's fine to use.

I read recently that synthetic oils make up around 6% of all lubricating oil sales, of that only 30% is commercial, the rest is consumer.

The people that need to be objective about it don't choose it.

bfloyd4445 said:

??? ...... what am I missing?

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You are missing the support of the world's diesel engine manufacturers and commercial end users who would recommend and use syn in a heartbeat if the statements you made were fact.

As I suggested ten pages ago, supporters of syn for all user's diesel engines should post opinions on boatdiesel.com. I've neither seen or heard a peep yet on that Forum.

While you're at it read Cat's lubrication guidelines, recommended oil types and change intervals for Cat synthetic oil. If interested, google Chevron DELO 400 for a light read by the world's leading diesel oil supplier.

Northern Spy said:

I read recently that synthetic oils make up around 6% of all lubricating oil sales, of that only 30% is commercial, the rest is consumer.

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NS - You have any other/additional info regarding that reading bout synthetic oil? Publisher or magazine the article was in...

Only seems logical that more than 1/3-minus of commercial users would be purchasing the overall oil market's 6% sales of syn oil. Also, I wonder why after some four decades availability to syn oil and much improvements that the commercial sector doesn’t jump all over it for use in most forms of equipment. I can see general consumers purchasing and using over 60% of current 6% syn sales... simply because consumers can be easily swayed by advertising.

I'm not saying that syn oil is bad at all - just trying to understand why those that should know (commercial users) seem not very impressed. Must be a reason behind this lag in syn oil sales to commercial fleets!?!?

Sorry, it was in a relatively recent tribology manual the name eludes me but it was something catchy like Tribology Series volume (insert favorite number here)...

We were looking in to running Royal Purple in a primary pulp refiner. I have a subscription to online engineering books at work. I'll try and look it up tomorrow.

The reason is $$$. It just doesn't make sense for most applications. Otherwise it would be used everywhere in industry.

FWIW, I ran synthetic lubricants in my vehicles in the winter when I lived in Central Alberta due to their low pour point and high VI. Of course it got down to the -40s in temperature. Made sense there.

Northern Spy said:

Sorry, it was in a relatively recent tribology manual the name eludes me but it was something catchy like Tribology Series volume (insert favorite number here)...

We were looking in to running Royal Purple in a primary pulp refiner. I have a subscription to online engineering books at work. I'll try and look it up tomorrow.

The reason is $$$. It just doesn't make sense for most applications. Otherwise it would be used everywhere in industry.

FWIW, I ran synthetic lubricants in my vehicles in the winter when I lived in Central Alberta due to their low pour point and high VI. Of course it got down to the -40s in temperature. Made sense there.

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Thanks NS

BTW: Besides having twice lived in San Diego for over a year, traveled the country for several years, and currently living in San Francisco Bay area since 8/18/1984... I lived in NY for 18 years, Mid Maine for 6 years, 6,000 foot elevation in Sierra Nevada Mountains (60 miles from Tahoe) for 9 years. Owned - cars, PU trucks, snow mobiles, plow trucks, dump trucks, vans and other items with hydrocarbon fuel engines such as boats, motorcycles, and generators. I’ve run motors in + 115 F to - 35 F temps. Never used syn oil. Always able to start and run my engines with correct lube weights and coolant mix. Used block/oil warmers over night some times during real low temps.

Your mention: "The reason is $$$. It just doesn't make sense for most applications. Otherwise it would be used everywhere in industry."

Makes me want to ask... How could the relatively low additional overall expense of a better oil (i.e. syn oil) that seems to heads and tails outperform another oil (i.e. dino oil) ever stop most of the commercial industry from using the better synthetic oil. Syn oil's added expense should/would be far displaced by improved performance, reduced breakdown, and engine last ability. Sooo... seems to me that there must be another reason (a currently hidden reason??) why synthetic oils have not simply captured the oil market by a vast majority???

I'm trying to figure out if/why I should/might begin to use syn oil in my classic or newer gasoline engines.

Tom.B said:

Good stuff! Thanks Craig and Mike!

I found a local shop here in Raleigh to do an oil analysis for me and can turn it over in 24 hours. My next boat project(s) after we get back from our vacation (Playa Del Carmen) is annual engine maintenance. We'll see where we are with that. I'm excited and scared to find out what it will say.

One thing Craig is correct about is that I doubt I get all the oil out with the hand pump built onto the engine. However, I do plan on buying an evac pump this year to change the tranny (or is that gearbox) fluid. I will probably try to dig into the corners of the oil pan and do some sucky-sucky. I would bet there is still a quart in there and a pile of metal shaving.

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Do tell? What shop?

1. Capthead, yours is the first avatar I`ve seen featuring a painting. Quite inventive, is there a story behind it?

2. What is "synthetic" oil made from? I seem to remember (from the last outing for this subject) it was modified real oil, but memory can be lousy. And I`ve seen some auto oils described as "semi- synthetic". Anyone know?

many comercials have switched to synthetics for gearbox applications.

For engines where you have to remove it and toss it due to combustion products...it doen't justify itself.

The main kicker is there isn't enogh "proof" out there that the "claims" of syn oil actually lengthen the life of a motor enough to justify it's expense. If there was a cost analysis would convince companies to do so.

Syn oils ARE used where their properites are clearly superior.

If I remember correctly the USCG HH65A helicopters had a helluva time with dino oil coking in the turbine bearings upon shutdown. Too much heat still after the flow had stopped. After switching to a miracle synthetic and changing shutdon procedures...the problem was minimalized.

Problem...soluton...but without KNOWN failures caused by dino oil...and changing requirements based on pollutants that synthetics can't totally overcome...the ave a difficult task of becoming more popular.

The main kicker is there isn't enogh "proof" out there that the "claims" of syn oil actually lengthen the life of a motor enough to justify it's expense. If there was a cost analysis would convince companies to do so.

In the OTR trucking industry they have done enough testing to use synthetic as it increases the fuel mileage , and reduces oil changes enough to pay the extra cost.

Big difference between 200,000 miles a year and 200 hours tho.

The loss of internal rust resistance of syn is enough to steer me clear.

BruceK, There is an artist that was commissioned to do an oil painting for a magazine cover and he wanted to paint a Grand Banks. He was in a marina several marinas away from mine. One day he came walking down the dock and asked if I would let him paint my boat. Of course I said yes, and that's how it happened. I saw the painting and took a picture of it and when the magazine came out I got several copies and kept the cover.

The original painting had 1/4 more sky above where I cropped it for the banner heading.

That is the LA Light behind in the picture.

I have a brother in the oil business and he said synthetic is like liquid polyethylene which is what Mobile 1 is - basically.

I'm not sure he's right, but Mobil calls it PAO. polyalphaolefin (PAO) Group IV base stocks, some of which are used for automotive synthetic motor oils.

FF said:

The main kicker is there isn't enogh "proof" out there that the "claims" of syn oil actually lengthen the life of a motor enough to justify it's expense. If there was a cost analysis would convince companies to do so.

In the OTR trucking industry they have done enough testing to use synthetic as it increases the fuel mileage , and reduces oil changes enough to pay the extra cost.

Big difference between 200,000 miles a year and 200 hours tho.

The loss of internal rust resistance of syn is enough to steer me clear.

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"The loss of internal rust resistance of syn is enough to steer me clear."

Very Valid Point, Fred. Thanks, I'd forgotten about reading that item!

So... due to that point alone, and with my engines at times spending up to a couple or three months un used, syn oil is simply not for my boat. Will stick to high grade dino oil! – Case-Closed for me, unless syn can incorporate rust preventative that works at least as well as dino. Then I'll revisit opportunity for synthetic oil use and what it may offer for improvements over dino oil.

Please show me testing to prove, loss of internal rust resistance of syn

Capthead said:

Please show me testing to prove, loss of internal rust resistance of syn

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Not sure Capt - But, I believe the reference I recall was in this thread?? May even be in the l-o-n-g 1970's article you linked and I completely read. But... like FF mentioned about internal rusting capable with syn oil, and the fact that I'd read it before (somewhere), I'd need proof that syn oil could prevent rust good as dino oil before I'd use in any engine that would or may remain unused for periods of time.

BTW – I agree with others... Great pict/painting of your boat!

BruceK said:

1. Capthead, yours is the first avatar I`ve seen featuring a painting. Quite inventive, is there a story behind it?

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I do know the synthetic has a long chain molecule as all reports show that and one end is a magnet and when it coats the metal block, it sticks there so I have to be shown that corrosion could happen. I know I get rust on anything I sprayed with WD40 after a small amount of time. That doesn't last.

The middle of that chain is a strong binder and the end is super slick. That is the makeup of a synthetic oil molecule.

I know everybody is saying longevity isn't proven, but the bare fact that the Lincoln engine Ford tore down with 100,000 miles on it still had visible hone marks in the cylinder walls and didn't show more than the 500 miles on dino oil, that speaks to me. I don't know why others can't see that as a positive.

Anyway, thanks on the pic comment. It's been fun talking oil with everybody. Soon it will be cruising weather and we can get some use out of our boats.

I have to tear off the teak deck this year and replace it. I'm going back with epoxy over glass cloth covered ply and painted non skid. No More Teak.

Then I can burn some fuel.