Any Synthetic Oil Users Here?

Ya know...

After years of carefully reading/discerning/following many recommendations for “lubrication types” from vehicle owning novices to racing pros to factory engineers to OEMs to lubrication manufacturers and from other “experts”... I’m getting ever closer to trying a high grade synthetic oil in one of my classic flat tappet high performance car/truck engines, or in one of my standard power range flat tappet twin screw marine V8s, or in one of my roller bearing lifter newer model auto/SUV that have relatively high mileage. Because all my engines have only been high grade dino oiled for years I simply wonder if upon repeat usage of syn oil it may begin to open up currently closed (by years of accumulated gunk) deficits in seals and might even ruin the seal materials in the 1967, 1977, and 1985 (Buick Wildcat, Tolly Twins, Chevy 4WD – respectively).

Probably for closest check regarding difference of syn compared to dino oil would be to continue dino oil in one and begin syn oil in the other of the Tolly’s twins. That said... I’m a stickler in keeping engine compartment clean and bilge oil free. Sure would be bummer to have one of the twin 350/255 hp engines begin to leak oil out its seals. Also, although both engines are running equally strong – port had complete rebuild and starboard had just complete top end rebuild some few hundred hours ago... so... would the dino – vs – syn test twixt the twins be slanted in any way??? I guess I’d try the syn oil in the port engine that had complete rebuild.

I don’t alter my ongoing successful MO's easily and adhere to the money saving fact: “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it!”

I also adhere to the quote I copied below from my post # 46... So, if I do try syn oil in one or another of my engines I will follow the intent stated therein. And, when/if I do try synthetic oil I’ll post my conclusions on TF; after a fair amount of time and a number of oil changes.

Post # 46: “Foundation of keeping enclosed mechanical operations in best condition, i.e gears, bearings... or other items requiring lubrication-barriers: Keep the appropriately correct lubricants clean and in good condition with consistent fluid changes at proper intervals; replaced or cleaned filters if so equipped."

Capthead said:

.............I once read a test of oil filters and I can't say it was funded by Fram but they won hands down on several factors. 1, the ability to trap particles and 2, the amount they can hold before going into bypass mode.............

Click to expand...

I have read more than one oil filter study that concluded that Fram was the worst of the ones tested.

So where does that leave us? Scratching our heads I guess.

Daddyo wrote about his friend " He was racing dune buggies with aircooled VW engines and his always ran at 270." I assume that was degrees and running that hot (like I did w UL aircraft) synthetic oils are a huge benefit. But our lightly loaded diesels are very cool by comparison and well served by dino oils.

Art to clean out your high millage engines just use a bit of "Sea Foam" in the oil just before a change. No need to buy synthetic just for cleanliness. And the cleanliness your'e talking about may only result from "previous experience". You need a cleaner (if you need anything) not an oil that runs clean now. For more cleanliness just change more often.

Re the friction question I think I addressed that a long time ago during my motorcycling and flying days. As I recall there's no difference worth mentioning.

Re the thermostat if there was suddenly less friction the coolant would cool, the thermostat would close to bring the temp back up and maintain temp (that's what it's designed to do) and the result would be no change as sunchaser said or implied a few days ago. If you want to see if the engine is running cooler w syn oil measure the temp of the lube oil.

On my boat I think I'll stay w straight weight oil w/o vis improvers changing about twice as often and consider installing a bypass filter. The bypass filter should do me a lot more good than either multi-vis or syn oil.

I read AC Delco was the best in one test. Problem is, finding them. Most places for boat filters only carry a few brands. I can only find one brand for my Lehmans so it doesn't matter for me.

I have thought about installing a bypass filter. The cost is keeping me from it. I filter my fuel to 2 microns, why not my oil?

Capthead said:

I read AC Delco was the best in one test. Problem is, finding them. Most places for boat filters only carry a few brands. I can only find one brand for my Lehmans so it doesn't matter for me.

I have thought about installing a bypass filter. The cost is keeping me from it. I filter my fuel to 2 microns, why not my oil?

Click to expand...

My Lehman hads a remote oil location adapter. It fits the equivalent of a (FORD) Motorcraft FL-1A...every make filter out there has an equivalent and are very easy to find in just about anyplace that sells auto stuff..I have even seen them in grocery stores...

Engine Oil Filter Study

Here is the test with AC Delco rating high.

Click on the link at the bottom and the conclusion page comes up. There it says Fram is bad.

Capthead said:

I read AC Delco was the best in one test. Problem is, finding them. Most places for boat filters only carry a few brands. I can only find one brand for my Lehmans so it doesn't matter for me.............

Click to expand...

WIX makes equivalent filters for my Volvo and they are stocked at my local Parks auto parts store. Perhaps they make a replacement for your filter as well.

manyboats said:

Art to clean out your high millage engines just use a bit of "Sea Foam" in the oil just before a change. No need to buy synthetic just for cleanliness. And the cleanliness your'e talking about may only result from "previous experience". You need a cleaner (if you need anything) not an oil that runs clean now. For more cleanliness just change more often.

Click to expand...

Eric - I use Sea Foam in my engines and well as high grade dino oil that I often change with new filters. They are clean internally (externally too - lol). I might try syn oil for its so called added "magnetic" attraction capabilities to better keep a lube-barrier on all surfaces. The question I have is: By using syn oil on a repeat basis for years on end in my old VG condition classic gas engines (land-based and marine) would the syn oil eventually ruin their old-school seal materials and begin oil leaks that would eventually require complete seal replacement or engine rebuild to stop the leaks???

Additionally, I agree with you that the thermostat in engines is the “engine’s temperature” determining factor... not the lubricant... or for that matter... neither the weather temperature nor type/amount of coolant used. No matter what is introduced into or around an engine the heat activated thermostat is a very close judge as to what temperature the engine must maintain... as per manufacturer’s specs. So... I have a hard time swallowing reports of extremely reduced engine temps due to different oils used. Unless, of course, the engine was previously overheating way beyond what its fully open thermostat was able to accomplish... then the added lubricity of some different type oil may enable some added cooling effect. But, if as mentioned by others the engines were running with such high temps previously it seems to me there was a disaster in the making that had more items at fault than just type of oil used and the engine should seize up.

Wix is the only brand I can buy from one place and Baldwin from another.
My Ford Lehman's have the canister style filter, not the spin on.

We use NAPA filters, which are simply Wix filters with NAPA branding, in all our vehicles except the Subaru. We use Baldwin oil and fuel filters on the GB except in the Racors in which we use Racor elements.

Art,
If I was to use synthetic I'd buy mobil 1 and I don't think you need to worry about seals leaking. And if they did it prolly wouldn't have anything to do w the synthetic.

But it seems you've had excellent service w dino oils so why change.

Hey Marin, glad to see you here. I've noticed you and hadn't said HI!

Capthead said:

Hey Marin, glad to see you here. I've noticed you and hadn't said HI!

Click to expand...

Since the project I was part of has ended I'm trying hard to wind down my participation in this forum but it's like trying to kick a habit.. So far I've been trying to quit cold turkey but it hasn't worked. I guess the next step is counseling and perhaps even surgery.

Cold Turkey is hard to do. Wild Turkey over ice and a Churchill cigar will help.

rwidman said:

Suggesting that we each cut up a bunch of oil filters to see how they are made and what they filter doesn't really do us much good as we won't typically have a bunch of used oil filters lying around the house.

Why don't you go ahead and tell us about it or better yet, post some photos.

Click to expand...

Sorry don't have any cut oil filter pics on hand just foul diesel fuel tanks, the link provided after my post should help some, Wix is a good Co. All there filters have metal inner caps not cardboard like many very popular brands, My point on the oil filter thing was to shed some light on how oil filters are just as important as what type of oil to purchase if not more important, Most older diesels like Fords and Perkins use simple cheep automotive type oil filters, many filters have a relief valve in the head of the filter so the filter wont blow out the paper and cardboard backing on cold starts or with a dirty filter, Most of time its carbon from blow by that contaminates oil and plugs filters, My thoughts are if you own a diesel that the oil gets black within the first 50 hrs, its better to change the filter more often than buy expensive synth oil, The purchase a oil centrifuge to pull the carbon out is also something to think about, Carbon is one of the hardest elements on the planet and it really doesn't matter if its cheep or expensive engine oil once the oil filter relief spring opens and unfiltered oil eats up your stuff.

manyboats said:

Art, If I was to use synthetic I'd buy mobil 1 and I don't think you need to worry about seals leaking. And if they did it prolly wouldn't have anything to do w the synthetic.

But it seems you've had excellent service w dino oils so why change.

Click to expand...

I agree, Eric - That's why to date I've not changed to syn oil in caring for my well running, flat tappet classic gasoline engines. This has been a pretty interesting thread though. I'm not planning to change from dino oil any time soon. So far I've not found a "truly compelling" reason for syn oil to displace dino and therefore become my ongoing buddy for long-life classic engines... as their internal lube-barriers! But, maybe that compelling reason will some day be brought to light... Patience is a virtue!

I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?

Tom.B said:

I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?

Click to expand...

I have the same question as my oil is never black! I will admit, however, to having OCD when it comes to oil changes. I change mine annually and recently have only been putting about 40 hrs. a year on the boat. When I turned 70, my enthusiasm ebbed considerably relative to boating. (This year, I'm really trying to get my Mojo back.)

I use Lucas. I've used it for years in all my boats, gearbox's vehicles etc. like franks redhot sauce, I put that **** in everything!

Tom.B said:

I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?

Click to expand...

Ours certainly does and always had since we bought the boat in 1998. Granted, if I shine a flashlight on the oil on the dipstick it's more clear/brown than black, but for all practical purposes, it looks black. The same was true of my wife's VW diesel Rabbit.

Tom.B said:

I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?

Click to expand...

Indeed. The black is carbon. An abrasive.
Change oil often ...... much more likely to happen using dino.

Tom.B said:

I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?

Click to expand...

Good question Tom.... Providing you get all the oil oil out when servicing and the service is done at the proper times, even diesel oil should stay clean, When oil overheats it will darken and have a burnt smell , Most engine ware surfaces like bearings, piston skirts, rings , cylinder hone etchings are not black, with the exception of old black iron rings and even then there is not enough volume to blacken the oil, For the most part its ring blow by and carbon deposits from combustion that makes the black mess, Engines that have a small % of blow by have cleaner oil, older or overloaded engines or improper fuel injector spray patterns will turn it black quick, A quick cylinder leak down test will shed some light on ring seal, I often see boats with too much prop pitch cause engine oil to turn black before the service time is due, If your oil turns black fast something is wrong, This does not mean your engine is going to fail , It means that the state of mechanical efficiency is lower than normal, For the most part fuel injection has a lot to do with black oil as well as over all engine life, Bad injection spray patterns promote carbon and carbon eats engines.

rwidman said:

I have read more than one oil filter study that concluded that Fram was the worst of the ones tested.

So where does that leave us? Scratching our heads I guess.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you need to cut one open.

I have. I will never use a fram again.

Notes from my maintenance log 6 years ago when I was fighting a very slight emulsion of water in my oil on my old engine. (I've repowered since)

4810 hrs. Fram PH3519A. PO bought as spare, gave it a try. Oil filter overpressurized and blew up. 10 liters of oil in bilge. Cut open filter. Incredibly cheap stamped construction and convoluted flow path for oil to bypass. Never buy again. NAPA (WIX) filter has proper relief system and coil spring.

Tom.B said:

I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?

Click to expand...

Yes, it is soot from blow-by (or with newer engines, EGR). Soot is very fine (<.05 micron), relatively soft and spherical shaped.

The "blackness" of the oil is typically a function of the amount of dispersent additives (detergent) in the oil. The idea is to keep the teeny tiny soot particles from conglomerating or agglomerating (I forgets the difference) forming a bigger particle or sludge on the metal parts.

As long as your detergent is not depleted, it is likely OK. We used to do blotter tests, but there are much higher tech ways of determining soot load now.

Low or non-detergent oil stays "clean".

Oopps, I forgot one ... engine room free air, very important on turbo Diesels

The black is "soot"? What exactly is soot?

Is the black not carbon?

Soot is partially combusted carbon. It really messes with trying to determine ISO cleanliness standards and is hard to separate out from more threatening contaminates such as silica (dirt) and metal in diesel oil. Most the lubricants I deal with in my Reliability Engineering role don't have a heavy soot load so I'm not too conversant on it, and my tribology training is likely old and outdated. Maybe sunchaser could shed more light on it. He seems to have a heavy equipment background

Northern Spy said:

Soot is partially combusted carbon. It really messes with trying to determine ISO cleanliness standards and is hard to separate out from more threatening contaminates such as silica (dirt) and metal in diesel oil. Most the lubricants I deal with in my Reliability Engineering role don't have a heavy soot load so I'm not too conversant on it, and my tribology training is likely old and outdated. Maybe sunchaser could shed more light on it. He seems to have a heavy equipment background

Click to expand...

So far right on the money from my experience.

While exccesive soot is not normal there's gonna be some and if the oil is doing it's job and you do yours of proper monitoring/interval maintenance....it's what the oil copanies and engine deigners expect.

Here's one of the more simple explanations of soot I've read...

http://www.gofurtherwithfs.com/Whitepapers/Soot in Diesel Engines.pdf

Good stuff! Thanks Craig and Mike!

I found a local shop here in Raleigh to do an oil analysis for me and can turn it over in 24 hours. My next boat project(s) after we get back from our vacation (Playa Del Carmen) is annual engine maintenance. We'll see where we are with that. I'm excited and scared to find out what it will say.

One thing Craig is correct about is that I doubt I get all the oil out with the hand pump built onto the engine. However, I do plan on buying an evac pump this year to change the tranny (or is that gearbox) fluid. I will probably try to dig into the corners of the oil pan and do some sucky-sucky. I would bet there is still a quart in there and a pile of metal shaving.

Northern Spy said:

Sounds like you need to cut one open.
............

Click to expand...

I leave that sort of testing to the experts. It would do me little good unless I cut several different brands open and I still wouldn't know what I was looking for.

If I really wanted to see the inside of one, I could probably find a photo on the Internet.