New LED Lighting

skidgear said:

I'm one of those guys in your second paragraph...trying to understand "if it can be done" and what it would take...just for the sake of knowing. (For the record, I'm pretty weak in the electrical and electronics areas).

Anyway, I'm not clear regarding your first comment. For the sake of discussion...let's say there are four or five fixtures in the salon circuit. And let's assume that you are using LED bulbs/fixtures with no resisters and no built-in regulators. Then you buy a regulator that is sized for just that zone with those four or five (likely home made) bulbs. To your first comment above, would the current in the circuit change all that much with addition/deletion of lights on/off in the circuit given the inherent small draw of LEDs?

By the way, after reading about these buck devices, I was thinking perhaps one for each zone as I found small controllers in the $50-$100 range that seemed pretty smart and large enough to carry the current for a few LED bulbs. Each which would be wired through the associated electrical panel switch. Three "zones" for our boat.

Again, I'm one of those guys trying to understand how it could be done....or if not at all.

Thanks

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1) Your price range would more than cover the difference between lamps or fixtures with drivers and the cheaper resistor type. You won't find fixtures or replacement bulbs without resistors or drivers, you would have to buy discreete LEDs and build your own.

2) Anything can be done but if you want to know how, you will need to study electronics. Probably at least a two year course at your local community college.

one question I have to ask about about this discussion is if we are talking "practical or theory" -- does the voltage variation on the boat really make a difference? has anybody just used the "cheap" LED's and what was the downside?

I changed all my g4 bulbs, eighteen in all, to led in 2010. All were $2.00 (free shipping!) units from China. We traded the boat last summer for our North Pacific 39. At the time of the trade 31 July, all the lamps were still working.

I will be ordering Chinese bulbs to replace all the g4s on the NP. At $2.00 or less each I will order several extras. Just does not seem worth it to do anything else.

Does anyone know where to find a screw base adaptor so I can replace the incandesant with a g4?

The cheapos worked for me, no downside YMMV.

Rob

rhakct said:

one question I have to ask about about this discussion is if we are talking "practical or theory" -- does the voltage variation on the boat really make a difference? has anybody just used the "cheap" LED's and what was the downside?

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The voltage on the boat varies quite a bit between the high voltage with the engine or charger and the low voltage with no charging source, especially if other appliances are running.

I think I mentioned this in an earlier post, but yes, I personally used the cheaper LEDs with dropping resistors in the saloon and the decrease in brightness is pretty noticable. I used LEDs with drivers in the V berth and the brightness does not change.

rwidman said:

1) Your price range would more than cover the difference between lamps or fixtures with drivers and the cheaper resistor type. You won't find fixtures or replacement bulbs without resistors or drivers, you would have to buy discreete LEDs and build your own.

2) Anything can be done but if you want to know how, you will need to study electronics. Probably at least a two year course at your local community college.

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Yes, I understand the cost tradeoffs and what's being manufactured today. I purchased a whole sack of LEDS several years ago with the thought that I'd spend a few rainy days making my own arrays for the existing fixtures. The plan at the time was to use resisters. In the interim, drivers became mainstream....and then this discussion came along. Seemed like an interesting idea to investigate a central power source if you're building the lights anyway. My questions were theoretical and hypothetical with the aim of gaining an understanding of the options. I thought maybe someone here might have enough experience with these DC-DC converters to clarify some things. Thanks.

skidgear said:

Yes, I understand the cost tradeoffs and what's being manufactured today. I purchased a whole sack of LEDS several years ago with the thought that I'd spend a few rainy days making my own arrays for the existing fixtures. The plan at the time was to use resisters. In the interim, drivers became mainstream....and then this discussion came along. Seemed like an interesting idea to investigate a central power source if you're building the lights anyway. My questions were theoretical and hypothetical with the aim of gaining an understanding of the options. I thought maybe someone here might have enough experience with these DC-DC converters to clarify some things. Thanks.

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What exactly are you looking for?

The DC to DC converters will maintain a steady output right at 12V unless you get a variable one or tweak one to a slightly different voltage...

The one link I posed before discusses using a 12 power supply for outdoor LED lighting....some research there might payoff too. The real trick would be to find out exactly what voltage the LEDs you are using need for optimum operation.

If I find a source of cheap LEDs that have many possible lighting applications and one common preferred voltage, I may rewire all my lighting circuits to use this method (but the real story here is I am rewiring my whole boat anyhow ). Regular old 12 boat power would be the backup until the power supply could be replaced.

Voltage regulators cheap enough to put in each fixture or string of fixtures here

DC Converter Module 12V 20V Convert to 9V 2A 18W Output Car LED Power Adapter | eBay

I think you guys are making too much of a non issue....
I have ran LED's in two boats and a RV so far.. and have not had any fail. I had one D.O.A. but that doesn't count . I think the bigger issue with LED's is to make sure they do not cause too much interference with the other electronics. I had LED's in my running lights that caused noise in one ( of three ) VHF's on board.
HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 said:

I think you guys are making too much of a non issue....
I have ran LED's in two boats and a RV so far.. and have not had any fail. I had one D.O.A. but that doesn't count . I think the bigger issue with LED's is to make sure they do not cause too much interference with the other electronics. I had LED's in my running lights that caused noise in one ( of three ) VHF's on board.
HOLLYWOOD

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You may be right. I had some boards with 10 LED's which I installed in my existing fixtures. I have a 3 step external regulator on my alternator and it indeed charges hard on the first step but I seldom have my interior lights on at that point because it is usually daylight when I start out so the LED's were fine for most of the season.

However one time, after a weekend at Nantucket, I left at night and right away I had people reading below (the regulator was on first step I'm sure after two days of not moving). One by one the interior lights went dim.

The LED light was terrible to read by or play cards by so I replaced them back to the original bulbs. However when I opened them up before replacing, I found several of the LED's burned out on each board.

Moral of story: Charging systems and operating conditions are different. If LED's require exact voltage then regulation at the fixture or at the whole circuit will be part of my next try at LED's.

psneeld said:

What exactly are you looking for?

The DC to DC converters will maintain a steady output right at 12V unless you get a variable one or tweak one to a slightly different voltage...

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In an earlier post, rwidman commented that a controller for the whole boat would not be practical because as you turned lights on and off, the current requirements would change. I was trying to understand why that would be the case if the dc-dc power converter was sized big enough to handle all the lights in the circuit, and all the bulbs in the circuit were matched to the characteristics of the converter.

skidgear said:

In an earlier post, rwidman commented that a controller for the whole boat would not be practical because as you turned lights on and off, the current requirements would change. I was trying to understand why that would be the case if the dc-dc power converter was sized big enough to handle all the lights in the circuit, and all the bulbs in the circuit were matched to the characteristics of the converter.

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I don't think that would make any difference. As long as the total amperage of the fixtures did not exceed the rating of the controller, you would be fine. The only caution I could find is the the output v. must remain above the input v. by some specified amount. The controllers I found were cheap enough to put one in each fixture (see post above) if you wanted to.

hollywood8118 said:

I think you guys are making too much of a non issue....
I have ran LED's in two boats and a RV so far.. and have not had any fail. I had one D.O.A. but that doesn't count . I think the bigger issue with LED's is to make sure they do not cause too much interference with the other electronics. I had LED's in my running lights that caused noise in one ( of three ) VHF's on board.
HOLLYWOOD

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If your LEDs caused interference with electronics it is because they have internal driver circuits. LEDs with series resistors will not cause interference.

Brooksie said:

I don't think that would make any difference. As long as the total amperage of the fixtures did not exceed the rating of the controller, you would be fine. The only caution I could find is the the output v. must remain above the input v. by some specified amount. The controllers I found were cheap enough to put one in each fixture (see post above) if you wanted to.

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If you are regulating the current, you would have to have a fixed number of LEDs (a fixed load). You could not turn individual LEDs on and off.

If you are regulating the voltage, you could turn LEDs on and off within the capacity of the regulator. However, you would be back to the series resistor method with its disadvantages.

If any of you guys seriously want to learn about this stuff or actually attempt it, you need to get on an electronics forum, not a boating forum.

skidgear said:

In an earlier post, rwidman commented that a controller for the whole boat would not be practical because as you turned lights on and off, the current requirements would change. I was trying to understand why that would be the case if the dc-dc power converter was sized big enough to handle all the lights in the circuit, and all the bulbs in the circuit were matched to the characteristics of the converter.

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I understand the concepts between the two ways of getting the most out of LEDs without the issues....

A rated high enough DC-DC converter would be fine...as long as it provided the voltage that ALL the seperate LED bulbs/fixtures liked. I would run it to a fuse block with each lighting circuit fed by an appropriate fuse. Each lighting circuit would have a circuit on/off switch just in case not all the fixtures did.

I can honestly say withut crunching all the numbers for a specific boat...it's hard to say which would be more efficient and cost effective.

But my gut is telling me that if I have say 30-40 LED light fixtures on a boat...the efficiency and cost effectiveness of installing a whole boat regulated voltage supply and cheapo lights will be more cost effective and efficient than using fixtures and lights that cost 5 times more.

But one more thing...the more I think about it....I think I would only crunch the numbers if I was starting from scratch, rewiring my boat (which I am) or I had a large boat with hundreds of light fixtures. The probability that 30-50 light fixtures requiring changeout or modification to handle the better bulbs and the cost of the better bulbs isn't going to be that much different than trying all this wth cheaper bulbs and modifying your electrical system.

One advantage of going LED is that if done correctly and the better bub lives up to it's rep...once you switch...only my heirs will have to worry about whether I made the right or wrong decision...

rwidman said:

If you are regulating the current, you would have to have a fixed number of LEDs (a fixed load). You could not turn individual LEDs on and off.

If you are regulating the voltage, you could turn LEDs on and off within the capacity of the regulator. However, you would be back to the series resistor method with its disadvantages.

If any of you guys seriously want to learn about this stuff or actually attempt it, you need to get on an electronics forum, not a boating forum.

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You just clarified what I was trying to understand. Might have stated it earlier, but I didn't get it. Thanks for sharing the info. No need to go to an electronics forum...yet. Next question is just how much efficiency is lost with a resistor versus regulated bulb. If it's milliamps, it might get lost in the weeds.

Watching a home improvement show on TV a few minutes ago, I saw that a system of LED fixtures with a common single driver is available (for 120 volts AC). A trip to the home center might be in order for anyone with a serious interest in doing it this way.

Ron,
What you said about the driver being the source of interference not the LED's or LED's w/ resistors, is a good reason to accept the losses from the resistor type system. What are we actually talking about? A few miliiamps and a few lumens?

Pay a little more for the LED bulbs with buck driver circuits integrated, and there should be no problems with lights dimming on voltage drops. We have used them for about 3 years with no problems. No tricky wiring or fixture changes. Just replaced about 50 bulbs. Very happy so far. It is nice not to have to worry about someone leaving a light on. They also work on regular 12 V dimmers. Many different types and colors available.

Brooksie said:

Ron,
What you said about the driver being the source of interference not the LED's or LED's w/ resistors, is a good reason to accept the losses from the resistor type system. What are we actually talking about? A few miliiamps and a few lumens?

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It's not just the inefficiency, the brightness will vary with the voltage on the boat. Shorepower charger on or engine running, they will be brighter. Heavy electrical load at anchor, they will dim. For example, with the engine not running, cook something in the microwave using the inverter and the lights will dim.

For the folks saying the drivers will not cause interference with electronics, the interference will be at specific frequencies so if these frequencies do not coincide with your electronics, you will not notice a problem. Example:

I bought two LED replacement lamps with built in drivers for the lights in my V berth fixtures. They worked fine. One evening I was watching TV and I turned on one of the lights. The TV signal froze. Turned off the light and it came back. This only happened on channel seven, not on any of the other channels. If channel seven was not in use in my area, I would have never known about the interference problem.

I installed a simple capacitor filter inside the base of each lamp and that eliminated the problem.

Interesting thread. My boat was originally lamped with 12" fluorescent fixtures that had pretty much all failed. We literally had no effective 12-volt lighting. I replace all of the 12" tubes with these. They connect into the original sockets but power is supplied through the pigtail coming out of the back of the tube. I am very happy with the results and I now have 12-volt lighting that is really usable.

Marty......................