psneeld
Guru
Liveaboard in Avalon , New Jersey Apr-Dec....points south for Dec-Apr.
Rough Water Seamanship part deux: How to
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Capthead
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In keeping with the Rough Water Seamanship part deux: How to subject, I'll write about another experience I had.
One Thanksgiving we spent at the Isthmus at Catalina we stayed for the weekend. There had been a storm predicted for that Saturday but it had stalled and that forecast was changed. That evening just before sunset the harbor patrol came to our boat and told us they expected Santa Ana winds and big seas to hit around 10;00 pm so tie slack in the mooring lines and put chafing gear around them.
Santa Ana winds blow off the mountains and across the channel to Catalina and build seas as they hit the Island. We were tied bow to the seas and were ready. Ten o'clock came and went and nothing happened so we went to bed. At 11:30 it was like a switch turned on. Huge seas hit the boat and winds above 50 kts. No build up, just BAM!!
I went out to check the lines and had to duck walk to the bow. The night was clear and the moon and stars were shining brightly so I could see most of the harbor. The waves were hitting the bow about 8 to 10 degrees to port so they weren't exactly head on but the bow shape of the GB which is almost plumb and a low fore front actually sliced the waves and our pitching was a lot less than other boats near us.
A sail boat behind us was wildly pitching with it's round hull design and he was tied too tight to his mooring. I yelled to him to let out some slack but he looked at me wide eyed and did nothing. Each lifting of his bow was resulting on his boat lifting the 20 ton block beneath him. To my starboard was a catamaran power boat used for sea tours and it was only tied to one mooring. It too was pitching wildly as it sat on top of the water.
As the night went on, I went through several rags I used for chafing and I watched a commercial dive boat, a 60' trawler, sink and break apart in front of us. It was on a coast guard mooring and there were nine commercial divers aboard. That boat, out of Redondo, was set up for hard hat diving and had a compressor installed below decks. Who ever installed it chose to put a hole in the bow and run a household clothes dryer hose from that hole to the compressor for fresh air.
Guess what happened to that hole when 12' seas started pounding the hull? I watched them stand in the cockpit with all the spreader lights on and they kept looking at the freeboard and watching it disappear. Soon the generator was under water and the lights went out. They stood there looking, walking around and talking in the cockpit. Finally it sunk and the lifeguard and harbor patrol boat came out and picked them out of the water.
I went aft and that sail boat was now in the third row behind my boat, captain was still wide eyed looking at me.
It was 3:30 now and the seas and wind were much bigger. The cat had cut the mooring line and the harbor patrol boats were tending to it trying to get it turned around and re tied.
I was thanking god that we had a GB and our bow was splitting the seas.
Finally at 1:00 Pm it slowed almost as fast as it started. I started the engines and told my wife to get to the bow. When they were warmed up I released my stern line and ran up to the bridge and we counted sets. I gave it forward power so she could drop the lines and we sliced through the mooring lines and balls and made it out without catching anything.
Our trip back was uneventful and when I got within a mile of the LA Light the seas were almost flat. We pulled into our slip and it was calm no wind. That was my first Santa Ana experience.
The dive boat spilled several hundred gallons of diesel, broke apart in hundreds of pieces and the flotsam was miles long. I'm amazed that out of nine commercial divers there was not one single person aboard, including the skipper, with common sense.
Weeks later I read in the LOG that they dove that site to salvage what thy could and they never found the engine from the boat. Amazing.
One Thanksgiving we spent at the Isthmus at Catalina we stayed for the weekend. There had been a storm predicted for that Saturday but it had stalled and that forecast was changed. That evening just before sunset the harbor patrol came to our boat and told us they expected Santa Ana winds and big seas to hit around 10;00 pm so tie slack in the mooring lines and put chafing gear around them.
Santa Ana winds blow off the mountains and across the channel to Catalina and build seas as they hit the Island. We were tied bow to the seas and were ready. Ten o'clock came and went and nothing happened so we went to bed. At 11:30 it was like a switch turned on. Huge seas hit the boat and winds above 50 kts. No build up, just BAM!!
I went out to check the lines and had to duck walk to the bow. The night was clear and the moon and stars were shining brightly so I could see most of the harbor. The waves were hitting the bow about 8 to 10 degrees to port so they weren't exactly head on but the bow shape of the GB which is almost plumb and a low fore front actually sliced the waves and our pitching was a lot less than other boats near us.
A sail boat behind us was wildly pitching with it's round hull design and he was tied too tight to his mooring. I yelled to him to let out some slack but he looked at me wide eyed and did nothing. Each lifting of his bow was resulting on his boat lifting the 20 ton block beneath him. To my starboard was a catamaran power boat used for sea tours and it was only tied to one mooring. It too was pitching wildly as it sat on top of the water.
As the night went on, I went through several rags I used for chafing and I watched a commercial dive boat, a 60' trawler, sink and break apart in front of us. It was on a coast guard mooring and there were nine commercial divers aboard. That boat, out of Redondo, was set up for hard hat diving and had a compressor installed below decks. Who ever installed it chose to put a hole in the bow and run a household clothes dryer hose from that hole to the compressor for fresh air.
Guess what happened to that hole when 12' seas started pounding the hull? I watched them stand in the cockpit with all the spreader lights on and they kept looking at the freeboard and watching it disappear. Soon the generator was under water and the lights went out. They stood there looking, walking around and talking in the cockpit. Finally it sunk and the lifeguard and harbor patrol boat came out and picked them out of the water.
I went aft and that sail boat was now in the third row behind my boat, captain was still wide eyed looking at me.
It was 3:30 now and the seas and wind were much bigger. The cat had cut the mooring line and the harbor patrol boats were tending to it trying to get it turned around and re tied.
I was thanking god that we had a GB and our bow was splitting the seas.
Finally at 1:00 Pm it slowed almost as fast as it started. I started the engines and told my wife to get to the bow. When they were warmed up I released my stern line and ran up to the bridge and we counted sets. I gave it forward power so she could drop the lines and we sliced through the mooring lines and balls and made it out without catching anything.
Our trip back was uneventful and when I got within a mile of the LA Light the seas were almost flat. We pulled into our slip and it was calm no wind. That was my first Santa Ana experience.
The dive boat spilled several hundred gallons of diesel, broke apart in hundreds of pieces and the flotsam was miles long. I'm amazed that out of nine commercial divers there was not one single person aboard, including the skipper, with common sense.
Weeks later I read in the LOG that they dove that site to salvage what thy could and they never found the engine from the boat. Amazing.
Yes, the short period can make things very nasty in very short order. Our OA has a nicely flared bow and it does very well in head seas. But the semi-displacement flat surfaces aft make it a biatch with following seas of more than 4-5 feet.
Yes. Virtually all of the harbors and marinas have breakwaters or sea walls. Our marina is on a small lake that accesses Lake michigan through a dredged east-west channel. Long jetties reach out into Lake Michigan...a fairly common configuration in towns that used to have railroad and car ferry service. Things stay fairly calm on the "little" lake unless the wind and waves are straight from the west. In that instance, waves off Lake Michigan roll straight down the channel and light up the little lake along with all of its marinas. A few years back a two day gale had four and five footers rolling through marinas. Lots of boat and dock damage. I recall a 55' Flemming with cleats ripped out and a big gash in the side from two days of endless heaving and slamming aginst the dock. Not a good time to be a live aboard. Boats at anchor in the middle of the lake ended up stuck in the mud at the eastern end.
Those marinas directly on the big Lake (not very many) have a sea wall...typically with a north or south entrance. Interesting maneuver if big waves are pounding in from the west. Big problem with silting, in those locations.
caltexflanc
Guru
There are certainly times when having some extra power comes in handy. Following seas is one of them. Coming into inlets in particular. I avoid using the wheel and run the boat with the throttles to stay properly positioned on the waves, preferably the wave. Getting your speed right can make things a whole lot easier in following seas on the open ocean too. My big tub has a fat butt and can get moving uncomfortably in seas coming from the aft quarter, it is my wife's least favorite boat motion. Some artful tacking is needed at times too.
There have been several times when we were glad we could get out of the "trawling" mode and into leaving a big carbon footprint.
There have been several times when we were glad we could get out of the "trawling" mode and into leaving a big carbon footprint.
psneeld
Guru
Standard practice if at anchor or at a mooring is to have your engne(s) on line and possibly in gear when severe conditions are forecast.
At least on the East Coast the USCG brodcasts the Captain of the Port order for all large ships at anchor/moored to bring main prop online. Granted their anchoring system is really different than small boats...but most of the boaters I know follow the same practice. The real problem for many rec boaters is keeping a cometent watch at the helm if something goes wrong and power would help.
At least on the East Coast the USCG brodcasts the Captain of the Port order for all large ships at anchor/moored to bring main prop online. Granted their anchoring system is really different than small boats...but most of the boaters I know follow the same practice. The real problem for many rec boaters is keeping a cometent watch at the helm if something goes wrong and power would help.
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Capthead
Guru
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That's interesting. Are the moorings bow/stern? Here they are, they aren't a single hook up. here in Catalina there are two main harbors, Avalon and the Isthmus/Cat Harbor or commonly called two harbors. The moorings are different between them. Avalon puts the boats very close together and there is a float block under the water between the aft mooring and your boat. I'd say it's about 6 or 7' below but it's a large block of foam and that makes it move around. There is a break wall for Avalon also. I don't think having a boat in gear would work except in the worse conditions.
I have talked to skippers that have used their engines in gear during an event but I haven't heard our local coast guard advise doing it.
psneeld
Guru
If you are tied to something and possibly going to exceed its limits or the connectors limits...your engine thrust could only help. If not...at least it's running and warmed up in case something lets go.
The Captain of the Port wouldn't issue an "anchorage" advisory/order to recreational and small commercial vessels...but it's meaning shouldn't fall short of our taking it under advisement.
bfloyd4445
Guru
Not so, the pacific northwest has lots of very dangerous waters that can catch you off guard. Then the river bars and inlets, harbors, down to San Francisco bay are all pretty hairy except under certain conditions. Some are not recommended under any circumstances unless a matter of life or death. Humbolt bay, http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Running-the-Bar.html, Newport Oregon, and this one of the smallest harbor on the coast of a coast garud vessel entering the bay demonstrates our sissey fied waters of Oregon.
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caltexflanc
Guru
Yep, I came in Depoe Bay once on a fishing trip, not me at the helm. Ay yi yi! And it was a pretty nice day supposedly. Rudy Inlet in Virginia has many similarities, another white knuckled even when you are a passenger and the guy at the helm has done it a hundred times. Tillamook has been a certified killer. It is not unusual for the CG to close the bar on a number of those Oregon inlets. Did you know we have an Oregon Inlet here in NC? Can be nasty and has a serious shoaling problem, leads to from major sport and commercial fishing grounds.
bfloyd4445
Guru
Oregon type bar in NC???...Naw, that sissy water in NC...
.....Which inlet is it? I heard mention in a conversation of a place in NC like you describe but don't remember the location. Just remember it surprised me cause I wasn't aware of anything like that in NC.
bfloyd4445
Guru
don't know, Did you watch the 2nd video of the charter boat Endeaver entering Depoe Bay? I thiunk they smacked the rocks twice on the way in.
Moonstruck
Guru
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To complicate matters, in relation to your direction of travel, waves seldom come from a direction that is the most comfortable for you. Quartering seas are usually the most uncomfortable and can be dangerous. For instance we use the Ft. Pierce Inlet. It is fairly deep, but not too wide and jettyed on both side. With winds out of the southeast or northeast against an ebbing tide there will be breakers diagonally across the inlet. That calls for some fast corrections. Try to get straight to take them squarely on the stern. Then apply power and turn back straight with the inlet. Do this until safely inside. The first time Lou came in that way her eyes were as big as saucers. That is when gobs of power is not too much.
Even running off shore it may be necessary to tack to get home. If the seas are not dangerous, the angle of attack may just be uncomfortable. Whatever it is getting use to the motion and characteristics of your boat is vitally important.
Even running off shore it may be necessary to tack to get home. If the seas are not dangerous, the angle of attack may just be uncomfortable. Whatever it is getting use to the motion and characteristics of your boat is vitally important.
caltexflanc
Guru
Oregon type bar in NC???...Naw, that sissy water in NC...
Which inlet is it? I heard mention in a conversation of a place in NC like you describe but don't remember the location. Just remember it surprised me cause I wasn't aware of anything like that in NC.
No, that's the name of the inlet : Oregon Inlet. You think they's rename one of the OR ones carolina Inlet just to reciprocate.
We have several here that are difficult to impossible in deep draft boats or require very precise local knowledge and the latest USACE surveys. Oregon Inlet has big economic implications both recreational and commercial fishing, so gets a lot of political attention. Hatteras inlet too, not quite as much traffic though.
This is a very inaccurate assumption. Even the smaller bodies of water here can develop closely spaced, steep, wind waves that can be very dangerous, particularly to boaters inexperienced in these conditions.
Certainly the big bodies of water-- San Juan Strait, the Strait of Georgia, Queen Charlotte Strait, Johnstone Strait, can get downright deadly to small boats when the wind kicks up.
But the smaller bays like Bellingham Bay can whip up into big, breaking,, closely-spaced waves on windy days. There have been boats-- not a lot fortunately-- that have Ben caught out in the following waves, broached, rolled over, and sunk in Bellingham Bay. The most recent I'm aware of was a 30-something foot commercial fishing boat that was lost with all hands. This inside a bay that most evenings looks like a dead flat lake.
And if the wind opposes the current, watch out because that's when it can really get serious. Given our high tidal range and resulting strong currents, wind forecasts become very important.
Given the waters that we boat in, which include Bellingham Bay, Rosario Strait, and the south end of the Strait of Georgia, we have set limits on the strength of the wind we will go out in. If the wind is from the SE-S-SW our limit is 20 knots. If the wind is from the N-NW our limit is 25 knots although a wind this strong must be going the same direction as the current. And we really need to want to go out to do so at the upper ends of our limits.
Obviously the forecasts and currents play a major role in our route and go-no go decisions when wind is or is likely to be a factor. The relative directions of the wind and current have a major effect on the conditions we will encounter. Local knowledge, which in this case we have been accumulating for the last 14 years (we've only just scratched the surface in this regard) is also an important factor in our decisions. If the wind is this and the current is that we have learned that in such and such a channel or bay, water conditions will be X.
To think that just because our inside waters are isolated from the ocean and the Pacific coast they will be relatively mild, think again.
Thanks Marin for that. I stand corrected. I have a lot to learn but this thread has started me thinking and visualizing. This is invaluable.This is a very inaccurate assumption. Even the smaller bodies of water here can develop closely spaced, steep, wind waves that can be very dangerous, particularly to boaters inexperienced in these conditions.
Certainly the big bodies of water-- San Juan Strait, the Strait of Georgia, Queen Charlotte Strait, Johnstone Strait, can get downright deadly to small boats when the wind kicks up.
But the smaller bays like Bellingham Bay can whip up into big, breaking,, closely-spaced waves on windy days. There have been boats-- not a lot fortunately-- that have Ben caught out in the following waves, broached, rolled over, and sunk in Bellingham Bay. The most recent I'm aware of was a 30-something foot commercial fishing boat that was lost with all hands. This inside a bay that most evenings looks like a dead flat lake.
And if the wind opposes the current, watch out because that's when it can really get serious. Given our high tidal range and resulting strong currents, wind forecasts become very important.
Given the waters that we boat in, which include Bellingham Bay, Rosario Strait, and the south end of the Strait of Georgia, we have set limits on the strength of the wind we will go out in. If the wind is from the SE-S-SW our limit is 20 knots. If the wind is from the N-NW our limit is 25 knots although a wind this strong must be going the same direction as the current. And we really need to want to go out to do so at the upper ends of our limits.
Obviously the forecasts and currents play a major role in our route and go-no go decisions when wind is or is likely to be a factor. The relative directions of the wind and current have a major effect on the conditions we will encounter. Local knowledge, which in this case we have been accumulating for the last 14 years (we've only just scratched the surface in this regard) is also an important factor in our decisions. If the wind is this and the current is that we have learned that in such and such a channel or bay, water conditions will be X.
To think that just because our inside waters are isolated from the ocean and the Pacific coast they will be relatively mild, think again.
To everyone else that posted, thank you. Please keep it coming. I'm taking notes.
Don't forget that even the experts-- of which I am not one--- had a first day on the water. Everyone starts at the bottom of the learning curve. In my opinion the best way to learn boating is to start boating. The Internet can be a valuable source of information but it can also so overload you with data and advice that a person can be intimidated into not doing anything because of a fear of not knowing enough to start.
So I say ignore all of it. Or at least treat it all as light reading for entertainment purposes but don't think it's all stuff you have to know before you dip a toe into the boating waters.
All the boaters (and pilots) I know and have tremendous respect for got into boating (and flying) long before Al Gore invented the Internet. They (and I) simply got a boat that made sense or appealed to them and started boating. You learn as you go. And if you find the boating thing is something you want to develop more, you maybe move up to a bigger or more capable boat and you keep boating and learning.
This is why when people have stopped at our boat in the marina and wanted to talk about our boat and how to get into this kind of boating I immediately send them off to the GB charter outfit at the head of the dock. I believe boating is something best learned-- particularly in the beginning-- by doing it, not by talking to people about it.
USCG Auxiliary boating classes are a great resource and there are books covering every aspect of boating one might be interested in. But in my opinion the more time a person spends messing about in a boat, be it a battered, 6hp, 12-foot Sears aluminum skiff that was the first boat I ever owned, or a GB like we have now, or the more capable boat that may lie in our future, and the less time they spend asking for Internet advise and even worse, reading it
))the better a boater thy will become.That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
bfloyd4445
Guru
....well said Marin.
