Boat Size Considerations
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Chrisjs wrote;
"you really need to consider what size is manageable for 2 persons."
One can't just "think up" the answer to that. But the experiences of others should be a fair guide but we are all very different. Wife's especially. Some wife's can hardly do anything and some practically take over the boat. My wife is eager to take the helm and run all the other stuff and many don't want any part of it. I remember a flying couple that fought so much over who was going to fly the airplane they had to get another plane. They rarely went separate ways but flew together constantly talking on the radio.
And for the skipper that has a woman that hasn't the desire to do much of anything (crew wise) they usually still do most or all of the cooking and most of the cleaning and many do more than their fair share of painting.
So the lady on the boat has a lot (perhaps more) to do with how big a boat a couple can handle than the man. Many yachtsmen yell at their wife's but/and I think they should be grateful that they come along at all. All the wife's aboard are "going where thou goest" and are on the boat because the man wants to be there. I don't know any couples where "she" is the one that wants to go boating and he goes along to be with her.
"you really need to consider what size is manageable for 2 persons."
One can't just "think up" the answer to that. But the experiences of others should be a fair guide but we are all very different. Wife's especially. Some wife's can hardly do anything and some practically take over the boat. My wife is eager to take the helm and run all the other stuff and many don't want any part of it. I remember a flying couple that fought so much over who was going to fly the airplane they had to get another plane. They rarely went separate ways but flew together constantly talking on the radio.
And for the skipper that has a woman that hasn't the desire to do much of anything (crew wise) they usually still do most or all of the cooking and most of the cleaning and many do more than their fair share of painting.
So the lady on the boat has a lot (perhaps more) to do with how big a boat a couple can handle than the man. Many yachtsmen yell at their wife's but/and I think they should be grateful that they come along at all. All the wife's aboard are "going where thou goest" and are on the boat because the man wants to be there. I don't know any couples where "she" is the one that wants to go boating and he goes along to be with her.
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Delia Rosa
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Actually, Dan and I are one of those couples.
He is an aeronautical engineer and used to do a lot of flying (towing gliders for the most part) in his spare time. I eventually convinced him that boating would be fun and something we could do together. In 2000 we purchased an Alberg 37, a lovely classic sailboat, and then in 2008 we moved over to the trawler world with our Sea Ranger 47.
I know he still misses flying though!
My wife generally "runs" the boat while I pay attention to nav. planning and mechanicals. She does make me dock the thing though, and usually I am the one who stays up all night on those long runs!! On a 50ft boat it really needs to be a team effort for comfort and safety. As for the cooking and cleaning, we generally share the latter. I guess if you stay at the dock none of this matters!!
caltexflanc
Guru
We are one of those couples for sure, though equal in our enthusiasm; Ann was every bit as much a driving force in going cruising or any other "let's go boating" adventure. When we lived in Boca Raton for a short while, she'd rent a small walk-around outboard boat and take her visiting friends and family on boat rides while I was at work.
Operating and maintenace-repair Ergonomics, as mentioned are very important, we are not the most adept, so need all the help we can get from the boat. But just the two of us have cruised many many thousands of miles quite happily, bumbling our way through paradise.
If cruising as a couple, both partners must have equal voice in choice of boat, and choice of days to go boating. Both must know at least the basics of running the boat.
Gosh, so many times in our cruising, we'd meet these unhappy women who were left out of the decision making process, or had never had the opportunity to go cruising before the boat-buying decision was made.
mattkab
Senior Member
Lots of good responses by people with much more experience than I. Just adding my $.02:
Our boats in order of ownership:
28' Catalina Sailboat. Our first "real" boat, my wife and I picked the boat together - she wanted a "real head" and "warmth"; I wanted a sailboat. Nothing wrong with the boat, but we felt it was too small for ourselves plus another couple of friends for any length of time. We only owned it for just over a year
30' Catalina Sailboat. We purchased this boat because we wanted more room. Best decision we made -- we used the boat much more often, and even had guests stay aboard on some overnights.
28' Bayliner Flybridge. I wanted to get a fishing boat, and my wife didn't want to spend $20k on a boat that she didn't want to go out on (remember the "real head"?). Also I broke my elbow, and we had a baby.. so it made sense to sell the sailboat and downsize to a day-tripper. My wife hated this boat. But we used it for daytrips and fishing and to see if we liked powerboating.
34' CHB. We did like powerboating, but neither of us liked going fast -- we had twin 280HP engines, and "cruised" at 6kts (a waste). And our daughter grew up a bit and loves spending the night aboard - so having a longer-range cruiser made sense. Our current boat kinda fell into our laps (friend of a friend was selling for a steal). We have only had it for about a year, but it is MUCH more comfortable than the Bayliner.
So... what did all of this teach us?
First, 28' is too small for how we use our boat. A 28' sailboat, and a 28' flybridge both were too small. And secondly, 30-35' is substantially bigger than a 28, but isn't intimidating.
I sat at the helm of some 40s and 45's at the boat show, and thought about docking with a cross wind or current and almost cried. But for a live-aboard (not in our near-term plans) it would be just about perfect IMO.
36-38 seems like just about the perfect size to me -- The one thing we don't like about the current boat is that it only has one stateroom, and to get it in the configuration we like we need to move up to that size range.
Phil Fill
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The creature comforts and the size should be left more to the female, and also the final final say on the boat. If the female does not have the majority and last say on the boat its doubtful that she will enjoy the boat much less come a long. When looking at boats best to follow her lead, and take note of her likes and dislikes. Female are more interested in creature comforts, and safety of the boat. Make sure you understand, her idea future plan of boating as compared to yours.
The only reason we been a live aboad for 15+ years is because my wife had the final say, its her fault we are a live aboard, so she can not cmplain.
The only reason we been a live aboad for 15+ years is because my wife had the final say, its her fault we are a live aboard, so she can not cmplain.
Markpierce - Love your boat. Looked at the Seahorse Marine Diesel Ducks and saw they made the Coot also. Not sure why they call it a Coot though. Appreciate your input!
I think you meant Wade. Thank you Pau Hana for the offer. Where do you moor your boat?
Peter B - I definitely don't disagree with you but if we bought our boat now, I don't think we would use it enough with working full time AND using our RV. I started retirement planning pretty early and put a good chunk of our income into it. According to our retirement planner, we should actually have a better income at retirement than now. Will that be enough? I dunno but am planning on about $2K per month in maintenance and fuel plus a lump-sum reserve set aside for the unexpected. The world could blow up tomorrow but we still gotta plan and keep ourselves healthy.
Yes I have seen that trend as well. What we have found is that we both absolutely LOVE being on the water. But I guess if this boating thing doesn't work out, we'll find out soon enough (through chartering) and have the income to be able to do something else.
Thank you Caltexflanc. What you say is absolutely correct. I have spoken to charter companies and they tell me if we don't have the experience, we can take along a captain. When that captain decides we can handle the boat, we can drop him/her off and continue on our charter. I'm leaning more toward an actual multi-day training session however where we stay on the boat and each day, the captain trains us in all the aspects of operating that boat. I believe once we have the training in the similar size boat we'd be chartering, they would allow us to charter other boats that were similar. Realize we may need to do this on a single and a twin but that's ok.
Chrisjs - yes I have been concerned with boat handling with just the two of us. Some boats have the full-width salon's so no side decks. I often wonder if that is an issue to line handling. One owner on this forum has a Helmsman 38 PH (beautiful boat, BTW) so maybe they can shed some light on this subject.
On this note, we are building a list of what is important to each of us separately. We'll then go over and see what matches and what doesn't. For what doesn't match, she'll probably get her way.
Thank you, Mattkab. Appreciate you sharing your journey. These real life experiences are valuable.
Phil Fill - I agree. When the wife and I talk about boats, she's always looking at it from the comfort, homey-ness of the boat while I'm looking at the mechanical/design perspective. I think though we balance each other out.The creature comforts and the size should be left more to the female, and also the final final say on the boat. If the female does not have the majority and last say on the boat its doubtful that she will enjoy the boat much less come a long. When looking at boats best to follow her lead, and take note of her likes and dislikes. Female are more interested in creature comforts, and safety of the boat. Make sure you understand, her idea future plan of boating as compared to yours.
The only reason we been a live aboad for 15+ years is because my wife had the final say, its her fault we are a live aboard, so she can not cmplain.
Really appreciate everyone's input.
caltexflanc
Guru
Wade and Maureen, you certainly sound like you have your heads on straight about this. Best of good fortune as you move forward.
She will become more focused on operational ergonomics as you do more boating. In our case, one example for instance is that drove the desire for walk around decks on both our parts. I was determined to have walk in engine rooms because I am big and clumsy, but a side benefit is that they became more welcoming to her.. she can happily do the pre-departure check list, check the batteries etc whereas there was no way she was crawling into the Er of other boats we saw. Other wives are more adventurous on that front.
Anyway, have fun on the journey!
She will become more focused on operational ergonomics as you do more boating. In our case, one example for instance is that drove the desire for walk around decks on both our parts. I was determined to have walk in engine rooms because I am big and clumsy, but a side benefit is that they became more welcoming to her.. she can happily do the pre-departure check list, check the batteries etc whereas there was no way she was crawling into the Er of other boats we saw. Other wives are more adventurous on that front.
Anyway, have fun on the journey!
markpierce
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Thanks for the vote of confidence, Caltexflanc. It's funny you should mention stand-up engine rooms because that's on my list. It would be very nice to have but definitely not in prevalence out there.
Ungainly: 1. Lacking grace or ease of movement or form; clumsy. 2. Difficult to move or use; unwieldy. Hmmm...doesn't seem like it fits to me. Great lines, stout, strong looks, efficient...
CPseudonym
Moderator Emeritus
Ungainly: 1. Lacking grace or ease of movement or form; clumsy. 2. Difficult to move or use; unwieldy. Hmmm...doesn't seem like it fits to me. Great lines, stout, strong looks, efficient...
Wade, Mark has alluded in the past that the coot may be at the helm
Just kidding Mark
Wade, Mark has alluded in the past that the coot may be at the helm
Just kidding Mark
I didn't know Mark well enough to suggest that. My wife and I are quite capable of handing our boat (60'LOA) by ourselves. We frequently pass through the locks on the Snake and Columbia River without any issues and, in fact, last year on our return trip from Portland, OR, we were the last of 6 boats going into John Day Lock and the first to call in that we were secured to the bollard.
Here's a shot as we're entering one of the locks so you can see they're no tiny thing. They're about 86' wide, ~800' long with an average lift somewhere around 100'...
and a shot of my Admiral as she's getting us tied to the bollard....
But, I must admit/brag that I have the best deckhand a skipper could ask for.
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Yup- I meant Wade
We're on Lake Union, westside, about a mile south of the Fremont Bridge. I'll PM you my phone number and address.
On another note, the charter thing is not a problem (as you've found out). The biggest challenge has been overcome- your attitude. Having the right attitude with regards to your light experience is critical- I've run into too many owners that are under the firm belief that "I can afford the boat, so I can drive the boat".
By the way, I have the best 1st mate ever!
We're on Lake Union, westside, about a mile south of the Fremont Bridge. I'll PM you my phone number and address.
On another note, the charter thing is not a problem (as you've found out). The biggest challenge has been overcome- your attitude. Having the right attitude with regards to your light experience is critical- I've run into too many owners that are under the firm belief that "I can afford the boat, so I can drive the boat".
By the way, I have the best 1st mate ever!
markpierce
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Yeah, tell me about it. Celebration in the Coot's saloon (hah, hah):Wade, Mark has alluded in the past that the coot may be at the helm
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IslandEagle
Senior Member
Hi Wade,
This has been a fun thread to watch. I'll throw in a few ideas too:
1) Large boats can be fun, no question about it. But when you get over 60 feet, dockage can be difficult to come by in certain areas. You should definitely have a chat with marinas in the area you keep the boat.
2) Ditto that for boatyards. If you have a 100,000 Lb + boat, that limits the number of Travelifts that can handle her. Wooden boat? Then you need a real marine railway.
3) Do you like boathandling? The larger you get, the more you have to like it. Myself, I love setting up springlines, watching the wind, and putting Island Eagle where she's supposed to be. But for other people, this would be no fun at all, in fact it would be downright terrifying.
So with your requirements in mind, there are two boats that I would be directing you to take a look at:
First is the DeFever 44/44+5.
These are nice, roomy double cabin boats, not particularly fancy but very well-built. The aft cabin is full-beam, which gives you a very liveable "back porch" on the aft deck. The cabins are well-separated, which is great if you have kids&grandkids (some of them have 4 bunks up front as well). One nice things is that the engineroom has close to full headroom. The 44+5 is the exact same boat with a 5 foot cockpit added on. There are usually about a dozen for sale on YW at any given time.
Second is the Grand Banks 49 Classic.
These were the "top of the line" Grand Banks when they were built, and they show it. They have two cabins forward, which is nice. The interior and systems were top-notch for the time, and many have been well maintained and lightly used. The engineroom is very roomy and full-headroom. Although they are now mostly about 25 years old, they are beautiful boats and very reasonably priced.
Have fun,
Scott Welch
Island Eagle
This has been a fun thread to watch. I'll throw in a few ideas too:
1) Large boats can be fun, no question about it. But when you get over 60 feet, dockage can be difficult to come by in certain areas. You should definitely have a chat with marinas in the area you keep the boat.
2) Ditto that for boatyards. If you have a 100,000 Lb + boat, that limits the number of Travelifts that can handle her. Wooden boat? Then you need a real marine railway.
3) Do you like boathandling? The larger you get, the more you have to like it. Myself, I love setting up springlines, watching the wind, and putting Island Eagle where she's supposed to be. But for other people, this would be no fun at all, in fact it would be downright terrifying.
So with your requirements in mind, there are two boats that I would be directing you to take a look at:
First is the DeFever 44/44+5.
These are nice, roomy double cabin boats, not particularly fancy but very well-built. The aft cabin is full-beam, which gives you a very liveable "back porch" on the aft deck. The cabins are well-separated, which is great if you have kids&grandkids (some of them have 4 bunks up front as well). One nice things is that the engineroom has close to full headroom. The 44+5 is the exact same boat with a 5 foot cockpit added on. There are usually about a dozen for sale on YW at any given time.
Second is the Grand Banks 49 Classic.
These were the "top of the line" Grand Banks when they were built, and they show it. They have two cabins forward, which is nice. The interior and systems were top-notch for the time, and many have been well maintained and lightly used. The engineroom is very roomy and full-headroom. Although they are now mostly about 25 years old, they are beautiful boats and very reasonably priced.
Have fun,
Scott Welch
Island Eagle
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caltexflanc
Guru
Great post Scott. We chartered both a GB 49 Classic and an even rarer 49 motoryacht, both in very beautiful condition. I almost bought the MY to keep it in the fleet until we were ready to go cruising, but chickened out. We learned/confirmed from those boats that we wanted a full height engine room vs the stoop or crawl ins we had been on before, a down galley, and full walk around decks and a big flying bridge. The MY had a down galley with convertible dinette. All of our "trawlering" also confirmed with Ann that if we were going to be full time live aboards she wanted as much "real" furniture as possible (which we have now in our salon and on the aft deck) rather than permanent built-ins. Also an aft master cabin. All things which many other happy cruisers either feel quite differently about or don't care about.
I love the idea of a wooden boat but not the upkeep. I hear that wooden boats are very quiet underway due to the properties of wood being a good insulator.
I guess I don't know but the way my mind works, the challenge of bringing a larger boat in right where I want it is appealing.
Is this the flush-deck model you're referring to? If so, I have had my eye on this model as well. I find it interesting however that boat manufacturers seem to mimic each other's design. For example, this model is very similar to the Marine Trader 50 that we also like very much. Who made which model first I do not know but both have the stretched salon as well. Both have a stand up engine room but the MT50 splits the engine room with a passageway so access to one side of each engine is more limited. I like the DeFever design better.
I'll admit a Grand Banks has a special place for me as it is the first large boat I got a ride in when I was a little kid. If I recall it was a 42 foot Classic but it was long ago so I'm not sure. The only thing we're not really fond of is the aft cabin that is not a full width as it takes away the large aft deck space. That deck space is important to us.
Thank you, Scott. Appreciate the pointers. If you have any other boats that you think is worth looking into, I'd be appreciative of your advice. Of course that goes for all the TF members.
IslandEagle
Senior Member
The "Motor Yacht" version of the GB Classic has a full-width aft cabin:
1987 Grand Banks Motoryacht / 3 Strm / Stabilized Power Boat For
By the way, the aft-vs-forward cabin thread (http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/aft-versus-forward-cabin-9140.html) is well worth reading.
Scott Welch
Island Eagle
The negative aspect of a full-width aft cabin for us is the lack of a full walkaround deck. That is an absolute must-have for any cruising boat we own and we will happily accept an aft cabin that is a fewf feet narrower in order to have a full walkaround deck. The full width cabin that forces you to step up even higher at the back third of the boat is very limiting in our minds. And apparently in a lot of others' minds. The GB Motoryacht configuration is the least popular of all the GB layouts.
markpierce
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I'm totally with Marin regarding the importance/convenience of a walk-around deck. Underneath the 16-inch-wide deck of the Coot are the water and fuel tanks, so the less-than-beam-width saloon hasn't really given up any floor space because of the deck.
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When we were shopping for a trawler several years ago we explored about 25 brokerage vessels, not counting the many that we checked out at boat shows. Easily came to the same conclusion that side decks are invaluable in terms of docking, picking up moorings, and being able to get from bow to stern in a hurry. Not sure I understand Mark's point about floor space, because there is definitely a trade-off in terms of salon space given over to side decks. I would also strongly go in favor of complete walk around decks versus the lop-sided approach that limits access to only the port or starboard side. One simple example of how important the water level side decks are is when picking up a mooring, especially one without a pick up stick. Our bow is too high to reach a mooring. The only way that works is to pick up mid ships with a line then walk the line forward to the bow. Not possible without the side decks. We ended up with a Selene 47 and have cruised extensively. I would never buy a vessel without side decks unless it was primarily for dock use.
Something to be aware of, at least with GBs--- I can't speak for other makes--- is that a full-walkaround deck does not constrict the total width of the aft cabin. It narrows by a bit the part above the level of the deck. But below the level of the deck, the cabin goes all the way out to the side of the hull.
So this means that for the berths, cabinets, drawers, shelves, etc, the cabin is the full width of the boat. The only part that is narrower due to the side decks is the airspace you are occupying when you are standing up.
It's even a benefit in the aft head. There are shelves behind the toilet that occupy the space under the deck. One of these, after reinforcing, proved the perfect spot for the boat's ten gallon hot water heater.
The first photo below shows the sets of drawers and the shelf that extend back under the deck all the way to the hull. The second photo show the queen berth in the aft cabin on the opposite side. There is a convenient shelf between the outside edge of the berth and the hull which holds all sorts of things including our Bose iPod SoundDock.
So this means that for the berths, cabinets, drawers, shelves, etc, the cabin is the full width of the boat. The only part that is narrower due to the side decks is the airspace you are occupying when you are standing up.
It's even a benefit in the aft head. There are shelves behind the toilet that occupy the space under the deck. One of these, after reinforcing, proved the perfect spot for the boat's ten gallon hot water heater.
The first photo below shows the sets of drawers and the shelf that extend back under the deck all the way to the hull. The second photo show the queen berth in the aft cabin on the opposite side. There is a convenient shelf between the outside edge of the berth and the hull which holds all sorts of things including our Bose iPod SoundDock.
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Nomad Willy
Guru
We have the walk around side decks and wish we had the cabin room. Bearing significantly on that statement is the fact that we have a small 30' boat. We should have the Voyager model Willard w it's widebody aft section but I wouldn't trade all the custom stuff we put into Willy to get the space.
With the extra space I'd install a diesel stove (like a Dickinson) and turn our L settee into a proper dinette. I hate the L settee.
With the extra space I'd install a diesel stove (like a Dickinson) and turn our L settee into a proper dinette. I hate the L settee.
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CPseudonym
Moderator Emeritus
Interesting observation Eric. Our boats are similar in size and find the dinette to be a huge waste of otherwise usable floor space in our small cabin. We'd far prefer a settee like in Willy. It would make access to the v berth far more comfortable. Unlike Willy though, Bliss has a large spacious canvas and eisinglass enclosed cockpit that adds significantly to our living area.
For us, and again we have no experience in actual boating like this, we do like the full width salon based on the boats we've been aboard at the boat shows. I was kinda hoping the TF member with the Helmsman 38 Pilothouse would chime in because my concerns are also with accessibility when mooring/docking. I just don't know if that's an issue. I know the sales guy for the Helmsman said it wasn't a big deal but I dunno. Without the side decks, I'm picturing Maureen at the stern while I bring the boat in. When we get near the dock, come to a stop, I hop out and handle the bow, she hops out and ties the stern. Is that how that would work? Or does she hop out, runs forward secures the bow while I gently power the stern in and hop out and secure that? Sounds good in my head but...
The full width aft stateroom is nice because the aft deck is what is important to us. The bedroom space is a nice plus but it doesn't look like there a significant difference between the full aft deck or the narrower one. It's just the desk space above. Having to step up to the aft decks from the side decks is less desirable hence my interest in the flush-deck models.
The full width aft stateroom is nice because the aft deck is what is important to us. The bedroom space is a nice plus but it doesn't look like there a significant difference between the full aft deck or the narrower one. It's just the desk space above. Having to step up to the aft decks from the side decks is less desirable hence my interest in the flush-deck models.
caltexflanc
Guru
Having used both the 49 MY and "Classic" by GB fairly extensively, and being big fans of walk around decks, I have to say that the set up on the MY version was not onerous at all, it was still very easy to get all around the boat with a very modest step up aft. The real ergonomic trade off was the lack of a small cock pit but in return you got a very spacious deck above the master SR which acted as an extension to the Flying bridge, and a third day head below.
CPseudonym
Moderator Emeritus
Wade the walk around decks or sun deck vs cockpit issues are really something personal to every boat owner. How YOU intend to use the boat is the important part. Side decks make line handling easier yes, but how much time do you plan on spending handling lines? I have side decks that don't get used at all for docking and I manage to tie up just fine.
If you fish you definitely want a cockpit. If not a sun deck would seem to be very desirable. The extra interior room would be a nice bonus too. If no side decks you will find a way to make it work just like all the other wide body owners do IMO. Charter both and spend a few days on each to see the pluses and minuses.
If you fish you definitely want a cockpit. If not a sun deck would seem to be very desirable. The extra interior room would be a nice bonus too. If no side decks you will find a way to make it work just like all the other wide body owners do IMO. Charter both and spend a few days on each to see the pluses and minuses.
