Rough Water Seamanship

I hate to put a damper on this, but in reading some of the posts on here, I see a few things that have not been said.

I learned my seamanship, from my Grandfather who steamed the Great Lakes for 50 years. He last vessel was the Arthur B Homer, which ended up being 825 ft with a beam of 75 ft.

In his time, he steamed in some of the worst weather known to man. Case in point, the same Storm which took the Edmund Fitzgerald down. (Winds at 58 mph, with gusts up to 70 mph and wave from 20 ft to 45 ft.)

As a Captain, my Grandfather had the skill to bring his crew and his vessel home by following simple rules.

A Captain first should know his vessel and what it can do and what it cannot do.

A Captain should know what his grew is capable of doing under any conditions. (The weakest link rule)

A Captain is not only the Captain he is also a replacement for all the crew. (He can do the job of each grew member if needed)

A Captain watches everything. The Vessel, the weather, the crew, the course, the depth, the position and the vessel’s surroundings.

A Captain never stops thinking aboard his vessel, because if he does his vessel and crew are doomed.

A Captain decide when to leave port and if it safe for his vessel and crew to do so.

A Captain always must obey the first rule of being a Captain. The vessel and crew come first and never lose respect for the body of water you are sailing in.

To the point of cruising in bad weather, I agree that hands on experience is good for anyone, but in many cases well experience Captain’s have went down with their vessels because of their experience.

2 such cases come to mind. Captain McSorley of the Fitz and Captain Walbridge of the Bounty. Both were experience Captains and both had been in plenty of bad storms, but yet both are no longer here. So that should make us all wonder why?

With today’s technology we can see storms coming with plenty of time to move out of its path. Even if you have a Flash storm pop up on you, there are always signs of it coming first before it hits. So as a Captain of your vessel you should be aware of that and take the right action to get out of it’s way.

I’ll use this as an example. On the Great Lakes you can be in flat calm on a sunny day with no wind. You and your friends are fishing and having a great time. As you fish you notice the blue water starting to turn green. You do not pay attention to that first sign. Some time later the wind starts to pick up and you start getting light chops, but yet you and your friends keep right on fishing. The next thing you know you are in 6 ft waves and you are hammering your vessel to get into port to beat the storm coming down on you.

My Point is this. As a Captain of your vessel, you should read those signs and take their warning. The Fish will always be there you may not be.

The best way to handle a vessel in a storm is NOT TO BE IN ONE! Even on the long passenger makers, they steer clear of storms, because a experience Captain knows how to avoid them and dose not place his vessel or his crew in danger.

As my Grandfather told me many times, “If you do find yourself in a storm. Let your vessel roll with until the storm sets you free. If you fight that storm it will beat you no matter how good you think your are.”

As I said. Hands on experience is good for anyone, but what kind of hands on experience should be the question?

By no means am I trying to disrespect anyone that has posted their thoughts on this subject. I am simply sharing what I learned from a Captain with 50 years of sailing under his belt and always brought his vessel and crew home safely. That says something about him in may opinion.
H Foster

HFoster, Good post. Can't argue with any of that. Avoidance is the best policy. That being said, I am sure that your grandfather had been caught by some rough conditions unaware they were coming. He had the skills necessary to handle the situation. Sudden thunderstorms on the Chesapeake, local wind shifts in the Gulf Stream, or storms arriving before predicted happen. For the safety of the vessel and crew, getting the skills to handle these situations is critical.

hfoster said:

I hate to put a damper on this, but in reading some of the posts on here, I see a few things that have not been said.

I learned my seamanship, from my Grandfather who steamed the Great Lakes for 50 years. He last vessel was the Arthur B Homer, which ended up being 825 ft with a beam of 75 ft.

In his time, he steamed in some of the worst weather known to man. Case in point, the same Storm which took the Edmund Fitzgerald down. (Winds at 58 mph, with gusts up to 70 mph and wave from 20 ft to 45 ft.)

As a Captain, my Grandfather had the skill to bring his crew and his vessel home by following simple rules.

A Captain first should know his vessel and what it can do and what it cannot do.

A Captain should know what his grew is capable of doing under any conditions. (The weakest link rule)

A Captain is not only the Captain he is also a replacement for all the crew. (He can do the job of each grew member if needed)

A Captain watches everything. The Vessel, the weather, the crew, the course, the depth, the position and the vessel’s surroundings.

A Captain never stops thinking aboard his vessel, because if he does his vessel and crew are doomed.

A Captain decide when to leave port and if it safe for his vessel and crew to do so.

A Captain always must obey the first rule of being a Captain. The vessel and crew come first and never lose respect for the body of water you are sailing in.

To the point of cruising in bad weather, I agree that hands on experience is good for anyone, but in many cases well experience Captain’s have went down with their vessels because of their experience.

2 such cases come to mind. Captain McSorley of the Fitz and Captain Walbridge of the Bounty. Both were experience Captains and both had been in plenty of bad storms, but yet both are no longer here. So that should make us all wonder why?

With today’s technology we can see storms coming with plenty of time to move out of its path. Even if you have a Flash storm pop up on you, there are always signs of it coming first before it hits. So as a Captain of your vessel you should be aware of that and take the right action to get out of it’s way.

I’ll use this as an example. On the Great Lakes you can be in flat calm on a sunny day with no wind. You and your friends are fishing and having a great time. As you fish you notice the blue water starting to turn green. You do not pay attention to that first sign. Some time later the wind starts to pick up and you start getting light chops, but yet you and your friends keep right on fishing. The next thing you know you are in 6 ft waves and you are hammering your vessel to get into port to beat the storm coming down on you.

My Point is this. As a Captain of your vessel, you should read those signs and take their warning. The Fish will always be there you may not be.

The best way to handle a vessel in a storm is NOT TO BE IN ONE! Even on the long passenger makers, they steer clear of storms, because a experience Captain knows how to avoid them and dose not place his vessel or his crew in danger.

As my Grandfather told me many times, “If you do find yourself in a storm. Let your vessel roll with until the storm sets you free. If you fight that storm it will beat you no matter how good you think your are.”

As I said. Hands on experience is good for anyone, but what kind of hands on experience should be the question?

By no means am I trying to disrespect anyone that has posted their thoughts on this subject. I am simply sharing what I learned from a Captain with 50 years of sailing under his belt and always brought his vessel and crew home safely. That says something about him in may opinion.
H Foster

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Points in FACT! - Good post hfoster! Thanks!! - Art

Moonstruck:

Not to disagree with you, but in your post you proved my point my friend. (Well my Grandfather's point.)

In your post you stated

(Sudden thunderstorms on the Chesapeake, local wind shifts in the Gulf Stream or storms arriving before predicted)

Ok let's take those. You mean to tell me you cannot see clouds forming? You can not feel the wind shift or see it shift on one of your Flags? Or you cannot feel the wetness in the air before a thunderstorm? Or you cannot see the presure drop?

These are all signs of a storm before the storm hits my friend and that was my Grandfather's point. Watch everything and when you see those signs move to a safer place. Sure you will hit chops and wind but it will not be as bad if you stay in the path of it and you will be able to handle your vessel easier.

Just by moving out to the side of a on coming storm you save your vessel from taking heavier waves, and by a Captain reading those sign before that storm hits he has already taken the right action for the safety of his vessel and it's crew.

And to your point of my Grandfather be caught unaware of rough waters. The answer is no. By him being aware and watching the sky, the water, the presure the wind and so forth, he would know something was coming. Then he would take the right steps to unsure his vessel's safety and his crew.

Case in point to that fact. The Storm that took the Fitz down. The Homer was downbound the same as the Fitz and the Aurthur B. Anderson. When the wind shifted my Grandfather turned and went upbound and circled back and missed the full force of the storm. Now if he would not have seen that sign of the wind shift, we just may have been talking about how the Big Fitz and it's Sisiter ship the Homer went down in the same storm.

The whole point of this my friend is how to ride out a storm with experience. No matter how experience you are as a captain. No one can tell what a storm will do. You can handle your vessel right every time in bad seas and still end up on the bottom. But by watching for the signs and making the right move and moving to one side of that storm in the amount of time you have before that storm hits you, you will have a better chance of coming home and your vessel will not get beaten up.

Believe when I say. I do take your point of veiw to heart. We all can learn something all the time. And as Captains of our vessels no matter how small or big they are we always need to learn.

Thank you for your opinion Moonstruck. I like it and always welcome more my Friend

Happy cruising to you.

H. Foster

I can only add personal experience to this. If you boat on the Chesapeake in summer there will be few days without some clouds (mostly cumulus) in the sky. I have a 72 mile radar for checking thunderstorms. Storms sometimes form nearby or even over you. I have been offshore on the Atlantic coast when fierce winds built without a cloud in the sky. My point is when you do get caught, have the skills to return. Thunderstorms off the Florida coast are a regular occurrence. We just track them and move out of the way. We are fortunate to have the speed to do that.

Moonstruck

I agree with you, my friend in having the skills to get back home. I really believe we share the same thoughts on this issue. I just think we are saying the samething just in different ways is all.

Your points are well taken my friend and I thank you for sharing them with us.

Happy cruising to you.

H. Foster

The biggest problem with taking the bigger boats away from the dock in "rough" conditions is putting all the stuff away after you get back to the dock.

funangler said:

The biggest problem with taking the bigger boats away from the dock in "rough" conditions is putting all the stuff away after you get back to the dock.

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Amen to that!

One of my favorite boating aphorisms is " The best attribute of those with superior seamanship skills is that they don't put themselves in a position where they have to use them".

caltexflanc said:

One of my favorite boating aphorisms is " The best attribute of those with superior seamanship skills is that they don't put themselves in a position where they have to use them".

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That is the best way to say it. Good post

caltexflanc said:

One of my favorite boating aphorisms is " The best attribute of those with superior seamanship skills is that they don't put themselves in a position where they have to use them".

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As a surgeon said, " a skill of a surgeon is knowing when NOT to operate".
I get the point, but a minor quibble,how to develop those superior seamanship skills without "getting down and dirty". Those skills likely come from a broad experience you don`t get on a millpond. How to build those skills,without getting yourself into trouble? I suppose if you keep doing it long enough, nature throws up the challenges. Deal with those and you are on your way.

Just one other point re this simulator thing. No two boats behave quite the same in a seaway. A simulator could only approximate what your own boat will do in any given situation. Only by finding out in moderate conditions can you know how it will handle a following sea, weather from the stern quarters, beating into it, beam on, etc. You have to find out in your own boat.

BruceK said:

As a surgeon said, " a skill of a surgeon is knowing when NOT to operate".
I get the point, but a minor quibble,how to develop those superior seamanship skills without "getting down and dirty". Those skills likely come from a broad experience you don`t get on a millpond. How to build those skills,without getting yourself into trouble? I suppose if you keep doing it long enough, nature throws up the challenges. Deal with those and you are on your way.

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I think as Kevin pointed out...you have to seek those opportunities...you have to go out on days for no other reason but to build skills...you have to leave on voyages knowing it's going to be uncomfortable and a bit tricky but not very dangerous to deadly...

That's why most rec boaters never develop those skills...but then again they rarely need them either if they are very cautious.

Over the years I built my flying skills and confidence by flying along with accomplished pilots in their planes or getting them to fly along with me. My IFR skills and ability to fly into busy complex airfields grew by leaps and bounds.
I also got some right seat time in some really nice planes.
I've used the same philosophy with boats by soliciting crew opportunities with experienced captains on deliveries. Getting hands on experience in a variety of boats-off-shore, in all types of weather is hard to beat when it comes to confidence levels. It took me to a level that I probably wouldn't have gotten to on my own.
Starting Monday I'm getting some 'right seat' time in a 80' inspected vessel with an accomplished captain. Not only will my skill and confidence levels increase but it's an opportunity to upgrade my 50 ton Masters to 100 ton and get a nice part time gig as captain of really nice boat.
Find a mentor. There are plenty of opportunities out there if you just look.

Anode's (Chip) got it. The best way is to apprentice in some sort of fashion. The Navy and Merchant Marine don't just toss the keys to an ensign, make them skipper and tell them, "hey get out there and figure it out as you go".

Wow!

The more we discuss this topic the more complicated it seems to get.

I completely agree that it would be great experience to apprentice with a seasoned captain. I completely agree that gaining experience in other peoples boats would be a great way to learn. That experience would add to the depth of our knowledge and make us much better captains.

All that said, if just take our own boats out for training on days that we would normally stay in port we will learn. We will build the skills and the confidence to tackle bad weather when it happens.

I can promise this. We can watch the weather forecast like a hawk. We can watch the bouys in real time. Even doing all that, we will sooner or later, get caught in a rough sea situation.

We can either experience it on our terms a little at a time, or we can learn on the fly, its our choice.

ksanders said:

All that said, if just take our own boats out for training on days that we would normally stay in port we will learn.

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"Necessity is the mother of invention."

I agree with much of what you say but am considering the environment you operate in. If you waited for the perfect day,( no wind, greasy seas, bright sun, etc.) you probably would take your boat out about 10 days a year.

If you want to enjoy all that boating has to offer, you must go out in conditions that most would not. Rain, wind, snotty seas, won't stop you as that is what you are used to.

This is not the case for most of us on the Forum. We live in an entirely different marine environment. It is not necessary (necessity) for most of us to practice (invent) in conditions such as you describe. So why would we intentionally expose ourselves to conditions that we probably won't see in 2 lifetimes? You, on the other hand, most likely will.

Agreed...most boaters usually say that boats will take more than the skipper...so make her shipshape and take her out whenever you feel like you can learn somethng in reasonable safety.

Apprenticing is great...but not always available and at some point you still have to test yourself on your boat.

For a lot of boaters the decision is not whether to go out in snotty weather but whether to go out at all. I can't count the number of boats in our marina that I have literally never seen untied from the dock. These are (apparently) seaworthy boats that get looked after, just never used. It seems to me the important decision is to actually use the boat. Once that decision is made then by extension you will find yourself out in condtions that aren't dead calm with the sun shining.

SeaHorse II said:

"Necessity is the mother of invention."

I agree with much of what you say but am considering the environment you operate in. If you waited for the perfect day,( no wind, greasy seas, bright sun, etc.) you probably would take your boat out about 10 days a year.

If you want to enjoy all that boating has to offer, you must go out in conditions that most would not. Rain, wind, snotty seas, won't stop you as that is what you are used to.

This is not the case for most of us on the Forum. We live in an entirely different marine environment. It is not necessary (necessity) for most of us to practice (invent) in conditions such as you describe. So why would we intentionally expose ourselves to conditions that we probably won't see in 2 lifetimes? You, on the other hand, most likely will.

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Its sad but true. Few people know how badly I want to move this boat to a warmer climate, with sunny days, and calm waters.

Last month on Passagemaker they had a write up about the ICW. I would love to go there and see that.

All my years growing up I was out on New England coastal waters so very often... in many different types of craft - and I loved it! At that time I didn't realize the grand implications my innate sea training would amount to for the rest of my life. While growing up it all just seemed regular to me.

When encountered, rough water to any Captain is very serious as well as being an exhilarating boat handling challenge. That said... NO Captain should ever purposefully try to enter into storm paths and must always make sure the boat can handle whatever may occur. (Bounty's Captain was DEAD wrong in his actions - Period!)

I can understand how boat owners who did not have my training/experience on the water in boats would like to learn boat handling by taking their boats out and into some weather conditions. And, to a certain extent they are right to do their best to learn boat handling in sea conditions. But, they must never underestimate the power of the sea. What seem mildly rough conditions can turn really nasty quicker than a wink!

All I can say is please be careful and don't push your boat or your capabilities beyond their limits!

Best Luck to all Boaters! - Art

After reading through this several times I find I'm in the same boat (bad pun!!) as Kevin Sanders....if you really want to learn how your boat handles bad sea conditions you must experience bad sea conditions.

Anyone can pilot a boat when the water is flat and the winds are light. You don't learn anything on those days beyond steering the boat.

I grew up on Lake Huron and we'd be out in a 16' boat in 3'-4' waves. Smart? Probably not, but we were too young/dumb to know better. What those experiences did was teach us how to handle waves and wind.

Someone mentioned that boats are capable of more than the skippers when it comes to handling rough seas. IMO the only way to find out what you boat is capable of (and what you're capable of) is to get out there when it's snotty. That not only builds your confidence level, it builds you competence level and both tend to make you a better skipper.

Art said:

All my years growing up I was out on New England coastal waters so very often... in many different types of craft - and I loved it! At that time I didn't realize the grand implications my innate sea training would amount to for the rest of my life. While growing up it all just seemed regular to me.

When encountered, rough water to any Captain is very serious as well as being an exhilarating boat handling challenge. That said... NO Captain should ever purposefully try to enter into storm paths and must always make sure the boat can handle whatever may occur. (Bounty's Captain was DEAD wrong in his actions - Period!)

I can understand how boat owners who did not have my training/experience on the water in boats would like to learn boat handling by taking their boats out and into some weather conditions. And, to a certain extent they are right to do their best to learn boat handling in sea conditions. But, they must never underestimate the power of the sea. What seem mildly rough conditions can turn really nasty quicker than a wink!

All I can say is please be careful and don't push your boat or your capabilities beyond their limits!

Best Luck to all Boaters! - Art

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Great and powerful post Art! I will only add this to it my friend.

No 2 storms are the same. No 2 waves are the same. The actions you take in 1 storm to get you through it, just may put you on the bottom in the next storm!

Many of Captains with many years under their belt are on the bottom. God rest their souls!

hfoster said:

Great and powerful post Art! I will only add this to it my friend.

No 2 storms are the same. No 2 waves are the same. The actions you take in 1 storm to get you through it, just may put you on the bottom in the next storm!

Many of Captains with many years under their belt are on the bottom. God rest their souls!

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YES!

Experience, experience, experience

I'm in the boat with Kevin on learning by pushing the envelope. There are a couple of things to consider when your pushing the envelope, one of which is your passengers and their safety. Do they understand the risk your submitting them to, and are they comfortable with it. If your scaring the crap out of them, do you have the right expose them to your learning experience. I have been guilty of taking risks with my family and friends in the interest of exploring and the thrill of pushing the envelope. I have been lucky as I have so far pulled it off. Looking back at some of my adventures, a simple mechanical failure would have turned a exciting adventure into something far more serious. Adventure is an important part of my life but as I grow older, maybe wiser, I am more concerned with the comfort and safety of my guests. Running a simple 18' skiff in 4' seas is one kind of boat handling, a good starting point, managing a larger slower responding boat a much different experience. There are many things that can go wrong on larger vessels that effect there ability to remain under control. A large part of rough water seamanship is knowing the condition of your vessel and what to do when equipment fails, as it will at some point. We can all think of things that can go wrong and I agree it's good to think and plan for handling emergencies. If the bow hatches on Kevins boat had failed or accidentally been left unsecured, water washing over his bow would have become a very serious problem in a few seconds. If the hatches were unsecured the covers could be ripped off and now you would have a four square ft hole in the deck filling the boat with water possibly two of them. It would be good to have a plan in mind ahead of if this were to occur. A six inch exhaust hose fails and begins to fill your engine room with water, a battery shorts and causes a fire. These may be easy to control in calm conditions and impossible when it's rough. When pushing the limits there's more to this than just boat handling.

Scary said:

I'm in the boat with Kevin on learning by pushing the envelope. There are a couple of things to consider when your pushing the envelope, one of which is your passengers and their safety. Do they understand the risk your submitting them to, and are they comfortable with it. If your scaring the crap out of them, do you have the right expose them to your learning experience. I have been guilty of taking risks with my family and friends in the interest of exploring and the thrill of pushing the envelope. I have been lucky as I have so far pulled it off. Looking back at some of my adventures, a simple mechanical failure would have turned a exciting adventure into something far more serious. Adventure is an important part of my life but as I grow older, maybe wiser, I am more concerned with the comfort and safety of my guests. Running a simple 18' skiff in 4' seas is one kind of boat handling, a good starting point, managing a larger slower responding boat a much different experience. There are many things that can go wrong on larger vessels that effect there ability to remain under control. A large part of rough water seamanship is knowing the condition of your vessel and what to do when equipment fails, as it will at some point. We can all think of things that can go wrong and I agree it's good to think and plan for handling emergencies. If the bow hatches on Kevins boat had failed or accidentally been left unsecured, water washing over his bow would have become a very serious problem in a few seconds. If the hatches were unsecured the covers could be ripped off and now you would have a four square ft hole in the deck filling the boat with water possibly two of them. It would be good to have a plan in mind ahead of if this were to occur. A six inch exhaust hose fails and begins to fill your engine room with water, a battery shorts and causes a fire. These may be easy to control in calm conditions and impossible when it's rough. When pushing the limits there's more to this than just boat handling.

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Great post!!

There are some great comments and perspectives in this thread!

Regarding the issue of marine simulators, ksanders says: "Then we get into the reality of the simulator. For someone like you for example with your Camano at 31' you would not be well served to train on a commercial simulator set up for say a cargo ship. Its no stretch here to say that you could actually learn the wrong reactions to situations. Wrong reactions that could actually put yourself at risk in really rough weather. Your boat does not handle like a cargo ship in the same sea states. Theoretically I will concede that simulator training could have great benefit if it were designed for your boat, and replicating the interior of your vessel. Anything other than that and its just a video game."

Having attended commercial vessel electronic simulators in Seward, Seattle, San Diego, Baltimore, Newport and Dania, FL, I can tell you that Kevin is spot on.

Even if your boat is a cargo ship, the reality factor with electronic simulators in the marine world is that the better facilities/programs are in the 65-75% reality category. They just can't do as good a job as compared with flight simulators. While computer hardware has made tremendous strides over the years, and this has greatly improved marine electronic simulations, they are still very weak in close quarters ship/boat handling situations. Mainly because boat handling is primarily a process of visual assessment of various factors that produce the desired result.

The great advantage of electronic marine simulators is that you can stop the program at any point to train to specific factors. As such, they excel in teaching commercial ship bridge team interaction, how to deal with distraction, and early recognition of navigation issues. A small boat handling electronic simulation would never be as meaningful as just gaining experience from taking your own boat out, as amply mentioned in this thread.

After rereading many of the posts on her, I have realized that some of us are comparing apples to oranges, because we have NO baseline to go by.

What I mean by that is this. What is rough weather? 3 to 5 foot waves? 8 to 10 foot waves or higher? 3 to 5 foot waves too some is normal cruising while too others it is rough weather.

With that said, which sea condition should someone go out in to get their experience in?
That question alone brings up another baseline. Which is. What kind of a vessel are you in?

Now that brings up another baseline. When is it too dangerous to go out in rough seas in the vessel you have?

I really believe when we all posted our thoughts on this subject, we all were thinking of the vessel we have or had and the rough sea conditions that we have faced in the past in those vessels. But all of the vessels and condition were different.

I really do not think any of us would take a 16’ vessel out in 8’ waves just to learn how to handle that vessel in those kinds of waters.

So with out those baselines of, what is rough weather and what kind of vessel is in that rough weather, and when is it to dangerous, we all are just spitting into the wind.

I believe all of our goals here is to help each other and to share our skills with each other so we all can stay safe while doing something we all love to do. But for me I have realized without those baselines I really cannot give the right answer because I do not have all the facts!

I posted my thoughts based on the seamanship I learned from lager lake vessels Captains, and from the vessels I have owned and operated in fresh water and seawater, which in it’s self is apples to oranges.

So until I have those baselines, I will reframe from posting on this issue, in fear of giving bad advice to someone!


Happy and safe cruising to all of you!

H. Foster

hfoster said:

After rereading many of the posts on her, I have realized that some of us are comparing apples to oranges, because we have NO baseline to go by.

What I mean by that is this. What is rough weather? 3 to 5 foot waves? 8 to 10 foot waves or higher? 3 to 5 foot waves too some is normal cruising while too others it is rough weather.

With that said, which sea condition should someone go out in to get their experience in?
That question alone brings up another baseline. Which is. What kind of a vessel are you in?

Now that brings up another baseline. When is it too dangerous to go out in rough seas in the vessel you have?

I really believe when we all posted our thoughts on this subject, we all were thinking of the vessel we have or had and the rough sea conditions that we have faced in the past in those vessels. But all of the vessels and condition were different.

I really do not think any of us would take a 16’ vessel out in 8’ waves just to learn how to handle that vessel in those kinds of waters.

So with out those baselines of, what is rough weather and what kind of vessel is in that rough weather, and when is it to dangerous, we all are just spitting into the wind.

I believe all of our goals here is to help each other and to share our skills with each other so we all can stay safe while doing something we all love to do. But for me I have realized without those baselines I really cannot give the right answer because I do not have all the facts!

I posted my thoughts based on the seamanship I learned from lager lake vessels Captains, and from the vessels I have owned and operated in fresh water and seawater, which in it’s self is apples to oranges.

So until I have those baselines, I will reframe from posting on this issue, in fear of giving bad advice to someone!


Happy and safe cruising to all of you!

H. Foster

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Rough weather to some will be quite different to others based on your potential sea states and your vessles capabilities.

The whole point of this thread was to prompt people to gain experience SLOWLY in their conditions, in their boats.

There is no need to over analyze this issue. All it takes is people deciding to go out in safe but a little rougher than normal conditions, and building from there.

All the talk about simulators, and weather avoidance, and everything else thats been overanalyzed is great, but hasn't built one iota of actual skill.

The only way to learn is to actually cast off a dock line and drive the boat.

Point well taken K. Sanders

But however. Even in simulators they have a baseline to go by.

Happy cruising